Laying timber sleepers as garden border - DPC?
Discussion
My wife has said that she'd like to raise one of the garden borders by the use of sleepers (200mm x 100mm). I've ordered the sleepers but need to get my head around how best to install them.
I'll dig a foundation trench to make sure it is level, but my query is how best to proceed from here. A foundation of concrete? If so wet or dry mix? Or no concrete just sand or just gravel? A damp proof course of visqueen or will this just trap moisture?
The internet is full of varying methods, but as always it's good to hear advice from people who know what they're talking about rather than trying to sell you something.
I'll dig a foundation trench to make sure it is level, but my query is how best to proceed from here. A foundation of concrete? If so wet or dry mix? Or no concrete just sand or just gravel? A damp proof course of visqueen or will this just trap moisture?
The internet is full of varying methods, but as always it's good to hear advice from people who know what they're talking about rather than trying to sell you something.
The enemy of sleepers is moisture. You want to give any moisture the best chance of dispersing away from the sleepers. So no membranes, and really the sleepers want to sit on a draining sub base.
Concrete would also work if you sit the sleepers into it as long as no moisture could be trapped between them, but it's probably overkill. Sleepers will usually sit on a reasonably level surface especially if laid flat rather than on edge.
I've just built a small retaining wall on a slope to hold in the edge of a path. 200mm high with 2 sleepers laid on their sides, sat on a thin bed of MOT type 1 just to level the base. To hold the sleepers in place I cut some 12mm rebar into ~400mm lengths, used a 12mm wood augur drill bit to go through both sleepers and just banged the rebar through both sleepers then put some oak plugs to cover the stop. Used 3 lengths of rebar per 2400mm sleeper, it's absolutely rock solid. I put some shingle against the sleepers to aid drainage as well.
I used green oak sleepers that cost £22 delivered per 2400 x 200 x 100 length, cheaper than most suppliers would do softwood.
Concrete would also work if you sit the sleepers into it as long as no moisture could be trapped between them, but it's probably overkill. Sleepers will usually sit on a reasonably level surface especially if laid flat rather than on edge.
I've just built a small retaining wall on a slope to hold in the edge of a path. 200mm high with 2 sleepers laid on their sides, sat on a thin bed of MOT type 1 just to level the base. To hold the sleepers in place I cut some 12mm rebar into ~400mm lengths, used a 12mm wood augur drill bit to go through both sleepers and just banged the rebar through both sleepers then put some oak plugs to cover the stop. Used 3 lengths of rebar per 2400mm sleeper, it's absolutely rock solid. I put some shingle against the sleepers to aid drainage as well.
I used green oak sleepers that cost £22 delivered per 2400 x 200 x 100 length, cheaper than most suppliers would do softwood.
I used 10" x 5" Jarrah sleepers for the retaining wall just levelled it off and put them down one the wide side and pinned together with rebar, they will not rot and are very heavy so no movement . look a bit rustic though but suited my application, I would always use jarrah now if I can.
PhilboSE said:
The enemy of sleepers is moisture. You want to give any moisture the best chance of dispersing away from the sleepers. So no membranes, and really the sleepers want to sit on a draining sub base.
Concrete would also work if you sit the sleepers into it as long as no moisture could be trapped between them, but it's probably overkill. Sleepers will usually sit on a reasonably level surface especially if laid flat rather than on edge.
I've just built a small retaining wall on a slope to hold in the edge of a path. 200mm high with 2 sleepers laid on their sides, sat on a thin bed of MOT type 1 just to level the base. To hold the sleepers in place I cut some 12mm rebar into ~400mm lengths, used a 12mm wood augur drill bit to go through both sleepers and just banged the rebar through both sleepers then put some oak plugs to cover the stop. Used 3 lengths of rebar per 2400mm sleeper, it's absolutely rock solid. I put some shingle against the sleepers to aid drainage as well.
I used green oak sleepers that cost £22 delivered per 2400 x 200 x 100 length, cheaper than most suppliers would do softwood.
Can I ask where you ordered the sleepers from please? We've moved into a new build recently and need to tackle our back garden in the coming months - it's 750mm higher at the back than the front so we're planning to split it into two levels using sleepers to make raised planters at either side with a few steps using sleepers inbetween. Probably do a border all the way around as well with sleepers sitting on type 1.Concrete would also work if you sit the sleepers into it as long as no moisture could be trapped between them, but it's probably overkill. Sleepers will usually sit on a reasonably level surface especially if laid flat rather than on edge.
I've just built a small retaining wall on a slope to hold in the edge of a path. 200mm high with 2 sleepers laid on their sides, sat on a thin bed of MOT type 1 just to level the base. To hold the sleepers in place I cut some 12mm rebar into ~400mm lengths, used a 12mm wood augur drill bit to go through both sleepers and just banged the rebar through both sleepers then put some oak plugs to cover the stop. Used 3 lengths of rebar per 2400mm sleeper, it's absolutely rock solid. I put some shingle against the sleepers to aid drainage as well.
I used green oak sleepers that cost £22 delivered per 2400 x 200 x 100 length, cheaper than most suppliers would do softwood.
We used "reclaimed" (ie ex railway) sleepers in our last house, two high, "flat side" down. I just laid them in very shallow trenches on gravel.
Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
Comacchio said:
Can I ask where you ordered the sleepers from please? We've moved into a new build recently and need to tackle our back garden in the coming months - it's 750mm higher at the back than the front so we're planning to split it into two levels using sleepers to make raised planters at either side with a few steps using sleepers inbetween. Probably do a border all the way around as well with sleepers sitting on type 1.
No problem - J Timber LtdThey are lovely and square - I was using a landscaping labourer to help and he said they were the best he'd seen. Top tip when building them - use a 12mm butterfly bit to make a bigger hole to countersink the head right in to the timber, then buy some 12mm oak plugs and bang those in then plane off anything that is left proud. It makes a much better finish than leaving the screw heads on show.
Also see if you can get hold of a ratchet gun - these can buzz the screws directly in through 200mm of oak without needing a pilot hole which saves a lot of time.
Octoposse said:
We used "reclaimed" (ie ex railway) sleepers in our last house, two high, "flat side" down. I just laid them in very shallow trenches on gravel.
Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
These aren't supposed to be used any more for landscaping work. Creosote, oil, diesel & faecal matter...why would you want any of that in your garden?Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
PhilboSE said:
No problem - J Timber Ltd
They are lovely and square - I was using a landscaping labourer to help and he said they were the best he'd seen. Top tip when building them - use a 12mm butterfly bit to make a bigger hole to countersink the head right in to the timber, then buy some 12mm oak plugs and bang those in then plane off anything that is left proud. It makes a much better finish than leaving the screw heads on show.
Also see if you can get hold of a ratchet gun - these can buzz the screws directly in through 200mm of oak without needing a pilot hole which saves a lot of time.
Ah - free delivery with M25... Will source somewhere local to Glasgow. Cheers anyway.They are lovely and square - I was using a landscaping labourer to help and he said they were the best he'd seen. Top tip when building them - use a 12mm butterfly bit to make a bigger hole to countersink the head right in to the timber, then buy some 12mm oak plugs and bang those in then plane off anything that is left proud. It makes a much better finish than leaving the screw heads on show.
Also see if you can get hold of a ratchet gun - these can buzz the screws directly in through 200mm of oak without needing a pilot hole which saves a lot of time.
PhilboSE said:
These aren't supposed to be used any more for landscaping work. Creosote, oil, diesel & faecal matter...why would you want any of that in your garden?
This was my reasoning behind choosing Jarrah no preservatives but no rot, will have had years of poo on them but a quick pressure wash and your good to go.We have a few reclaimed railway sleepers dotted around the garden as edgings etc and have been there for years and show no sign of rotting etc.
Look lovely still!
We also don’t lick them or eat food from them so there was never a concern of what had been on them in their previous life.
Look lovely still!
We also don’t lick them or eat food from them so there was never a concern of what had been on them in their previous life.
PhilboSE said:
Octoposse said:
We used "reclaimed" (ie ex railway) sleepers in our last house, two high, "flat side" down. I just laid them in very shallow trenches on gravel.
Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
These aren't supposed to be used any more for landscaping work. Creosote, oil, diesel & faecal matter...why would you want any of that in your garden?Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
t special and acceptable?PhilboSE said:
Octoposse said:
We used "reclaimed" (ie ex railway) sleepers in our last house, two high, "flat side" down. I just laid them in very shallow trenches on gravel.
Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
These aren't supposed to be used any more for landscaping work. Creosote, oil, diesel & faecal matter...why would you want any of that in your garden?Recollection is that they were pretty cheap, ordered from local salvage yard and delivered by tipper truck to front garden.
They're so thoroughly soaked with creosote (and diesel?!) lifespan is many decades. You could see bolt holes and the indentations of plates, etc, so real sense of history.
Downside is that they were unbelievably heavy to move (used rollers as per Stonehenge construction), difficult to cut (chainsaw with brand new chain, and tried to minimise by tailoring size of raised lawn to length of sleepers), and bleed creosote/oil on hot summer days so woe betide trousers and skirts if you sat on them.
Oil / diesel : cars, garden machinery
Faecal matter : horse s
t around roses
We put used sleepers in our last garden as a retaining wall and steps. Worked much better than the neighbour's new wood, which they've already replaced, I noticed, when passing recently.
Taylor James said:
I despair. Faecal matter? FFS who comes up with this cobblers - some millennial at the council? I suppose the one good thing is it provides some clear justification for getting rid of cats in the garden or is cat st special and acceptable?
Despair away. t special and acceptable?Are you aware that trains used to flush their toilets directly onto the tracks?
PhilboSE said:
Taylor James said:
I despair. Faecal matter? FFS who comes up with this cobblers - some millennial at the council? I suppose the one good thing is it provides some clear justification for getting rid of cats in the garden or is cat st special and acceptable?
Despair away. t special and acceptable?Are you aware that trains used to flush their toilets directly onto the tracks?
First off, it's a lottery whether your sleepers came from a busy passenger line, or a redundant freight siding.
But a couple of years stacked in a Railtrack depot, then a year in an architectural salvage yard, meant that there's no chance of anything infectious remaining.
Worth the extra effort IMHO (reclaimed sleepers are much heavier than new) for the interest and history on show. And they don't rot. Whether you'd want to grow veg next to them I'm not sure, but whatever oil and creosote they leached certainly wasn't enough to inhibit lawn growth right up to them.
Most 'railway sleepers' are not railway sleepers these days, they haven't used timber on railways for what, 100yrs or so? It's usually just treated softwood.
Yes I know there are exceptions.
Whatever timber you put in the ground will rot eventually, it's just a matter of how long. How permanent do you want something to be?
Yes I know there are exceptions.
Whatever timber you put in the ground will rot eventually, it's just a matter of how long. How permanent do you want something to be?
Edited by Evoluzione on Thursday 18th February 10:54
I put in some "sleepers" as a retaining wall 14 years ago. They aren't real sleepers but the modern equivalent. These ones were also half sleepers so cut in half down their length. I was only going 4 sleepers and dropping down to one over the length but did have a small return at the high end.
I dug a shallow foundation and lined it with weed blocking fleece which I also lined up the earth wall I was retaining. I filled the foundation with pea shingle, to a about 2 inches beneath ground level. I treated my timber with the best preservative I could find (but tt wasnt Creosote). I gave them twice as many coats as recommended. I laid by sleepers on the shingle, bolting them together with Timberlock screws. I backfilled between the sleeper and the weed resistant mat with pea shingle and in front of them I filled in the 2 inches they were below ground with pea shingle.
14 years later they have never been treated again, and are beginning to show their age. However will last a few years yet. If I have to replace them in 5 years time so be it. It wont be a difficult job.
I dug a shallow foundation and lined it with weed blocking fleece which I also lined up the earth wall I was retaining. I filled the foundation with pea shingle, to a about 2 inches beneath ground level. I treated my timber with the best preservative I could find (but tt wasnt Creosote). I gave them twice as many coats as recommended. I laid by sleepers on the shingle, bolting them together with Timberlock screws. I backfilled between the sleeper and the weed resistant mat with pea shingle and in front of them I filled in the 2 inches they were below ground with pea shingle.
14 years later they have never been treated again, and are beginning to show their age. However will last a few years yet. If I have to replace them in 5 years time so be it. It wont be a difficult job.
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