Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?
Discussion
BritishBlitz87 said:
In summary, no, we just eat too much and losing weight is bloody hard work with temptation on every corner.
That seems to be the most common cause. Unhealthy food is cheap and easy, the discipline to reduce weight and get fit is hard.Now the hidden costs, like diabetes are becoming clear perhaps it is time to treat the obese in the same ways as smokers or alcoholics. The sugar tax seems to have had little effect, what else can be done?
FNG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological
When the allies got to the concentration camps in 1945, it would strangely appear that none of those people had those genes or biology. I don't recall seeing a single person coming out of the camps with a big pot belly saying "been here for 3 years, worked like a slave for hardly any food, but I'm still 20st, I just can't shift it".They were all thin.
It’s easy to say “no fatties in Belsen were there” but it’s also uninformed.
Are you advocating fat camps then? Feed them gruel and/or force them to do star jumps?
On the subject of 'fat shaming', you only feel shame if an individual experiences an element of guilt at their overweight. I'd suggest a positive response would be making plans to get active, lose weight, enjoy life more as a fully mobile individual...rather than the negative response of self-pity and staying in an unhealthy condition.
Ultimately it is the individual's choice of course, but experts are undivided in that overweight is largely through personal choice, and overweight leads to all sorts of diseases and often early death.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
FNG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological
When the allies got to the concentration camps in 1945, it would strangely appear that none of those people had those genes or biology. I don't recall seeing a single person coming out of the camps with a big pot belly saying "been here for 3 years, worked like a slave for hardly any food, but I'm still 20st, I just can't shift it".They were all thin.
It’s easy to say “no fatties in Belsen were there” but it’s also uninformed.
Are you advocating fat camps then? Feed them gruel and/or force them to do star jumps?
How that comes about is irrelevant but also slightly ridiculous because I defy anyone to live their life with that sort of calorie deficiency, voluntarily, without being or ultimately becoming anorexic/bulimic. Which is then back to mental illness again.
Nazi concentration camps are not much use as a case study provided one accepts that people shouldn’t ever be treated that way. Pushing the boundaries of acceptable discussion, would it stop obese people being obese? Yes. Would it be morally justified though?
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological and 'how we live today'.
How we live today is the biggest contributor, too many ready meals or fast food loaded with sugar and fats, not enough home prepared healthy food, not enough exercise.Genetics and biology, yes, our bodies are not designed to consume large quantities of calories and not burn them off without converting them to fat.
popeyewhite said:
FNG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological
When the allies got to the concentration camps in 1945, it would strangely appear that none of those people had those genes or biology. I don't recall seeing a single person coming out of the camps with a big pot belly saying "been here for 3 years, worked like a slave for hardly any food, but I'm still 20st, I just can't shift it".They were all thin.
It’s easy to say “no fatties in Belsen were there” but it’s also uninformed.
Are you advocating fat camps then? Feed them gruel and/or force them to do star jumps?
On the subject of 'fat shaming', you only feel shame if an individual experiences an element of guilt at their overweight. I'd suggest a positive response would be making plans to get active, lose weight, enjoy life more as a fully mobile individual...rather than the negative response of self-pity and staying in an unhealthy condition.
Ultimately it is the individual's choice of course, but experts are undivided in that overweight is largely through personal choice, and overweight leads to all sorts of diseases and often early death.
Hand waving it away as merely a matter of personal choice will not help find solutions. There’s much more nuance to people’s relationship with food, their physiology, their mental health and their addictions if it comes to it, than saying be more disciplined.
MKnight702 said:
How we live today is the biggest contributor, too many ready meals or fast food loaded with sugar and fats, not enough home prepared healthy food, not enough exercise.
Genetics and biology, yes, our bodies are not designed to consume large quantities of calories and not burn them off without converting them to fat.
Most people do not live like that, and most people are not unhealthily overweight.Genetics and biology, yes, our bodies are not designed to consume large quantities of calories and not burn them off without converting them to fat.
okgo said:
kambites said:
The counter argument is that anyone with that degree of fitness is likely to know that the BMI scale isn't really suitable for them and hence that they can ignore it. For those who don't know enough about fitness and health to understand that BMI has its limits, it's probably quite accurate.
I tend to agree but cycling isn't really something that gives people 'the rugger build' you usually hear about on such threads. I was surprised overweight was set as low as it is. Anyway, Obese probably is quite reliable.For example men really shouldn't be over about 20% body-fat, and are healthy right down to about 5%. If we looked at someone of average muscular structure who had 5% body-fat we'd think they were underweight. If we looked at someone of average muscular structure who had 25% body-fat we would probably think they looked of a healthy weight.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 17th June 11:51
okgo said:
kambites said:
The counter argument is that anyone with that degree of fitness is likely to know that the BMI scale isn't really suitable for them and hence that they can ignore it. For those who don't know enough about fitness and health to understand that BMI has its limits, it's probably quite accurate.
I tend to agree but cycling isn't really something that gives people 'the rugger build' you usually hear about on such threads. I was surprised overweight was set as low as it is. Anyway, Obese probably is quite reliable.As I said above I’m 112kg and 6’3” which gives me a BMI of 30.7
When I was 17, 18 I was slightly heavier than this but I cycled and weight trained so had little fat and a six pack. I was absolutely not a muscle mountain but neither was I in any way obese.
FNG said:
popeyewhite said:
FNG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological
When the allies got to the concentration camps in 1945, it would strangely appear that none of those people had those genes or biology. I don't recall seeing a single person coming out of the camps with a big pot belly saying "been here for 3 years, worked like a slave for hardly any food, but I'm still 20st, I just can't shift it".They were all thin.
It’s easy to say “no fatties in Belsen were there” but it’s also uninformed.
Are you advocating fat camps then? Feed them gruel and/or force them to do star jumps?
On the subject of 'fat shaming', you only feel shame if an individual experiences an element of guilt at their overweight. I'd suggest a positive response would be making plans to get active, lose weight, enjoy life more as a fully mobile individual...rather than the negative response of self-pity and staying in an unhealthy condition.
Ultimately it is the individual's choice of course, but experts are undivided in that overweight is largely through personal choice, and overweight leads to all sorts of diseases and often early death.
Hand waving it away as merely a matter of personal choice will not help find solutions. There’s much more nuance to people’s relationship with food, their physiology, their mental health and their addictions if it comes to it, than saying be more disciplined.
I'm bigger than I ever have been at the moment, not really fat by societies standards but fat by mine.
I know exactly why and how it's happened and what I'd have to do to get rid of it.
Inclination and motivation are the reasons at the moment and I'm being a bit lazy.
I'm sure you could word it to sound more socially acceptable because I've got a young child, new job and lockdown restrictions have conspired to impact me mentally causing me to gain weight.
At uni I noticed a lot of the fitter students from freshers week quickly discovered their “fat genes”.
Mainly because
1. Few of them knew how to cook so lived on cheap takeaways
2. They couldn’t be bothered to keep playing sports once they realised they weren’t that good
3. Their hydration was in the form of cheap booze
So a result of massively increased calories and reduced calorie burn resulted in fat students.
Obviously some people use food for comfort, however it seems a lot of fatties are simply lazy.
Mainly because
1. Few of them knew how to cook so lived on cheap takeaways
2. They couldn’t be bothered to keep playing sports once they realised they weren’t that good
3. Their hydration was in the form of cheap booze
So a result of massively increased calories and reduced calorie burn resulted in fat students.
Obviously some people use food for comfort, however it seems a lot of fatties are simply lazy.
kambites said:
For example men really shouldn't be over about 20% body-fat, and are healthy right down to about 5%. If we looked at someone of average muscular structure who had 5% body-fat we'd think they were underweight. If we looked at someone of average muscular structure who had 25% body-fat we would probably think they looked of a healthy weight.
I had a DEXA scan for body composition some years ago.At the time I had a BMI of 27.1 and a body fat percentage of 22.3%.
To get to 25, I'd have had a body fat percentage of 15%.
For 22.5, middle of healthy I would have had a body fat percentage of 6%.
For 20, bottom of healthy, I would have had 0% body fat, and would also have had to lose either 3kg of lean tissue or my entire skeleton.
otolith said:
I had a DEXA scan for body composition some years ago.
At the time I had a BMI of 27.1 and a body fat percentage of 22.3%.
To get to 25, I'd have had a body fat percentage of 15%.
For 22.5, middle of healthy I would have had a body fat percentage of 6%.
For 20, bottom of healthy, I would have had 0% body fat, and would also have had to lose either 3kg of lean tissue or my entire skeleton.
Yup, as above for people with unusual muscle mass it doesn't work. But I'd imagine the huge majority of people with a BMI of over 25 would have a body-fat percentage of well over 20. At the time I had a BMI of 27.1 and a body fat percentage of 22.3%.
To get to 25, I'd have had a body fat percentage of 15%.
For 22.5, middle of healthy I would have had a body fat percentage of 6%.
For 20, bottom of healthy, I would have had 0% body fat, and would also have had to lose either 3kg of lean tissue or my entire skeleton.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 17th June 12:21
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological and 'how we live today'.
I'm a little sceptical.
Living with obesity: 'My genes mean I’m hard-wired to store fat' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57419041
It's not genetics. Over eating can be an addiction like many other things whether that's smoking, drugs, booze, work (yes some people are addicted to work), shopping, cars (that's me).....most addictions are caused by childhood trauma. I'm a little sceptical.
Living with obesity: 'My genes mean I’m hard-wired to store fat' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57419041
This Ted Talk is 18 mins worth watching and explains it briefly....the speaker Gabor Mate has a lot of material on YouTube and has written some great books on this subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66cYcSak6nE
Genes may contribute but fatties are fat because they eat more than they burn.
We should fat shame it’s disgusting, people are quick enough to remark when someone is ‘thin’ and the fashion industry bans models who have a BMI (yes I know it’s not infallible) that regards them as underweight yet being overweight is deemed acceptable.
No one walked out of any POW camp fat, POWs in Europe had a 98%-99% survival rate.
There has been an increase in obese people due to our access to quick / easy junk food, a reduction in physical / manual jobs and an increase in commuting via car.
The ‘fat’ genes haven’t just appeared overnight yet nowadays it’s every lazy fekkers excuse.
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
We should fat shame it’s disgusting, people are quick enough to remark when someone is ‘thin’ and the fashion industry bans models who have a BMI (yes I know it’s not infallible) that regards them as underweight yet being overweight is deemed acceptable.
No one walked out of any POW camp fat, POWs in Europe had a 98%-99% survival rate.
There has been an increase in obese people due to our access to quick / easy junk food, a reduction in physical / manual jobs and an increase in commuting via car.
The ‘fat’ genes haven’t just appeared overnight yet nowadays it’s every lazy fekkers excuse.
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
ChocolateFrog said:
FNG said:
popeyewhite said:
FNG said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
eldar said:
BBC article suggests it is genetic, biological
When the allies got to the concentration camps in 1945, it would strangely appear that none of those people had those genes or biology. I don't recall seeing a single person coming out of the camps with a big pot belly saying "been here for 3 years, worked like a slave for hardly any food, but I'm still 20st, I just can't shift it".They were all thin.
It’s easy to say “no fatties in Belsen were there” but it’s also uninformed.
Are you advocating fat camps then? Feed them gruel and/or force them to do star jumps?
On the subject of 'fat shaming', you only feel shame if an individual experiences an element of guilt at their overweight. I'd suggest a positive response would be making plans to get active, lose weight, enjoy life more as a fully mobile individual...rather than the negative response of self-pity and staying in an unhealthy condition.
Ultimately it is the individual's choice of course, but experts are undivided in that overweight is largely through personal choice, and overweight leads to all sorts of diseases and often early death.
Hand waving it away as merely a matter of personal choice will not help find solutions. There’s much more nuance to people’s relationship with food, their physiology, their mental health and their addictions if it comes to it, than saying be more disciplined.
I'm bigger than I ever have been at the moment, not really fat by societies standards but fat by mine.
I know exactly why and how it's happened and what I'd have to do to get rid of it.
Inclination and motivation are the reasons at the moment and I'm being a bit lazy.
I'm sure you could word it to sound more socially acceptable because I've got a young child, new job and lockdown restrictions have conspired to impact me mentally causing me to gain weight.
I’m in a similar position - time commitments and other issues meaning I eat and drink more than I work off. Don’t dispute it.
And yes lots of people are lazy or have given up on themselves.
But it remains more nuanced than the self discipline, just do exercise, don’t eat crap mantra that these threads keep circling back to.
Lord.Vader said:
Genes may contribute but fatties are fat because they eat more than they burn.
We should fat shame it’s disgusting, people are quick enough to remark when someone is ‘thin’ and the fashion industry bans models who have a BMI (yes I know it’s not infallible) that regards them as underweight yet being overweight is deemed acceptable.
No one walked out of any POW camp fat, POWs in Europe had a 98%-99% survival rate.
There has been an increase in obese people due to our access to quick / easy junk food, a reduction in physical / manual jobs and an increase in commuting via car.
The ‘fat’ genes haven’t just appeared overnight yet nowadays it’s every lazy fekkers excuse.
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
Ok so let’s accept for a moment that it’s that simple. We should fat shame it’s disgusting, people are quick enough to remark when someone is ‘thin’ and the fashion industry bans models who have a BMI (yes I know it’s not infallible) that regards them as underweight yet being overweight is deemed acceptable.
No one walked out of any POW camp fat, POWs in Europe had a 98%-99% survival rate.
There has been an increase in obese people due to our access to quick / easy junk food, a reduction in physical / manual jobs and an increase in commuting via car.
The ‘fat’ genes haven’t just appeared overnight yet nowadays it’s every lazy fekkers excuse.
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
Aside from fat shaming, which isn’t going to help those great many people whose emotional crutch is food and which is very often the source of the problem, what do you propose we do about it?
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