Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?
Discussion
From my point of view, this is all quite simple:
People find unhealthy food and drink really easy and enjoyable. Restaurants, takeaways, chips, pizza, Chinese, KFC, McDonalds, Chinese, Indian, ready meals, crisps, chocolate, beer, wine, cocktails.
People find exercise to be difficult, unpleasant and hard work. Sitting watching Netflix, sitting eating and drinking, or playing on your X Box is far more enjoyable.
Jobs and lifestyles have become ever more sedentary and less active.
Combine all the above and it is hardly surprising that people are getting fatter.
Decades ago you practically had to make an effort to get fat, now you have to make an effort to not get fat, and many people choose not to make the effort.
No one makes a choice to get fat, but they make a choice to not put the effort in to prevent getting fat.
It isn’t simple. You can’t just instruct people to make the effort to get thin, because it won’t work.
People find unhealthy food and drink really easy and enjoyable. Restaurants, takeaways, chips, pizza, Chinese, KFC, McDonalds, Chinese, Indian, ready meals, crisps, chocolate, beer, wine, cocktails.
People find exercise to be difficult, unpleasant and hard work. Sitting watching Netflix, sitting eating and drinking, or playing on your X Box is far more enjoyable.
Jobs and lifestyles have become ever more sedentary and less active.
Combine all the above and it is hardly surprising that people are getting fatter.
Decades ago you practically had to make an effort to get fat, now you have to make an effort to not get fat, and many people choose not to make the effort.
No one makes a choice to get fat, but they make a choice to not put the effort in to prevent getting fat.
It isn’t simple. You can’t just instruct people to make the effort to get thin, because it won’t work.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 17th June 12:57
Lord.Vader said:
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
A lot of people are confusing "simple" with "easy".It is simple to lose weight: just eat less.
It is simple to get rich: just invest in the right stocks.
It is simple to play golf as well as Tiger Woods: just swing like he does.
Telling people that they are lazy, greedy, and they could lose weight if they just tried is entirely missing the point. If it were easy then there wouldn't be any fat people just like there wouldn't be any poor people or any bad golfers.
Now having said that I do happen to agree with the original premise of the thread. Overall, genetic factors are small and affect only a tiny minority of people. Society, lifestyle, and mental health pressures all have a much bigger effect.
I could stand to lose a couple of stone and indeed I have done so in the past, several times. But it's hard. It's hard to get the motivation to exercise. It's hard to ignore the fridge. It's hard to say "no" to mates who want to spend the afternoon in the pub.
Until we can have a mature discussion as to the causes of obesity, we aren't going to get anywhere. And whilst blaming your genes isn't going to work, nor will calling people lazy or disgusting.
kambites said:
otolith said:
I had a DEXA scan for body composition some years ago.
At the time I had a BMI of 27.1 and a body fat percentage of 22.3%.
To get to 25, I'd have had a body fat percentage of 15%.
For 22.5, middle of healthy I would have had a body fat percentage of 6%.
For 20, bottom of healthy, I would have had 0% body fat, and would also have had to lose either 3kg of lean tissue or my entire skeleton.
Yup, as above for people with unusual muscle mass it doesn't work. But I'd imagine the huge majority of people with a BMI of over 25 would have a body-fat percentage of well over 20. At the time I had a BMI of 27.1 and a body fat percentage of 22.3%.
To get to 25, I'd have had a body fat percentage of 15%.
For 22.5, middle of healthy I would have had a body fat percentage of 6%.
For 20, bottom of healthy, I would have had 0% body fat, and would also have had to lose either 3kg of lean tissue or my entire skeleton.
What I did (do) have is short legs and a long torso, and a moderately stocky build.
FNG said:
And if you’re right (I think you’re wrong) how do you get someone to change from that mindset to one that will get them to lose the lard? Tell them to pull themselves together?
That is one way. How did we reduce smoking? Heavy taxation, restricting purchase and consumption, great social pressure. A lot of stick, little carrot.What would you see as being effective?
deckster said:
Lord.Vader said:
Stop eating so much and you won’t be as fat it really is that simple.
A lot of people are confusing "simple" with "easy".It is simple to lose weight: just eat less.
It is simple to get rich: just invest in the right stocks.
It is simple to play golf as well as Tiger Woods: just swing like he does.
Telling people that they are lazy, greedy, and they could lose weight if they just tried is entirely missing the point. If it were easy then there wouldn't be any fat people just like there wouldn't be any poor people or any bad golfers.
Now having said that I do happen to agree with the original premise of the thread. Overall, genetic factors are small and affect only a tiny minority of people. Society, lifestyle, and mental health pressures all have a much bigger effect.
I could stand to lose a couple of stone and indeed I have done so in the past, several times. But it's hard. It's hard to get the motivation to exercise. It's hard to ignore the fridge. It's hard to say "no" to mates who want to spend the afternoon in the pub.
Until we can have a mature discussion as to the causes of obesity, we aren't going to get anywhere. And whilst blaming your genes isn't going to work, nor will calling people lazy or disgusting.
my 2c
Biggest factors influencing your weight are
easy availability of fresh healthy food.
dietary habits of your family and peers
If your partner eats pizza all the time likely you will too.
If you don't have shops in your daily path selling nice fresh unprocessed food, you are likely to take the easy route and eat processed food. (which is basically anything with a wrapper)
99% of UK residents face an uphill battle. It's much easier in places where markets and healthy eating is the norm, to follow suit.
Biggest factors influencing your weight are
easy availability of fresh healthy food.
dietary habits of your family and peers
If your partner eats pizza all the time likely you will too.
If you don't have shops in your daily path selling nice fresh unprocessed food, you are likely to take the easy route and eat processed food. (which is basically anything with a wrapper)
99% of UK residents face an uphill battle. It's much easier in places where markets and healthy eating is the norm, to follow suit.
eldar said:
FNG said:
And if you’re right (I think you’re wrong) how do you get someone to change from that mindset to one that will get them to lose the lard? Tell them to pull themselves together?
That is one way. How did we reduce smoking? Heavy taxation, restricting purchase and consumption, great social pressure. A lot of stick, little carrot.What would you see as being effective?
Punitive taxes on sugary, takeaway, processed or fast foods, yes that may have an impact. Can you see it happening? I can imagine the backlash.
Without high taxation and restricting purchase options, you're left with social pressure. Basically fat shaming. Not going to make many people change their ways when if they had any self respect and motivation, they'd already be losing weight or wouldn't have gained it in the first place.
First step might be getting away from the "fat prisons", "eat less", "it's laziness pure and simple" mindset that some have outlined on here and start treating it as addiction, depression, self esteem, self image. Alongside positive reinforcement of the benefits and the fact that the vast majority of people can do it if they try, but that it's hard and it takes time.
All that said, it was interesting that the BBC article mentioned that essentially there's a body-memory aspect, so if you get large then diet, your body can strive to recover to that size again. That's biological and evolutionary, and I don't know how you combat that to be honest.
It does also suggest though that recognising that people find it incredibly hard to lose weight and keep it off is the very first stepping stone along the way. The lack of empathy shown in some of this thread is depressingly familiar and I'd suggest combating that is as important as helping individuals to recognise their potential and fight their demons.
BritishBlitz87 said:
In summary, no, we just eat too much and losing weight is bloody hard work with temptation on every corner.
This, plus as you get older it all catches up with you and you can no longer get away with eating what you want.Losing weight is really hard and takes a long time, people just want a miracle cure without putting any effort in, hence all the faddy diets. A few months ago I realised just how much weight I had put on over lockdown and decided enough is enough. So overnight I cut out all sugary snacks (no sweets, chocolate, cake, biscuits, ice cream etc.), crisps, alcohol (didn't drink much anyway), takeaways and sugary drinks.
My diet now is essentially toast for breakfast, brown bread and chicken sandwich for lunch (no sauces) and a normal dinner. I also go for an hours walk at least every other day.
So after two months of the most boring diet on the plannet I have lost a grand total of 2KG.... I also know that if I go back to how I was I would put that 2KG back on in a matter of weeks so this is it forever now if I want to get slimmer.
You can see why people think life is too short and just eat what they want. Ultimately food (especially processed food) is cheaper and more accessible than ever before and people are lazier than ever before. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out.
The amount of food you need each day to maintain you weight is a lot less than most people think.
kambites said:
otolith said:
I was spending a lot of time in the gym at the time
That, in itself, makes you far from normal. But I stand by my idea that the vast majority of people with a BMI over over 25 are carrying too much body-fat.
I think that the variation in BMI at a given body fat % precludes it from telling you a huge amount about individuals.
Look at the scatterplot.
https://www.bodystat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/0...
thebraketester said:
If it were genetics and biological then how is it that some obese people chose to and do lose weight.
Or is it just easier to blame something/someone instead of getting up out of your reinforced chair and doing something about it.
For a start it’s plainly not genetic or biological for everyone. Or is it just easier to blame something/someone instead of getting up out of your reinforced chair and doing something about it.
So some people can indeed reverse it.
Logically others cannot or it’s far far harder. Does that mean you can keep sneering at all of them regardless.
The government could help in a big way. Take a country like Australia last time I went they didn’t have a problem with fatties (this may well have changed) everywhere you went there were very well equipped parks for the kids with Adult fitness equipment next to them and communal BBQ facilities everywhere. Lots of sports in school rather than the hour a week our kids get. Education into healthy eating, sports, after school clubs (sport focused).
If the government put a fraction of the effort into such initiatives that they do into fighting covid then there wouldn’t be such a problem.
It’s got to start in school as it’s not going to start at home sat on the sofa. Interestingly at drop off today a parent had their kids drinks bottle handed back to them as it contained juice not water. Which was interesting and I know snacks are all fruit and milk options so maybe it is happening at school.
If the government put a fraction of the effort into such initiatives that they do into fighting covid then there wouldn’t be such a problem.
It’s got to start in school as it’s not going to start at home sat on the sofa. Interestingly at drop off today a parent had their kids drinks bottle handed back to them as it contained juice not water. Which was interesting and I know snacks are all fruit and milk options so maybe it is happening at school.
FNG said:
We didn't tell smokers to pull themselves together, that's not one way of tackling it at all.
Punitive taxes on sugary, takeaway, processed or fast foods, yes that may have an impact. Can you see it happening? I can imagine the backlash.
Without high taxation and restricting purchase options, you're left with social pressure. Basically fat shaming. Not going to make many people change their ways when if they had any self respect and motivation, they'd already be losing weight or wouldn't have gained it in the first place.
First step might be getting away from the "fat prisons", "eat less", "it's laziness pure and simple" mindset that some have outlined on here and start treating it as addiction, depression, self esteem, self image. Alongside positive reinforcement of the benefits and the fact that the vast majority of people can do it if they try, but that it's hard and it takes time.
All that said, it was interesting that the BBC article mentioned that essentially there's a body-memory aspect, so if you get large then diet, your body can strive to recover to that size again. That's biological and evolutionary, and I don't know how you combat that to be honest.
It does also suggest though that recognising that people find it incredibly hard to lose weight and keep it off is the very first stepping stone along the way. The lack of empathy shown in some of this thread is depressingly familiar and I'd suggest combating that is as important as helping individuals to recognise their potential and fight their demons.
So, in summary, the opposite approach to smoking cessation, much more carrot than stick.Punitive taxes on sugary, takeaway, processed or fast foods, yes that may have an impact. Can you see it happening? I can imagine the backlash.
Without high taxation and restricting purchase options, you're left with social pressure. Basically fat shaming. Not going to make many people change their ways when if they had any self respect and motivation, they'd already be losing weight or wouldn't have gained it in the first place.
First step might be getting away from the "fat prisons", "eat less", "it's laziness pure and simple" mindset that some have outlined on here and start treating it as addiction, depression, self esteem, self image. Alongside positive reinforcement of the benefits and the fact that the vast majority of people can do it if they try, but that it's hard and it takes time.
All that said, it was interesting that the BBC article mentioned that essentially there's a body-memory aspect, so if you get large then diet, your body can strive to recover to that size again. That's biological and evolutionary, and I don't know how you combat that to be honest.
It does also suggest though that recognising that people find it incredibly hard to lose weight and keep it off is the very first stepping stone along the way. The lack of empathy shown in some of this thread is depressingly familiar and I'd suggest combating that is as important as helping individuals to recognise their potential and fight their demons.
As an ex smoker, the fat shaming type social pressure was a very effective incentive to stop.
I suspect the answer is to make obesity less socially acceptable, much like other socially harmful habits. The trick is how to do that quickly, effectively and with respect.
BoRED S2upid said:
The government could help in a big way. Take a country like Australia last time I went they didn’t have a problem with fatties (this may well have changed) everywhere you went there were very well equipped parks for the kids with Adult fitness equipment next to them and communal BBQ facilities everywhere. Lots of sports in school rather than the hour a week our kids get. Education into healthy eating, sports, after school clubs (sport focused).
If the government put a fraction of the effort into such initiatives that they do into fighting covid then there wouldn’t be such a problem.
It’s got to start in school as it’s not going to start at home sat on the sofa. Interestingly at drop off today a parent had their kids drinks bottle handed back to them as it contained juice not water. Which was interesting and I know snacks are all fruit and milk options so maybe it is happening at school.
I went there in 2003 and was very surprised at the large number of obese people I saw. They tended to be either very fit or very fat.If the government put a fraction of the effort into such initiatives that they do into fighting covid then there wouldn’t be such a problem.
It’s got to start in school as it’s not going to start at home sat on the sofa. Interestingly at drop off today a parent had their kids drinks bottle handed back to them as it contained juice not water. Which was interesting and I know snacks are all fruit and milk options so maybe it is happening at school.
dirky dirk said:
rubbish its a lifestyle choice
alot to do with a victim mindset turn to food for comfort
If it’s to do with mindset and comfort eating then isn’t that mental illness?alot to do with a victim mindset turn to food for comfort
If someone is doing someone they know is bad but are still doing it for comfort, that sounds like mental illness to me.
It’s about unhelpful associations with food.
Saying it’s a lifestyle choice is like saying being a junkie or an alcoholic is a lifestyle choice.
Yes they’re making a choice to eat but there’s obviously complex mental aspects to it that override and influence their choice negatively.
Monkeylegend said:
I went there in 2003 and was very surprised at the large number of obese people I saw. They tended to be either very fit or very fat.
Absolutely, they seem to be either1)I live in Sydney and I constantly wear tight gym pants to go to buy coffee with my little dog on a lead.
2)I am a total Bogan living in the western suburbs of Melbourne and I am massively over weight and rarely wear shoes.
otolith said:
Yeah that looks about what I'd expect. Look how few black dots there are to the right of the 25BMI point which fall below the 25% body-fat line. I'd say judging by that graph that around 99% of people with a BMI above 25 have a body-fat percentage above 25. Edited by kambites on Thursday 17th June 13:59
This thread seems to suggest that if your above a certain waist size, your fat, and below a certain waist size your not fat.
In reality it doesnt work like that, people store fat in the most convenient places on their body, some carry it around the waist, some the legs, some the bum, and others all over.
You could be a size 36" waist, but still have a 40% body fat, or you could be a 44" waist, and have a 25% body fat, but carry the fat around your waist.
Just because your not big in size, doesnt mean your not fat.
I suspect that if they changed the measurement from BMI to Body Fat, alot of the people posting on here, would suddenly need to start dieting.
In reality it doesnt work like that, people store fat in the most convenient places on their body, some carry it around the waist, some the legs, some the bum, and others all over.
You could be a size 36" waist, but still have a 40% body fat, or you could be a 44" waist, and have a 25% body fat, but carry the fat around your waist.
Just because your not big in size, doesnt mean your not fat.
I suspect that if they changed the measurement from BMI to Body Fat, alot of the people posting on here, would suddenly need to start dieting.
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