Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?

Obesity, is it really an illness or a lifestyle choice?

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Discussion

MC Bodge

21,551 posts

174 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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PositronicRay said:
I'm 63 5`10 and 11.5 stone.

A doctor I hadn't seen before remarked , 'have you always been so slight'?
It's not particularly light. My Dad is probably a similar size in his early 70s.

I suppose it could depend where you weight lies, though.

If you are very lightly muscled, with little fat anywhere other than a promenant round gut/waist area, then they may have a point.

jagnet

4,094 posts

201 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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jayymannon said:
Does anyone know how much nutritional training GPs in the UK get?
Not much, according to medical students:


knk

1,265 posts

270 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
knk said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
popeyewhite said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I think instead of arguing who I am or who I'm not I would prefer you actually.. etc etc
Not really bothered what you'd like, just curious as to your quals as you appear to have advised a client his GP was incorrect. Yet you yourself are not any kind of doctor.

Perhaps it's just the way you worded it.
Actually yes I am. How I worded it was basically that he might want to have a discussion with his GP as to why they think he should go on a statin because what research tells us is that other things other than overall cholesterol are the risk factors, and those risk factors were perfectly fine for him. I advised him to read the book written by the cardiac consultant I've already mentioned too. Statins have their risks and do effect the quality of life of many people, not everyone, but many. He needs to know whether the benefit to him as an individual is worth that risk. He was not told about the differences between absolute and relative benefits, so I told pointed him to the NNT website so he could make an informed decision.

What I didn't say was that his GP wasn't giving him the information to make an informed decision about his health, and we know we should all have the relevant information to give INFORMED CONSENT when taking a drug.

We'll leave it there smile sorry for seeming argumentative. Statins in particular have been bad for my family historically and ruined the quality of life of someone who still died of a heart attack and were given very little advice on diet (other than to eat more while grains......!).

Cheers.

Edited by TyrannosauRoss Lex on Sunday 26th June 07:19
Are you a registered medical practitioner or are you a "Dr Gillian McKeith" type doctor who is giving out medical advice while trying to make people think they are medically qualified?
I have already answered this, I'm a registered, insured primary HCP, yes. For confidentiality reasons I'm leaving it at that. But what is it that I have said that makes you think I might be talking bks? smile

Anyway, I'm off for a 13 mile run to burn off some of my terribly fatty breakfast of avocado and salmon wink
So you are not a Registered Medical Practitioner (be aware, that is the legally protected term and what most people mean when they thinking of a "Medical Doctor").

So, of the HCPs that are registered, I am sure you would have told us if you were a dietician. I would place money on you being a chiropodist or a podiatrist.

You are very disparaging of doctors.

Mr Whippy

28,943 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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jayymannon said:
I wouldn't have even considered talking to a GP about such things as I assumed it wasn't an area in which they had much knowledge.
Almost all my health issues over the last 20 years have been diet related I think… and the GP has never addressed my diet in any meaningful way.

My single biggest change was after a York Test… milk. Knocking though out of my diet was like a cascade of improvements.

Anyone going to doctors with chronic issues like heartburn or whatever should just get tested for all these things.
Diagnostics to prevention, rather than nonsensical advice like eat more small meals.
Oh, milk settles your stomach, have a small glass of milk. Yeah… great advice haha.

popeyewhite

19,618 posts

119 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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knk said:
So you are not a Registered Medical Practitioner (be aware, that is the legally protected term and what most people mean when they thinking of a "Medical Doctor").

So, of the HCPs that are registered, I am sure you would have told us if you were a dietician. I would place money on you being a chiropodist or a podiatrist.

You are very disparaging of doctors.
My guess is he's a physio with a Diploma. While it's not unknown for GPs to make mistakes I don't think it shows professional integrity or is particularly responsible to give advice to a client contradicting what their GP has told them... for a number of reasons.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

34,941 posts

211 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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popeyewhite said:
knk said:
So you are not a Registered Medical Practitioner (be aware, that is the legally protected term and what most people mean when they thinking of a "Medical Doctor").

So, of the HCPs that are registered, I am sure you would have told us if you were a dietician. I would place money on you being a chiropodist or a podiatrist.

You are very disparaging of doctors.
My guess is he's a physio with a Diploma. While it's not unknown for GPs to make mistakes I don't think it shows professional integrity or is particularly responsible to give advice to a client contradicting what their GP has told them... for a number of reasons.
For the reference of doubt, I'm NOT anti-GPs.... Far from it. It just bugs me a little when a few are willing to give medications without knowing why they're doing so in this instance. They're absolutely doing it with good intention, I have NO doubt about that. But for the patient in question it would make them less healthy than they were without them, even without any dietary changes.

Please accept my apologies if I came across as totally anti-medicine and GPs, I am not. Everyone practices a little differently, many are good, some are not. Same with anything in life.

knk

1,265 posts

270 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
knk said:
So you are not a Registered Medical Practitioner (be aware, that is the legally protected term and what most people mean when they thinking of a "Medical Doctor").

So, of the HCPs that are registered, I am sure you would have told us if you were a dietician. I would place money on you being a chiropodist or a podiatrist.

You are very disparaging of doctors.
My guess is he's a physio with a Diploma. While it's not unknown for GPs to make mistakes I don't think it shows professional integrity or is particularly responsible to give advice to a client contradicting what their GP has told them... for a number of reasons.
I don't think so.
Most Physios are proud of being a physio and work well in multidisciplinary teams.
Chiropodist I think. Maybe done some nutrition/ lifestyle medicine courses.

dirky dirk

3,009 posts

169 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
Nobody wants to move anymore
Everything gets Delivered
It’s a lifestyle choice and possibly
Surroundings and mindset thing

Mr Whippy

28,943 posts

240 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
knk said:
So you are not a Registered Medical Practitioner (be aware, that is the legally protected term and what most people mean when they thinking of a "Medical Doctor").

So, of the HCPs that are registered, I am sure you would have told us if you were a dietician. I would place money on you being a chiropodist or a podiatrist.

You are very disparaging of doctors.
My guess is he's a physio with a Diploma. While it's not unknown for GPs to make mistakes I don't think it shows professional integrity or is particularly responsible to give advice to a client contradicting what their GP has told them... for a number of reasons.
Great advice… don’t take any advice except from your GP.

Making you believe their advice is infallible.

Great until you end up terminally Ill or beyond satisfactory help because of their poor advice.



Multiple doctors have told me to wear sunscreen for vitiligo but when I ask how that’ll impact vitamin D they say I can eat it in my diet.

Or just slap on steroids.
No seeming desire to understand the underlying cause. Just buy ‘medicine’

They’re out of their depth with mild chronic issues until they’re serious problems, at which point it’s too late.

If this is the future of UK/western medicine, letting people slip from mild chronic illness into real medical issues over years, then it’s time to start at least listening to advice from other sources.

Thankyou4calling

10,595 posts

172 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
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dirky dirk said:
Nobody wants to move anymore
Everything gets Delivered
It’s a lifestyle choice and possibly
Surroundings and mindset thing
I read this hoping it was going to rhyme.

I am disappoint.

So I’ve re written it.

Nobody ain’t movin
It’s all deliveroovin
It’s a lifestyle dem choosin
And a mindset we’re loosin

keo

2,019 posts

169 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
Thankyou4calling said:
I read this hoping it was going to rhyme.

I am disappoint.

So I’ve re written it.

Nobody ain’t movin
It’s all deliveroovin
It’s a lifestyle dem choosin
And a mindset we’re loosin
Just lazy fat s who need to move more and eat less. Simple. If you are fat/ alcoholic/ druggie I’d refuse you at the nhs door

smn159

12,440 posts

216 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
Thankyou4calling said:
dirky dirk said:
Nobody wants to move anymore
Everything gets Delivered
It’s a lifestyle choice and possibly
Surroundings and mindset thing
I read this hoping it was going to rhyme.

I am disappoint.

So I’ve re written it.

Nobody ain’t movin
It’s all deliveroovin
It’s a lifestyle dem choosin
And a mindset we’re loosin
It's a quatrain but the rhyme scene is unfamiliar. I think that the capitalisation of 'Delivered' might be important.

Yours is definitely better though

BorkBorkBork

731 posts

50 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
Neuroscientists identified a specific aspect of the notion of freedom (the conscious control of the start of the action) and researched it: the experimental results seemed to indicate that there is no such conscious control, hence the conclusion that free will does not exist.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC48874...

Given that free will is an illusion, I’d argue that obesity is neither a choice nor an illness. It’s a result of cheap, nutritionally bankrupt food which high in fat, salt and refined carbohydrates, along with the neurosis of the modern human.

If you are fat, it’s bad luck. Similarly, if you are a physical specimen, it’s good luck. Choice has very little to do with it.

popeyewhite

19,618 posts

119 months

Sunday 26th June 2022
quotequote all
BorkBorkBork said:
Given that free will is an illusion,.
It's not. The paper is based on the fact the author thinks free will can be quantitively measured through incredibly unreliable psychometric tests that attempt to evaluate three qualitative philosophical concepts associated with free will: choice, reasoning and veto (I think). It's all a bit of a mess, unsurprisingly. I didn't read the whole lot, the conclusion was enough. You could come back when you have a globally agreed definition of 'free will'?


BorkBorkBork

731 posts

50 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
BorkBorkBork said:
Given that free will is an illusion,.
It's not. The paper is based on the fact the author thinks free will can be quantitively measured through incredibly unreliable psychometric tests that attempt to evaluate three qualitative philosophical concepts associated with free will: choice, reasoning and veto (I think). It's all a bit of a mess, unsurprisingly. I didn't read the whole lot, the conclusion was enough. You could come back when you have a globally agreed definition of 'free will'?
It’s interesting that you completely deny the science, then end with the notion there’s no agreed definition of ‘free will’. biggrin

Humans aren’t born, or exist, in a vacuum. We’re all a result of decisions and events that came before us, going all the way back to the Big Bang.

Our intuition around agency is a quirk of human psychology. No doubt an evolutionary feature to help us deal with the absurd nature of existence.

lrdisco

1,441 posts

86 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
keo said:
Just lazy fat s who need to move more and eat less. Simple. If you are fat/ alcoholic/ druggie I’d refuse you at the nhs door
Absolutely but what about all the runners damaging their knees running? Walking gives the same exercise value without the strain on the knees.
So let’s refuse runners access to the nhs.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

34,941 posts

211 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
BorkBorkBork said:
Neuroscientists identified a specific aspect of the notion of freedom (the conscious control of the start of the action) and researched it: the experimental results seemed to indicate that there is no such conscious control, hence the conclusion that free will does not exist.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC48874...

Given that free will is an illusion, I’d argue that obesity is neither a choice nor an illness. It’s a result of cheap, nutritionally bankrupt food which high in fat, salt and refined carbohydrates, along with the neurosis of the modern human.

If you are fat, it’s bad luck. Similarly, if you are a physical specimen, it’s good luck. Choice has very little to do with it.
So, what you're saying, that obese people are absolutely forced to walk down the sweets isle at the supermarket and HAVE to buy stuff? How does that work when an obese person has the free will to decide they want to lose weight, and then do so? Do they develop free will at that point? laugh Ridiculous, of course they have a choice whether to buy bad food or not, nobody's holding a gun to their head.

keo

2,019 posts

169 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
lrdisco said:
Absolutely but what about all the runners damaging their knees running? Walking gives the same exercise value without the strain on the knees.
So let’s refuse runners access to the nhs.
Running has many positives to health though (it also actually strengthens knees)

What positives does being fat bring?

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
keo said:
Running has many positives to health though (it also actually strengthens knees)

What positives does being fat bring?
Fat people drive the profits for the producers of junk food, slimming products, gyms, personal trainers, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies.

They are a little economic powerhouse.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

34,941 posts

211 months

Monday 27th June 2022
quotequote all
lrdisco said:
keo said:
Just lazy fat s who need to move more and eat less. Simple. If you are fat/ alcoholic/ druggie I’d refuse you at the nhs door
[Absolutely but what about all the runners damaging their knees running? Walking gives the same exercise value without the strain on the knees.
So let’s refuse runners access to the nhs.
The incidence of OA in runners is lower than obese people. See the waiting list for replacement knees, almost none of them are runners. If runners do their strength training running does no harm to the knees, it just makes them stronger.

Walking doesn't give the same exercise value as running, and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant. HTH.