Private schools, times a changing?

Private schools, times a changing?

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gareth h

3,503 posts

229 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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DKL said:
gareth h said:
DKL said:
gareth h said:
Mine went to Dauntseys outside Devizes, we were very please with it.
Thanks. We're aware of Dauntseys but WL is quite a trek to do every day.
Not sure where WL is, but they’ve got quite a good bus service.
Thanks. I'll look at the bus but going to take even longer I'd imagine. We are about 40 mins for West Lavington (Dauntseys).
I’d recommend going and having a look around, they have a really good attitude to developing rounded young adults, and some fantastic facilities.

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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okgo said:
I don’t know whether it’s just a London thing but the places for many of the paid schools seem hard fought too! Alleyn’s which is one we will try for is hugely oversubscribed.

Must admit I hadn’t also appreciated just how many of the paid options are single sex. Still on the fence with how I feel about that.
That is very true. Given the competition for places at London day schools you have basically no chance unless your child went to a feeder prep school. In SW London, that basically means you have to get your child into pre prep in one of the federation schools, Ducks or Eaton House

brickwall

5,192 posts

209 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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ClaphamGT3 said:
okgo said:
I don’t know whether it’s just a London thing but the places for many of the paid schools seem hard fought too! Alleyn’s which is one we will try for is hugely oversubscribed.

Must admit I hadn’t also appreciated just how many of the paid options are single sex. Still on the fence with how I feel about that.
That is very true. Given the competition for places at London day schools you have basically no chance unless your child went to a feeder prep school. In SW London, that basically means you have to get your child into pre prep in one of the federation schools, Ducks or Eaton House
And the feeder preps themselves are pretty selective, but not sure how much you really can do in terms of selection for a 4 year old. But on the other hand, if you’re into somewhere like Dulwich Prep then you’re largely guaranteed to get into a major public school of your choice, it’s just a question of which one and whether there’s a scholarship or not.

mikey_b

1,771 posts

44 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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okgo said:
I don’t know whether it’s just a London thing but the places for many of the paid schools seem hard fought too! Alleyn’s which is one we will try for is hugely oversubscribed.

Must admit I hadn’t also appreciated just how many of the paid options are single sex. Still on the fence with how I feel about that.
It’s not just paid ones. A significant proportion of state schools here in Kent are single sex - especially the grammars, with 26 out of 32 being single sex.

I guess the takeaway is that in schools that consider academic rigour as being a core focus, single sex education is viewed as being a strong net positive.

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
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brickwall said:
ettore said:
An interesting take on this debate:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/private-educat...
Interesting article. Don’t agree with all of it, but for me this is an important point shaping the debate today:

Article said:
Before they got greedy, and fatuously obsessed with vanity building projects and courting Chinese and oligarch money, the private schools did at least impart those codes to the children of the mildly prosperous, not only the rich. Back in the 1980s, the then Headmasters’ Conference listed occupations which could be expected to pay enough for private education: there were about 20 of them, including GPs, country solicitors, army officers etc. The latest list is down to about five: banking, insurance, real estate, entrepreneurs and more banking.
Private schools have raised their fees so much over the last 30-40 years they are seen as only accessible to a global elite - and consequently there will be much less sympathy for their cause should a government decide to change stance.
Got an announcement the other day that our GP is retiring. Third generation of his family to be our local GP. He went to Stowe. I wonder if there are GP's kids there today?

ClaphamGT3

11,269 posts

242 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
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Sheepshanks said:
Got an announcement the other day that our GP is retiring. Third generation of his family to be our local GP. He went to Stowe. I wonder if there are GP's kids there today?
A couple we're friendly with round the corner from us sent 4 sons to Harrow. She's a GP and he's a cardiologist

okgo

Original Poster:

37,857 posts

197 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
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When someone bought their house basically dictates their entire life in London. Now those two couldn’t afford to live anywhere near you in a house big enough for 6.

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
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ClaphamGT3 said:
A couple we're friendly with round the corner from us sent 4 sons to Harrow. She's a GP and he's a cardiologist
Well, OK, but i was more thinking of a GP as the majority breadwinner.

Bearing in mind the gross income required Harrow x4 still sounds like pretty good going even for the two of them - although I suppose if there's some element of private practice in there then they'll have PH worthy incomes. But who knows (maybe you do?) they could have been assisted by family money.

Harry Flashman

19,283 posts

241 months

Sunday 26th March 2023
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okgo said:
I don’t know whether it’s just a London thing but the places for many of the paid schools seem hard fought too! Alleyn’s which is one we will try for is hugely oversubscribed.

Must admit I hadn’t also appreciated just how many of the paid options are single sex. Still on the fence with how I feel about that.
We had a place at a single sex school for our eldest daughter, and a good one.

We decided against, as she has another sister at home and no brothers. I am relatively relaxed about single sex schools, having been to one. But I had a younger sister so her friends became my friends and I had a good balance growing up.

Moot point, though. Lady F is American, thinks single sex schooling is weird, and vetoed it.

WindyCommon

3,354 posts

238 months

Sunday 26th March 2023
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My two sons are at an independent school in Greater London. Here’s an excerpt from the school’s most recently filed financial statements.


okgo

Original Poster:

37,857 posts

197 months

Sunday 26th March 2023
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Seems fairly unremarkable doesn’t it, perhaps with the exception of the top paid person though there’s a lot of money and staff/responsibility there so it doesn’t surprise me it’s well paid at the top end.

Conversely the highest paid person in my sons nursery which probably costs more than that school is on £40k a year with most in the twenties. Someone’s getting rich.

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Sunday 26th March 2023
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WindyCommon said:
My two sons are at an independent school in Greater London. Here’s an excerpt from the school’s most recently filed financial statements.

Wow! What's the school's fee income?

Louis Balfour

26,271 posts

221 months

Sunday 26th March 2023
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Sheepshanks said:
WindyCommon said:
My two sons are at an independent school in Greater London. Here’s an excerpt from the school’s most recently filed financial statements.

Wow! What's the school's fee income?
I am assuming the high earner is the Head. Quite a punchy package, at first glance, but we don't know which school it is, what they are responsible for and what revenue they bring in.


ooid

4,049 posts

99 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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You would be surprised how many vice chancellors earning more than that (non Russell Group), at least 7-8 multiples of average academic salaries too.

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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Louis Balfour said:
I am assuming the high earner is the Head. Quite a punchy package, at first glance, but we don't know which school it is, what they are responsible for and what revenue they bring in.
Likely that at least the senior staff will be on DB pensions so the cost of that could be ~30% of the package.

I looked at our local (NW) independent school - around 1000 pupils - and the salaries look pretty normal, the top couple being perhaps a bit ahead of your average state senior school (we have a state Head and a Deputy Head in the family). Pension costs where separate though - only the top four had DB pensions, the rest of the staff on DC. DC is normal for private school staff - a disadvantage of working there.

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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ooid said:
You would be surprised how many vice chancellors earning more than that (non Russell Group), at least 7-8 multiples of average academic salaries too.
Very different scale of job though to a school head though.

gareth h

3,503 posts

229 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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WindyCommon said:
My two sons are at an independent school in Greater London. Here’s an excerpt from the school’s most recently filed financial statements.

These schools are sizeable financial organisations, the school my kids went to is about 900 pupils (11-18 years) each paying circa £22k / year (boarders are more than this), by my maths that’s almost £20 million turnover / year.

WindyCommon

3,354 posts

238 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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Louis Balfour said:
I am assuming the high earner is the Head. Quite a punchy package, at first glance, but we don't know which school it is, what they are responsible for and what revenue they bring in.
I'm neither naive nor squeamish about pay (professional career in fund management...) but I will admit I was surprised at the highest figure disclosed.

Like most independent schools, it's a charity. Its charitable objects are "TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION OF BOYS AND GIRLS AND IN PARTICULAR (BUT NOT LIMITED TO) RUNNING A DAY AND/OR BOARDING SCHOOL OR SCHOOLS ... AND BY ANCILLARY OR INCIDENTAL EDUCATIONAL ACTIVITIES AND OTHER ASSOCIATED ACTIVITIES FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE COMMUNITY."

The interesting question is whether the recipient should be viewed (as some posters propose) as the leader of a substantial business, or as the leader of what is technically a charity. Turnover is approx £30m, which I suspect is quite small for a charity https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.go...

It's an interesting school, highly selective with 6-10 applicants for every place selected by difficult entrance exams, punchy interviews and academic/personal references from junior schools. It looks like a local comprehensive and its ethos/expectations are very clear: work hard AND play hard. It's as far from oak panelling, latin mottoes, Hogwarts and entitlement/old school tie as you can get. A very competitive environment so not for everyone, although they clearly select well for personal characteristics not just academic potential. My sense is that it's very well run.

Before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not looking to make a political point about independent schools - clearly I am a supporter! - or their charitable status. I was just surprised by the compensation disclosures for the excellent school my boys attend.

Countdown

39,690 posts

195 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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WindyCommon said:
<snip> although they clearly select well for personal characteristics not just academic potential.
Does anybody ever get rejected due to a failing in "personal characteristics"?

Leithen

10,799 posts

266 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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It is a competitive environment. Competition for places, but also for pupils, for staff, and for the best leadership teams.

One of my oldest school friends is Head of a well known and very successful Southern-England Public School. His workload is immense, and the need to navigate very difficult HR, Safeguarding, Compliance etc whilst at the same time leading an organisation and running a very successful business is something I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. He hasn't taught anything for years.

I my opinion he deserves every pound he earns and probably more. He could be earning far bigger bucks in the city and not having to deal with parents who are in city....