Discussion
Hi all,
First time posting on this thread, and it isn't one that I ever even considered visiting before. Also, apologies for posting under a different alias. I guess I know how I'm feeling is completely ridiculous and have a certain degree of shame around it. Compared to pretty much all the cases on here this seems unbelievably trivial but I just feel I would like the views of others.
To keep it brief, I met a girl approx three months ago and we have been inseparable ever since. I never believed in "the one" before, in fact I have always been a bit of a "lad" when it comes to women, but she has totally changed my view on this. When you know you know as they say.
Last week we had the discussion about exes, and it turned out that she had a one night stand with a guy from work about a week before we met. Normally this would not effect me. She had just come out of a long term relationship (ended December) so was clearly a rebound thing. She assures me (and I know it's true) that there were no emotions there and she hasn't made any contact sinse other than civil matters. Hasn't seen him since either. I had also come out of a long term relationship (September) and had had similar experiences with two different women which she knows about and appears to be OK with.
What this revelation has done to me is nothing short of horrendous. I have no idea what has been triggered in my brain but the feelings of insecurity, inadequacy, vulnerability, and fear are overwhelming. I have never had these feelings or issues before. I have been off work for a week and halve lost almost a stone in this time. I am a relatively big, 27 year old guy at 6`4 and (before weight loss) 16 stone 4 having been weight training seriously for a few years. Everyone has always seen me as very confident and outgoing with no troubles in the world, however it appears that this is not the case. I haven't been to the gym since, I have been vomitting and even wreching when I am completely empty. I can't sleep through the night, I cannot stop thinking about her with another guy - very vivid images in my head. Even typing that makes me feel sick.
I went to see a psychotherapist earlier in the week as it was getting unbelievably overwhelming, who unearthered quite quickly that the likely reasons behind these thoughts are unstable (at best) relationships in my childhood and youth. The people I should have had to talk about things weren't, and that from avery young age my impression of relationships is something of pain and sadness. It felt good to talk about things and I have begun eating again. Today is my first day back in the office but I have struggled with these thoughts a few times. It is better than it was for sure. I haven't shed a tear about it for a couple of days whereas previously I was inconsolable. I know that these thoughts are completely irrational and unfounded, and almost unfair as I have done the same, but I just cannot avoid them. I need to get over this before it drives a wedge between us which is my biggest fear as she is absolutely perfect for me in every way.
She knows how I feel to a degree, but I am doing my best to be normal with her, although struggling to eat as normal is a little obvious.
I have no idea what my question is... but any input would be great.
Thanks
First time posting on this thread, and it isn't one that I ever even considered visiting before. Also, apologies for posting under a different alias. I guess I know how I'm feeling is completely ridiculous and have a certain degree of shame around it. Compared to pretty much all the cases on here this seems unbelievably trivial but I just feel I would like the views of others.
To keep it brief, I met a girl approx three months ago and we have been inseparable ever since. I never believed in "the one" before, in fact I have always been a bit of a "lad" when it comes to women, but she has totally changed my view on this. When you know you know as they say.
Last week we had the discussion about exes, and it turned out that she had a one night stand with a guy from work about a week before we met. Normally this would not effect me. She had just come out of a long term relationship (ended December) so was clearly a rebound thing. She assures me (and I know it's true) that there were no emotions there and she hasn't made any contact sinse other than civil matters. Hasn't seen him since either. I had also come out of a long term relationship (September) and had had similar experiences with two different women which she knows about and appears to be OK with.
What this revelation has done to me is nothing short of horrendous. I have no idea what has been triggered in my brain but the feelings of insecurity, inadequacy, vulnerability, and fear are overwhelming. I have never had these feelings or issues before. I have been off work for a week and halve lost almost a stone in this time. I am a relatively big, 27 year old guy at 6`4 and (before weight loss) 16 stone 4 having been weight training seriously for a few years. Everyone has always seen me as very confident and outgoing with no troubles in the world, however it appears that this is not the case. I haven't been to the gym since, I have been vomitting and even wreching when I am completely empty. I can't sleep through the night, I cannot stop thinking about her with another guy - very vivid images in my head. Even typing that makes me feel sick.
I went to see a psychotherapist earlier in the week as it was getting unbelievably overwhelming, who unearthered quite quickly that the likely reasons behind these thoughts are unstable (at best) relationships in my childhood and youth. The people I should have had to talk about things weren't, and that from avery young age my impression of relationships is something of pain and sadness. It felt good to talk about things and I have begun eating again. Today is my first day back in the office but I have struggled with these thoughts a few times. It is better than it was for sure. I haven't shed a tear about it for a couple of days whereas previously I was inconsolable. I know that these thoughts are completely irrational and unfounded, and almost unfair as I have done the same, but I just cannot avoid them. I need to get over this before it drives a wedge between us which is my biggest fear as she is absolutely perfect for me in every way.
She knows how I feel to a degree, but I am doing my best to be normal with her, although struggling to eat as normal is a little obvious.
I have no idea what my question is... but any input would be great.
Thanks
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 14:59
I know that. My rational self knows that, but my irrational self has completely over reacted and turned me into a total mess. Put it this way, if any of my friends were in this situation I would really struggle to sympathise and wonder what on earth they're jabbering on about. I know it's completely ridiculous and that's what frustrates me the most.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 15:18
Some interesting reading here.
I've suffered with what I now realise is anxiety for the last 6 years or so. For most of that time I thought I had stomach upsets but eventually I realised it was anxiety. I push through it, I have to, but it makes work hard, concentration is destroyed, relaxing is hard etc. Sleep is fine, actually its a refuge and eating actually makes things better(it seems to occupy my stomach).
Im really struggling to identify any triggers though. I think I know why I have it, but I dont know what suddenly kicks it off or why it stops just as quickly as it started. Sometimes I can feel it coming on and push it back, but not always like now.
Does anyone know how to identify triggers - I read a few pages back about someones triggers for depression and I wonder if its similar. Ive never been to the Doctor and I dont want to either, but any self help ideas, websites or youtube channels would be greatly appreciated.
I know this thread is depression but I hope its in a near enough vain to be ok.
I've suffered with what I now realise is anxiety for the last 6 years or so. For most of that time I thought I had stomach upsets but eventually I realised it was anxiety. I push through it, I have to, but it makes work hard, concentration is destroyed, relaxing is hard etc. Sleep is fine, actually its a refuge and eating actually makes things better(it seems to occupy my stomach).
Im really struggling to identify any triggers though. I think I know why I have it, but I dont know what suddenly kicks it off or why it stops just as quickly as it started. Sometimes I can feel it coming on and push it back, but not always like now.
Does anyone know how to identify triggers - I read a few pages back about someones triggers for depression and I wonder if its similar. Ive never been to the Doctor and I dont want to either, but any self help ideas, websites or youtube channels would be greatly appreciated.
I know this thread is depression but I hope its in a near enough vain to be ok.
notmyself said:
I know that. My rational self knows that, but my irrational self has completely over reacted and turned me into a total mess. Put it this way, if any of my friends were in this situation I would really struggle to sympathise and wonder what on earth they're jabbering on about. I know it's completely ridiculous and that's what frustrates me the most.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Have an actual conversation in your head with your irrational self and reason with *him*. Tell him he's being stupid, when we are free-agents anything's fair game.Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 15:18
The probable reason is because you like her so much...
notmyself said:
I know that. My rational self knows that, but my irrational self has completely over reacted and turned me into a total mess. Put it this way, if any of my friends were in this situation I would really struggle to sympathise and wonder what on earth they're jabbering on about. I know it's completely ridiculous and that's what frustrates me the most.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Its ok, I understand thinking wtf to others but its also you Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 15:18
Write words like rejection and try writing the exs name on some toilet paper and flush it away. Sounds gay but helps me
notmyself said:
I know that. My rational self knows that, but my irrational self has completely over reacted and turned me into a total mess. Put it this way, if any of my friends were in this situation I would really struggle to sympathise and wonder what on earth they're jabbering on about. I know it's completely ridiculous and that's what frustrates me the most.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
I think you might have been bowled over?Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 15:18
You said you used to be a bit of a ladies man etc, but now you have met someone that you have really clicked with and BOOM it's a whole new different kettle of fish.
You're not used to really falling for, or believing that "THE 1" is out there, why would you be when you've had the pick of the bunch for a fair while. All of a sudden this girl comes along, you instantly click on every level, (rare) and so life is great until you hear the news you heard.
Before it would have been nothing, a shrug of shoulders at best, but now because you have genuinely fell for this girl, it is a major problem!!!!!
Almost a case of the tables having been turned?
Only my thoughts of course, and only because I was once in exactly the same boat. It is rubbish, but it is life. I couldn't have the 1 I wanted, and it still always sits there in the back of my mind.
You have a chance to deal with things, and get the win, win in the long term. Don't let yourself trip you up, for your long term loss. If that makes sense?
On a brighter note I hadn't posted on here for a good fair while as things were OK, but today for some reason just beat me, had some very dark thoughts.
Such is life eh, or maybe not...
Just submitted a request for therapy. Not been a good few weeks and never experienced anything like this before, but now realise I've not been 'well' for a good few years now.
No one knows not even the wife as I haven't the balls to tell anyone, but that would be admitting I'm weak wouldn't it? and I wouldn't want anyone feeling sorry for me obviously as I'm a 'man' aren't I ?
No one knows not even the wife as I haven't the balls to tell anyone, but that would be admitting I'm weak wouldn't it? and I wouldn't want anyone feeling sorry for me obviously as I'm a 'man' aren't I ?
WarnieV6GT said:
Just submitted a request for therapy. Not been a good few weeks and never experienced anything like this before, but now realise I've not been 'well' for a good few years now.
No one knows not even the wife as I haven't the balls to tell anyone, but that would be admitting I'm weak wouldn't it? and I wouldn't want anyone feeling sorry for me obviously as I'm a 'man' aren't I ?
Speaking as one who has had a very rough ride with both depression and anxiety I would just say this: "Hang in there". No one knows not even the wife as I haven't the balls to tell anyone, but that would be admitting I'm weak wouldn't it? and I wouldn't want anyone feeling sorry for me obviously as I'm a 'man' aren't I ?
Forget all the traditional b
ks about 'being a man'. It takes courage to both admit you have an issue and address it, regardless of whether its directly to family, a health professional or anonymously online. So well done.Confront things and life will get better.
Cheers, Whatty.
notmyself said:
I know that. My rational self knows that, but my irrational self has completely over reacted and turned me into a total mess. Put it this way, if any of my friends were in this situation I would really struggle to sympathise and wonder what on earth they're jabbering on about. I know it's completely ridiculous and that's what frustrates me the most.
Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Look up something called Retrospective Jealousy. It's a relatively new term but there have been more and more studies into it recently. It's essentially a form of anxiety I believe.Perhaps it's because its a new piece of news - time is a healer and all that. It's just the imagery I'm having a hard time with at the moment.
Edited by notmyself on Friday 12th May 15:18
I only know about it is because a close friend suffers from it, and is really struggling with a new relationship at the moment due to her 'colourful' past. I don't suffer myself but have spent many hours talking to him at all times of the day and night, and it sounds horrendous. The smallest thing seems to trigger it. He's also had counselling and the counsellor suggested, similar to you, that it came from deep rooted issues in his childhood. Stay strong, he's learning to cope with it so there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Whatty said:
Speaking as one who has had a very rough ride with both depression and anxiety I would just say this: "Hang in there".
Forget all the traditional bks about 'being a man'. It takes courage to both admit you have an issue and address it, regardless of whether its directly to family, a health professional or anonymously online. So well done.
Confront things and life will get better.
Cheers, Whatty.
Thanks Whatty.Forget all the traditional b
ks about 'being a man'. It takes courage to both admit you have an issue and address it, regardless of whether its directly to family, a health professional or anonymously online. So well done.Confront things and life will get better.
Cheers, Whatty.
Another cathartic soliloquy incoming from Sturdy! 
It's strange isn't it how unacceptable it is to admit you're ill as a 'man'.
Mental illness especially. I mean, we all ignore things for ages before going to the doctor (don't we?
) because "It'll be fiiiiine" and we just soldier on stupidly for little reason. But that's all part of the game. And it's even worse for mental health.
Somehow if you're not 'fiiiiiiine' then you're unable to cope. You're not man enough to just get on with things.
To 'notmyself', we can all understand why you're posting under a (well named) pseudonym. But think about what it represents. 50 years ago, you might have had to post under a pretend name if you were black. 10 years ago, you might have had to if you were gay.
These things are acceptable now, and few places are as forcefully accepting as PH. The internet is full of people competing to find an even higher soapbox to stand on, so no matter what you come out with, somebody will be there to defend your right to say it, to prove that they are the more liberal, more tolerant and ultimately the higher wisdom.
And yet although most of us probably do secretly accept that we're not the best driver in the world, or the most powerfully built company director, or the wealthiest, or cleverest, we all still feel the pressure to be fine. Everything is fine. The very fact we're posting on the internet means we're more privileged than millions of other people. How dare you feel bad.
Chris Cornell's suicide has really highlighted some people's well meaning lack of understanding for me today. Not that I begrudge them for not knowing any better. Ignorance truly is bliss on the subject of depression. I know how much easier it was for me to not know any better.
I'm very much rambling on again.
To an earlier poster who is happy to be off the medication at his difficult time, I just want to make sure he's aware that there is nothing to be ashamed of or skeptical of of being on medication. You're ill pal. I worry that if you thought you were "really ill" (by which I mean visibly / physically ill) you'd take medication without a second thought. It's concerning that you may still feel in your own mind that you're not really ill, that somehow you're a failure for being on medication for a mental illness, because everyone else can deal with it without medication. Well everyone else isn't ill. And it's OK if you are, it isn't your failing, or weakness. You're in fact far stronger because you actually have to deal with this horrible black hole that so many people remain utterly ignorant of their entire lives the lucky bds!
Just thought I'd drop in again anyway, hope everyone is doing as well as can be expected
It's strange isn't it how unacceptable it is to admit you're ill as a 'man'.
Mental illness especially. I mean, we all ignore things for ages before going to the doctor (don't we?
) because "It'll be fiiiiine" and we just soldier on stupidly for little reason. But that's all part of the game. And it's even worse for mental health.Somehow if you're not 'fiiiiiiine' then you're unable to cope. You're not man enough to just get on with things.
To 'notmyself', we can all understand why you're posting under a (well named) pseudonym. But think about what it represents. 50 years ago, you might have had to post under a pretend name if you were black. 10 years ago, you might have had to if you were gay.
These things are acceptable now, and few places are as forcefully accepting as PH. The internet is full of people competing to find an even higher soapbox to stand on, so no matter what you come out with, somebody will be there to defend your right to say it, to prove that they are the more liberal, more tolerant and ultimately the higher wisdom.
And yet although most of us probably do secretly accept that we're not the best driver in the world, or the most powerfully built company director, or the wealthiest, or cleverest, we all still feel the pressure to be fine. Everything is fine. The very fact we're posting on the internet means we're more privileged than millions of other people. How dare you feel bad.
Chris Cornell's suicide has really highlighted some people's well meaning lack of understanding for me today. Not that I begrudge them for not knowing any better. Ignorance truly is bliss on the subject of depression. I know how much easier it was for me to not know any better.
I'm very much rambling on again.
To an earlier poster who is happy to be off the medication at his difficult time, I just want to make sure he's aware that there is nothing to be ashamed of or skeptical of of being on medication. You're ill pal. I worry that if you thought you were "really ill" (by which I mean visibly / physically ill) you'd take medication without a second thought. It's concerning that you may still feel in your own mind that you're not really ill, that somehow you're a failure for being on medication for a mental illness, because everyone else can deal with it without medication. Well everyone else isn't ill. And it's OK if you are, it isn't your failing, or weakness. You're in fact far stronger because you actually have to deal with this horrible black hole that so many people remain utterly ignorant of their entire lives the lucky b
ds!Just thought I'd drop in again anyway, hope everyone is doing as well as can be expected
SturdyHSV said:
To an earlier poster who is happy to be off the medication at his difficult time, I just want to make sure he's aware that there is nothing to be ashamed of or skeptical of of being on medication. You're ill pal. I worry that if you thought you were "really ill" (by which I mean visibly / physically ill) you'd take medication without a second thought. It's concerning that you may still feel in your own mind that you're not really ill, that somehow you're a failure for being on medication for a mental illness, because everyone else can deal with it without medication. Well everyone else isn't ill. And it's OK if you are, it isn't your failing, or weakness. You're in fact far stronger because you actually have to deal with this horrible black hole that so many people remain utterly ignorant of their entire lives the lucky bds!
That would be me ds!
The irony being is I'm my own worst enemy... I judged me for being on meds, I deemed myself to be weak.
I also took the decision when I went on the meds that's it wasn't going to be long term. Just whilst I needed them as a crutch to get me through.
Going on them and coming off them was such a fecking horrific experience, that when my mum died, going back on them just wasn't an option.
Still, it's bitten me on the arse as I'm currently at that bottomless pit of despair. I went back to work after burying mum to be told my promotion has been cancelled too. So pretty much sod all good in my life right now. Currently self medicating with my mate Jack Daniels.
Still, it's phase, it'll pass, and no doubt life will get better.
wiliferus said:
That would be me
The irony being is I'm my own worst enemy... I judged me for being on meds, I deemed myself to be weak.
I also took the decision when I went on the meds that's it wasn't going to be long term. Just whilst I needed them as a crutch to get me through.
Going on them and coming off them was such a fecking horrific experience, that when my mum died, going back on them just wasn't an option.
Still, it's bitten me on the arse as I'm currently at that bottomless pit of despair. I went back to work after burying mum to be told my promotion has been cancelled too. So pretty much sod all good in my life right now. Currently self medicating with my mate Jack Daniels.
Still, it's phase, it'll pass, and no doubt life will get better.
It's doubtful it will, you're making all the classic mistakes and i'm sure i'm not the only one who can see it.The irony being is I'm my own worst enemy... I judged me for being on meds, I deemed myself to be weak.
I also took the decision when I went on the meds that's it wasn't going to be long term. Just whilst I needed them as a crutch to get me through.
Going on them and coming off them was such a fecking horrific experience, that when my mum died, going back on them just wasn't an option.
Still, it's bitten me on the arse as I'm currently at that bottomless pit of despair. I went back to work after burying mum to be told my promotion has been cancelled too. So pretty much sod all good in my life right now. Currently self medicating with my mate Jack Daniels.
Still, it's phase, it'll pass, and no doubt life will get better.
Salient points:
Booze won't do it and sorrow floats.
You do not come off medication like this suddenly. Yes it's hard, anything worth having is.
Seek some help from your Doctor, there are a few different types, one will suit you better than the others - I took one that helped me sleep.
A chapter of my story is similar to yours, i'm speaking from experience and a relative veteran, you won't beat it without help so stop playing the hardman, get some sense and get some help.
For reasons unknown, I'm struggling ATM. Nothing seemingly out of place, business is OK, Sarah and I are getting married in August, house renovations going nicely. Waking feeling like I CBA to get out of bed, and that my get up and go - for want of a better phrase - has buggered off. Docs appt booked, but I would like to get a handle on it, rather than just a quack upgrading me from 20mg P/D of Citalopram to 30. Bloody barsteward head 
Not good atm. Isolating myself, trying to see the positives but the knock backs keep coming. It seems to be a punishment, I strive to gain a positive mental attitude, and when I gain it and think 'things may be okay' something will come along with 48hrs just to put me back in my place. Its relentless, I expect it and just say to myself 'yes, I was wondering when the next thing would come along and kick me back down'.
It happened last week, spent days on my mental attitude, was feeling positive and I actually faced down some of my worries. It was the evening, the sun was shining and I actually felt the worry lift for the first time in weeks. My stomach didn't feel in knots, my head didn't feel like it was trying to burst out of my head and I felt good, I felt positive. It lasted approx 30 mins before something came out of the blue and put me back right where I'd been weeks before. I though 'you could've given me a bit longer'. Felt like someone was looking down at me and laughing.
I'm slowly coming to terms with my life, I recognise that It gives me little pleasure and I wish it would end. I fall asleep at night hoping that I don't wake up again, when I do I just stare at the wall and realise I'll have to get up, put on a false smile and get through the next 14 hours.
I tried the Doctors again (this time last year), eventually got to speak to someone but I was steered into CBT. After 3 or 4 session we both realise it was getting me nowhere and I needed to just talk to someone, get it all out, shout, cry... Instead they sent a letter telling me I'd been discharged and if I felt I needed further therapy I'd need to re-apply through my doctors again. I don't feel like they really care, just get you off the books as quickly as possible and get the waiting time figures down. Not trying again, months for a telephone consult, months waiting to see someone and then trying to justify why you should take up a therapists time over a few weeks/months at great expense. I also feel like there are people with real problems, people who genuinely need the service more than I do.
So it looks like it's down to me but I feel like I don't have the energy, motivation or will to try and achieve whatever it is I'm trying to achieve. You can only try and get yourself back on your feet so many times before you think to yourself 'stay down, no point in getting up... it'll just hurt again'.
I think my family are losing faith, although it's the done thing to say 'we're here for you' who wants to spend time with a miserable bugger who may start talking about their depression. Who the fk wants that in their lives. That's half the reason I don't see much of them, I think their lives are richer and happier the less they have to do with me.
Where did it all go wrong, who's life it this? Am I not a good person?, I'm sure I am so why is this happening??
It happened last week, spent days on my mental attitude, was feeling positive and I actually faced down some of my worries. It was the evening, the sun was shining and I actually felt the worry lift for the first time in weeks. My stomach didn't feel in knots, my head didn't feel like it was trying to burst out of my head and I felt good, I felt positive. It lasted approx 30 mins before something came out of the blue and put me back right where I'd been weeks before. I though 'you could've given me a bit longer'. Felt like someone was looking down at me and laughing.
I'm slowly coming to terms with my life, I recognise that It gives me little pleasure and I wish it would end. I fall asleep at night hoping that I don't wake up again, when I do I just stare at the wall and realise I'll have to get up, put on a false smile and get through the next 14 hours.
I tried the Doctors again (this time last year), eventually got to speak to someone but I was steered into CBT. After 3 or 4 session we both realise it was getting me nowhere and I needed to just talk to someone, get it all out, shout, cry... Instead they sent a letter telling me I'd been discharged and if I felt I needed further therapy I'd need to re-apply through my doctors again. I don't feel like they really care, just get you off the books as quickly as possible and get the waiting time figures down. Not trying again, months for a telephone consult, months waiting to see someone and then trying to justify why you should take up a therapists time over a few weeks/months at great expense. I also feel like there are people with real problems, people who genuinely need the service more than I do.
So it looks like it's down to me but I feel like I don't have the energy, motivation or will to try and achieve whatever it is I'm trying to achieve. You can only try and get yourself back on your feet so many times before you think to yourself 'stay down, no point in getting up... it'll just hurt again'.
I think my family are losing faith, although it's the done thing to say 'we're here for you' who wants to spend time with a miserable bugger who may start talking about their depression. Who the f
k wants that in their lives. That's half the reason I don't see much of them, I think their lives are richer and happier the less they have to do with me. Where did it all go wrong, who's life it this? Am I not a good person?, I'm sure I am so why is this happening??
You're a perfectly good person I'm sure :-)
I have been doing CBT and frankly I am finding it pointless but there are some good things about "spotting thinking errors" which I can see would apply to some of your thinking.
Black and white thinking
Catastrophising or something
Life has it's ups and downs bud. Try and focus more on the positive. Easy to say I know full well!
I have been doing CBT and frankly I am finding it pointless but there are some good things about "spotting thinking errors" which I can see would apply to some of your thinking.
Black and white thinking
Catastrophising or something
Life has it's ups and downs bud. Try and focus more on the positive. Easy to say I know full well!
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