5x5

[ajcj]

ORD said:

stargazer30 said:

I just saw a similar thing with the deadlift. My deadlift, I deload the weight to the floor after each rep, reset my back, breath in/brace and up we go. So about 1 sec between reps. Now using that method, I can do 130kg for 5 reps no bother. My PT showed me a better way where you go down slow touch the bar to the floor but don't deload, you go straight back up. I did 8 reps at 100kg and it was really tough on my lower back and grip.

PS - 100+KG squat for 5 sets of 5 for some one who weights 70kg is still very respectable. I am 85kg and 3 sets of 5 at 100kg and I'm done (well my back is)

It is vastly safer to reset between reps for heavy deadlifts. If 100kg is very light to you, it's fine. But it gets risky once the weight is enough to pull you down and out of good pulling shape between reps. Better than bouncing reps, though, which I see a lot at my local gym. If you're going to let the weight fall, then reset!

I think the key here is how well you can maintain good form through the set. If I'm doing something at the top end of my ability, I tend to touch-and-go on the first few, then need a reset on the later reps, because I can feel myself getting pulled out of shape on the descent.

Please please please don't do the 'let go at the top and let it smash back to the floor' deadlift that seems popular with the bandana-wearing, 20-sets-of-curls, 'beast mode' vest types in my gym. There is a high correlation between doing that and leaving loaded bars and weights on the floor at the end of the set, I've noticed. Grrrrr.

[ORD]

If you're doing heavy sets of 2-3 reps, a bit of smash is inevitable. And you'll be resetting.

What I cannot stand is people doing 8 or 10 horrible reps without a reset, so form gets worse each rep and they are smashing the weight into the floor. Do 5 proper touch and go reps and then reset if you want to do a couple more.

[ORD]

One got me today. A PT was training a client. Utterly horrid form. 4 inch ROM on bench press and pull ups. He then stands by while the client asks a mate to try too heavy a weight for him on the incline bench. No warm up. The idiot then drops 80 kg onto his stomach, narrowly avoiding dropping in on his throat.

It took every fibre of my self-restraint not to tell him that he's a fking liability and needs to find a new job.

I think I'm going to report him to management because he's going to get someone hurt with all the ego lifting bullst.

[joshleb]

Going to start this on Monday.
Not been to the gym in 18 months, and have lost 8kg, down from 85 to 77. Feel like a string bean currently at 1.86.

I'll start with the bar weight for this, and go from there, want to focus on proper form, especially as had knee surgery and a plated collar bone in the past.

Would it be massively detrimental to cycle to work circa 5 miles each way whilst on the program?

Cheers

[V8mate]

joshleb said:

Going to start this on Monday.
Not been to the gym in 18 months, and have lost 8kg, down from 85 to 77. Feel like a string bean currently at 1.86.

I'll start with the bar weight for this, and go from there, want to focus on proper form, especially as had knee surgery and a plated collar bone in the past.

Would it be massively detrimental to cycle to work circa 5 miles each way whilst on the program?

Cheers

That'll be fine, the 'advice' seems to be to avoid cardio in excess of a 5km run, so a 5 mile cycle ride is comfortably within that.

Though you may grimace a little as you cycle the day after some training days once things start getting heavier

[PapaJohns]

Iv just finished week 6, and failed my last set OHP @50kg. But I'll persevere and try again next time round .

[OMNIO]

Can't remember where I got to with this but started again recently. I keep getting distracted and out of sync because of evening meetings (excuses excuses)

Body Weight 72kg

Squat - 62.5kg failed on the last set so will need to repeat
BP - 35kg - passed
BOR - 35kg - passed
MP - 22.5kg - passed
DL - 60kg - passed

Feeling stronger now than last time I was doing it. I have stomach issues and can't eat leads so am supplementing with protein shake before and after which may be the reason. Keeping the intake at 2g per kg body weight.

[PapaJohns]

PapaJohns said:

Iv just finished week 6, and failed my last set OHP @50kg. But I'll persevere and try again next time round .

Completed the 50kg OHP a couple of weeks ago and even 52.5kg to my surprise , after a week on holiday Iv deloaded 10% across the board .

I got to 97.5kg squat and my hip flexor ( mainly left) was starting to hurt, eased off with some stretching, hoping the continued mobility work, week off and deload helps with the pain and progress

[dai1983]

joshleb said:

Going to start this on Monday.
Not been to the gym in 18 months, and have lost 8kg, down from 85 to 77. Feel like a string bean currently at 1.86.

I'll start with the bar weight for this, and go from there, want to focus on proper form, especially as had knee surgery and a plated collar bone in the past.

Would it be massively detrimental to cycle to work circa 5 miles each way whilst on the program?

Cheers

Exactly how I started and I was also cycling to work and back which was 10k twice a day. You'll really feel it around 90kg on Friday afternoon. Don't let the idiots sniggering behind your back get you down when your squatting the bar plus little weights. Give it 3 months and you'll be doing near your body weight ass to grass while they're still doing 60kg not even parallel.

I did this previously but certain things transpired to make me give it up and do body weight circuits which led to a body weight progression program. Things have changed and I have loads of free time to head to the gym but I still fancy my body weight progressions. How does this sound:

Workout A:
Squat
OHP
Deadlift
One legged squat progression
Pull up progression
Leg raise progression
HSPU progression

Workout B:
Squat
Bench
BOR
Push-up/dip progression (alternating)
Inverted Row progression
Plank variations- 1 set 30s-1min

All the bodyweight progressions start at 3 sets of 4 adding a rep each session upto 3 sets of 8. Then I'd move onto the next variation. The program is normally all the exercises 3 times per week and includes 5x5 deadlifts anyway. IVe also been squatting 5x5 once per week

[Heathwood]

Well I'm around 12 weeks in so I thought I'd provide a bit of an update.

Progress has been slowed a little after deloading following a holiday but, nevertheless, I've seen some modest to decent gains in strength. Squats are now seriously challenging and, to be honest, I almost got to the stage of slightly dreading an impending workout as a result. I've just failed 112.5kg for the third time (agonisingly close only dropping 1 rep in 1 set), but in a way I'm a bit relieved as I need the slight break in intensity I think.

Bench is increasing slowly but surely and is currently at 84kg and, after a stall at 50kg, I've managed to get my overhead press to 52.5kg. Near my limits on row at 80kg but plenty left in deads (127.5kg).

Despite the increase in strength, what I haven't seen is much hypertrophy and I'm the same weight (70kg) as when I started. There's been a bit of body recomp perhaps but clearly I need to eat more (currently c3,000 calories per day, perhaps a little less on non-training days).

So, an interesting few months. I still enjoy the simplicity and progressive nature of the program, although I'd imagine it'll get seriously tough by the time I'm failing across all 5 lifts. Let's see how the next month or two go.

[PapaJohns]

Heathwood said:

Well I'm around 12 weeks in so I thought I'd provide a bit of an update.

Progress has been slowed a little after deloading following a holiday but, nevertheless, I've seen some modest to decent gains in strength. Squats are now seriously challenging and, to be honest, I almost got to the stage of slightly dreading an impending workout as a result. I've just failed 112.5kg for the third time (agonisingly close only dropping 1 rep in 1 set), but in a way I'm a bit relieved as I need the slight break in intensity I think.

Bench is increasing slowly but surely and is currently at 84kg and, after a stall at 50kg, I've managed to get my overhead press to 52.5kg. Near my limits on row at 80kg but plenty left in deads (127.5kg).

Despite the increase in strength, what I haven't seen is much hypertrophy and I'm the same weight (70kg) as when I started. There's been a bit of body recomp perhaps but clearly I need to eat more (currently c3,000 calories per day, perhaps a little less on non-training days).

So, an interesting few months. I still enjoy the simplicity and progressive nature of the program, although I'd imagine it'll get seriously tough by the time I'm failing across all 5 lifts. Let's see how the next month or two go.

I'm not far behind you mate, I was at week 8 before a week off and a 10% Deload recommended by the app
Just starting week 12 myself today. My first late training session in a while (10pm) need to get my nutrition right so Iv got energy for later.

I'm currrntly @
Squat 105kg
OHP 55kg
Dead 100kg
Bench 70kg
Row 60kg

I was 101kg when I started and I'm now around 105kg,im managing a couple little niggles that come with lifting. My hip flexor s were starting to hurt,I seem to be managing this with stretches and mobility work, Also around week 2/3 I aggravated a nerve in my right shoulder/back. I'm sure this is down to poor form having the Olympic bar across my traps, I started using a fanny pad which helped but decided to try without it when I deloaded .and I'm back square one with the nerve pain.

Decided to read up on squatting and I'm going to try a couple of things over the coming weeks to try and improve my squat form. Shoulder mobility being one thing with my goal to eventually low back squat to get the bar away from my neck .

https://stronglifts.com/squat/#HipFlexibility

I'm not calorie counting ,just trying to eat more protein at regular intervals during the day , especially on rest days as this is when you build muscle, I'm going to get a bag of BCAA to aid the building process

Iv started having a shake pre training containing 2 scoops whey Protein,250ml almond milk, 30-50g of rolled oats and 5g creatine and maybe a banana . Iv read its good to get some quick carbs in you after your work out too- works in progress

I'm Looking forward to lifting tonight

[V8mate]

Heathwood said:

Well I'm around 12 weeks in so I thought I'd provide a bit of an update.

Progress has been slowed a little after deloading following a holiday but, nevertheless, I've seen some modest to decent gains in strength. Squats are now seriously challenging and, to be honest, I almost got to the stage of slightly dreading an impending workout as a result. I've just failed 112.5kg for the third time (agonisingly close only dropping 1 rep in 1 set), but in a way I'm a bit relieved as I need the slight break in intensity I think.

Bench is increasing slowly but surely and is currently at 84kg and, after a stall at 50kg, I've managed to get my overhead press to 52.5kg. Near my limits on row at 80kg but plenty left in deads (127.5kg).

Despite the increase in strength, what I haven't seen is much hypertrophy and I'm the same weight (70kg) as when I started. There's been a bit of body recomp perhaps but clearly I need to eat more (currently c3,000 calories per day, perhaps a little less on non-training days).

So, an interesting few months. I still enjoy the simplicity and progressive nature of the program, although I'd imagine it'll get seriously tough by the time I'm failing across all 5 lifts. Let's see how the next month or two go.

Despite the insistence of others, 5x5 is not a hypertrophy approach. It's a strength training regime; if you want big guns, you're playing the wrong game.

Depending on the specific lift/exercise you're doing, you'll need sets of 8-15 reps, and good use of super-sets, drop-sets, accessory lifts etc.

I think 5x5 is a means to an end - a way to get into the game, learning a small range of lifts and refining your technical approach as you build a solid strength base. It will never be the end in itself and becomes dreadfully boring once your strength starts to plateau.

[chris watton]

V8mate said:

Heathwood said:

Well I'm around 12 weeks in so I thought I'd provide a bit of an update.

Progress has been slowed a little after deloading following a holiday but, nevertheless, I've seen some modest to decent gains in strength. Squats are now seriously challenging and, to be honest, I almost got to the stage of slightly dreading an impending workout as a result. I've just failed 112.5kg for the third time (agonisingly close only dropping 1 rep in 1 set), but in a way I'm a bit relieved as I need the slight break in intensity I think.

Bench is increasing slowly but surely and is currently at 84kg and, after a stall at 50kg, I've managed to get my overhead press to 52.5kg. Near my limits on row at 80kg but plenty left in deads (127.5kg).

Despite the increase in strength, what I haven't seen is much hypertrophy and I'm the same weight (70kg) as when I started. There's been a bit of body recomp perhaps but clearly I need to eat more (currently c3,000 calories per day, perhaps a little less on non-training days).

So, an interesting few months. I still enjoy the simplicity and progressive nature of the program, although I'd imagine it'll get seriously tough by the time I'm failing across all 5 lifts. Let's see how the next month or two go.

Despite the insistence of others, 5x5 is not a hypertrophy approach. It's a strength training regime; if you want big guns, you're playing the wrong game.

Depending on the specific lift/exercise you're doing, you'll need sets of 8-15 reps, and good use of super-sets, drop-sets, accessory lifts etc.

I think 5x5 is a means to an end - a way to get into the game, learning a small range of lifts and refining your technical approach as you build a solid strength base. It will never be the end in itself and becomes dreadfully boring once your strength starts to plateau.

This! Although I would say that the lifts are the main compounds (some have quite a few variations to keep it fresh) you should be doing as the core of every routine, whether for strength or hypertrophy.

There is a world of different between doing 5 reps and 12-8 or 15-8 reps. Once you start doing the higher reps, you'll quickly realise that you have been winging it with the 5x5's (for Squats especially)

[Heathwood]

Thanks guys. I appreciate it isn't a hypertrophy program and I'm not seeking a body builder physique. My comment was more around the fact that I've not increased in weight, nor do I have any appreciable increase in muscle mass, yet my lifts have increased nicely despite this (I've been training for a couple of years or more and record everything). I guess the strength gains are more down to technique, repetition and maybe CNS?

[Zod]

Haven't looked back through the thread, but anyone doing the 5/3/1 programme? There is (naturally) an app for it.

It is the four basic lifts, squat, bench press, deadlift and shoulder press. You do a 5/5/5 session, then a 3/3/3, then a 5/3/1. If you include the warm-ups (and I do), then adds extra sets at lower %s of max before the main deal. You can of course split the sessions by exercise - I tend to do a session of squat and shoulder press and one of deadlift and bench press.


5/5/5 - 40%x5, 50%x5, 60%x3, 65%x5, 75%x5, 85% x5

3/3/3 - 40%x5, 50%x5, 60%x3, 70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x3

5/3/1 - 40%x5, 50%x5, 60%x3, 75%x5, 85%x3, 95%x1

I retest SRMs every two or three weeks. Current maxes are squat 165kg, bench press 105kg, deadlift 157.5kg and shoulder press 80kg.

The deadlift was way over the squat for ages, as you'd expect, but my last SRM tests a couple of weeks ago resulted in a big increase in the squat, while the deadlift stayed static.

I'm 1.88m and 96kg.

[ORD]

Strength gains, after the very early days, are correlated extremely closely with increases in muscle cross-sectional area.

If you're getting stronger after the beginner stage, you are almost certainly gaining muscle mass. There's lots of science about this, and CNS adaptation mostly contributes early on and for advanced lifters who practice loads with very heavy weights. The typical gym rat is relying on hypertrophy for most of his strength gains.

5 x 5 is plenty to gain muscle mass. I've gained 7kg in 6 months doing 5 reps or fewer in the past. We could all gain plenty of muscle doing sets of 3 reps (except maybe for squats) if we did 8-10 sets and used short rest periods. None of the mechanisms for muscle growth is 'number of reps' (although doing plenty of reps helps with most of the mechanisms).

High rep squats are certainly a different experience! Anything over about 10 reps is truly horrible in a way that no low-reps training can match. I am not sure 5 x 5 is the best rep scheme for squats - 5 heavy sets is maybe too many to allow balls out hard work, and 5 reps is probably not enough time under tension or metabolic stress to trigger the hormonal effect that you want from squats. Not to say it won't work, but 3 x 10 might well work better for most people.

[Little Butch]

Anybody still following this?
Im 67kg and currently Squatting 95kg, benching 70kg and deadlifting 100kg

[ORD]

One thing I've noticed about 5 x 5 is that people tend to end up with a low bench press relative to the other lifts and relative to bodyweight.

Is that because it increases at the same rate as OHP? That is surely too slow.

[chris watton]

I think that doing OHP and Bench Press in the same workout can skew the progression somewhat, more so as the weight gets heavier and shoulder get tired. However, Bench is usually done before OHP, so it is the OHP that should more difficult to progress, I would have thought.

[Little Butch]

Bench and OHP aren't done in the same workout with Stronglifts?