Keto diet - anyone else?

Keto diet - anyone else?

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anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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grumbledoak said:
bulldong said:
When you lost 5kg eating 4000kcal, did you change anything else?
Not a thing. I had been keto more than six years, stable at 72kg. Tried the carnivore 30 day "meat, salt, water" thing. Ate a shocking amount of steak. Lost 5kg. Decent scales, same time of day.

The silly quantities thing kicks in after about five days. It's like your body says "If we're going to do this, we're doing it properly." It calms down after about four weeks. I have stayed pretty strict, but I don't push it as a way of life 'cos it's a bit extreme.
Hilarious.

I’m interested in your workout/daily routine, unless your body basically neglects to absorb most of it because it’s all protein.

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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bulldong said:
I’m interested in your workout/daily routine, unless your body basically neglects to absorb most of it because it’s all protein.
Not a lot with the gyms shut. But variable absorption is one of the degrees of freedom I was referring to. Just because you swallowed it doesn't mean it's carried around forever. Though in my experience when you are eating only steak you get very nearly nothing out the other end, which makes sense when you work out what that mostly was and how it got there.

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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Anonymous-poster said:
4000 calories of meat is different to 4000 calories of..... obviously!
Well, macro nutrient make up can determine body composition. But energy balance is still driver to weight gain and weight loss. You eat too much you get fat, you don’t eat enough, you get thin.

When protein is equalised and kept high, no diet has an advantage to fat loss, and the same energy balance rules apply to all. Some suit some people better than others, but none are superior if adhered to.

DaveGrohl

890 posts

96 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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My point about calories was that calories are not a good way to measure what goes in and out of the human body, so can't be used in the way that 99 % of people think they can. "Eat fewer calories than you burn" etc is not what happens in reality. Calories are measured by basically burning food. We don't digest food by burning it. We eat food, digest some of it and absorb some of that. Quite a bit goes straight through us without being absorbed in any way. No effort is made to measure calories on the way in and calories coming out of us. This is the problem.

Contrast this with how we feed animals. We know far more about the nutrition of animals and have done for decades. Food components are measured in the feed about to be presented to animals and the excrement is collected and analysed for those same components. That way we know how different foods are digested and retained by the animal. Different digestibilities at different points in the digestive system too. Different sytems for different animals too. Burning human food is comical in comparison but that's science for you. That's why calories don't tell you much of anything.

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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DaveGrohl said:
My point about calories was that calories are not a good way to measure what goes in and out of the human body, so can't be used in the way that 99 % of people think they can. "Eat fewer calories than you burn" etc is not what happens in reality. Calories are measured by basically burning food. We don't digest food by burning it. We eat food, digest some of it and absorb some of that. Quite a bit goes straight through us without being absorbed in any way. No effort is made to measure calories on the way in and calories coming out of us. This is the problem.
They’re an excellent way laugh
They measure EXACTLY how much energy we take in. And if you think the energy it takes to digest the various macros, how much is excreted and what happens with them isn’t known- then you’re very much mistaken.

Energy balance- I detailed it above. A calorie is just a measure, like a mile or a km.

Eat less energy than the you use (and excrete) is exactly the same as saying eat fewer calories than you burn. It’s EXACTLY what happens in reality- there’s a lot of complex steps in between, but it’s what happens. Energy balance- and that’s what dictates weight loss and gain.



DaveGrohl

890 posts

96 months

Monday 29th March 2021
quotequote all
didelydoo said:
DaveGrohl said:
My point about calories was that calories are not a good way to measure what goes in and out of the human body, so can't be used in the way that 99 % of people think they can. "Eat fewer calories than you burn" etc is not what happens in reality. Calories are measured by basically burning food. We don't digest food by burning it. We eat food, digest some of it and absorb some of that. Quite a bit goes straight through us without being absorbed in any way. No effort is made to measure calories on the way in and calories coming out of us. This is the problem.
They’re an excellent way laugh
They measure EXACTLY how much energy we take in. And if you think the energy it takes to digest the various macros, how much is excreted and what happens with them isn’t known- then you’re very much mistaken.

Energy balance- I detailed it above. A calorie is just a measure, like a mile or a km.

Eat less energy than the you use (and excrete) is exactly the same as saying eat fewer calories than you burn. It’s EXACTLY what happens in reality- there’s a lot of complex steps in between, but it’s what happens. Energy balance- and that’s what dictates weight loss and gain.
Really? Could you point me to a source where all of this is taken account of then please wrt to calories in being adjusted for human removal during digestion. I look forward to that. I'm not even gonna start on the subject of carbs and fat and insulin.

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Monday 29th March 2021
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DaveGrohl said:
I'm not even gonna start on the subject of carbs and fat and insulin.
Oh please do laugh
The science is very settled in that respect. The insulin model of obesity has been debunked.

Bio availability of foods has been tested in many ways- there’s not a definitive list, but you can look up most foods- have a google wink It varies person to person, but you can get a general figure. Enough for an individual to work out how much energy they consume, and what will make you fat, make you thinner, or maintain you.

I’ve done this before, so I’ll not venture down this road on the Keto thread and go off topic. I know that it’s an emotive subject for Keto people and it’ll be defended whatever is said.

I’m not saying Keto doesn’t work, or calories are all that count, but if you think something other than energy balance is how weight gain/loss works..... You’re very mistaken. (I’m yet to find a well known neutral Keto proponent that is not selling a book promoting the diet)

I’ll leave you guys to it though. Good luck.


Edited by didelydoo on Monday 29th March 22:25

DaveGrohl

890 posts

96 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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didelydoo said:
DaveGrohl said:
I'm not even gonna start on the subject of carbs and fat and insulin.
Oh please do laugh
The science is very settled in that respect. The insulin model of obesity has been debunked.

Bio availability of foods has been tested in many ways- there’s not a definitive list, but you can look up most foods- have a google wink It varies person to person, but you can get a general figure. Enough for an individual to work out how much energy they consume, and what will make you fat, make you thinner, or maintain you.

I’ve done this before, so I’ll not venture down this road on the Keto thread and go off topic. I know that it’s an emotive subject for Keto people and it’ll be defended whatever is said.

I’m not saying Keto doesn’t work, or calories are all that count, but if you think something other than energy balance is how weight gain/loss works..... You’re very mistaken. (I’m yet to find a well known neutral Keto proponent that is not selling a book promoting the diet)

I’ll leave you guys to it though. Good luck.


Edited by didelydoo on Monday 29th March 22:25
Ah ok. You have your calorie theory and are happy with it. I'm happy for you, absolutely fine. I'm not on a keto diet btw and never have been. Whatever you do though, don't google Sam Feltham.

Louis Balfour

26,271 posts

221 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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DaveGrohl said:
Ah ok. You have your calorie theory and are happy with it. I'm happy for you, absolutely fine. I'm not on a keto diet btw and never have been. Whatever you do though, don't google Sam Feltham.
Sounds like a Razzle soft porn hoofer.


didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
quotequote all
DaveGrohl said:
Ah ok. You have your calorie theory and are happy with it. I'm happy for you, absolutely fine. I'm not on a keto diet btw and never have been. Whatever you do though, don't google Sam Feltham.
It’s not *my* theory. I am aware how biochemistry works. I’m aware macronutrients dictate body composition. Equalise protein and all diets result in the same *fat* loss (lots of trials showing this)
I’ve made enough people lean and muscular to know the practical application of nutrition too.
But disputing energy balance will need some clinical trials demonstrating otherwise before I’ll believe it..... btw, there are many many clinical trials proving it.

Sam Feltham laugh legit experiments on himself.... one appearing to gain 1.3kg of lean tissue in 3 week whilst losing fat. Well I’ll be- bodybuilders on steroids must be confused what they’re doing wrong! And he’s no books to sell... oh, hold on....
Perhaps you could point me towards some controlled clinical trials rather than one man self experiments put up on YouTube? Or are there none? Hmmmm

As I said, it’s not an opinion, it’s backed by the current science. Which is the best we have to go by. I’ll believe otherwise when it’s shown in legit trials.

Anyway, that’s my last word on the topic, believe what you like, but at base it on studies and trials- not just what people say.

And genuinely, best of luck, Keto works no doubt about it, just in the same way as all diets. But it’s sustainability is questionable- That’s why most (not all) of the people on this thread have done it a few times rather than stuck it out long term.

Anyway- enjoy the sun!


Louis Balfour

26,271 posts

221 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
quotequote all

Ever since I can remember there has been this sort of debate on PH.

My personal take on things is that keto probably isn't as healthy a way to eat as a diet involving carbs - long term. But keto has several key attractions.

1. In the first week you lose 3-4lb and even though you know it's water it's psychologically helpful.

2. You don't get the nagging hunger pangs of a low fat diet.

3. For certain sorts of exercise keto seems very suitable. Endurance type things notably, but not strength / power type stuff.

4. The foods you get to eat are (at least for a while) quite fun.

5. If you've got gut issues, that are triggered by sugar in the gut, keto reduces symptoms.

I don't think there is I don't think there are really any winners or losers, but do believe that a clean diet including carbs is probably on balance the better long-term option, if you have a healthy colon.

DaveGrohl

890 posts

96 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
quotequote all
didelydoo said:
DaveGrohl said:
Ah ok. You have your calorie theory and are happy with it. I'm happy for you, absolutely fine. I'm not on a keto diet btw and never have been. Whatever you do though, don't google Sam Feltham.
It’s not *my* theory. I am aware how biochemistry works. I’m aware macronutrients dictate body composition. Equalise protein and all diets result in the same *fat* loss (lots of trials showing this)
I’ve made enough people lean and muscular to know the practical application of nutrition too.
But disputing energy balance will need some clinical trials demonstrating otherwise before I’ll believe it..... btw, there are many many clinical trials proving it.

Sam Feltham laugh legit experiments on himself.... one appearing to gain 1.3kg of lean tissue in 3 week whilst losing fat. Well I’ll be- bodybuilders on steroids must be confused what they’re doing wrong! And he’s no books to sell... oh, hold on....
Perhaps you could point me towards some controlled clinical trials rather than one man self experiments put up on YouTube? Or are there none? Hmmmm

As I said, it’s not an opinion, it’s backed by the current science. Which is the best we have to go by. I’ll believe otherwise when it’s shown in legit trials.

Anyway, that’s my last word on the topic, believe what you like, but at base it on studies and trials- not just what people say.

And genuinely, best of luck, Keto works no doubt about it, just in the same way as all diets. But it’s sustainability is questionable- That’s why most (not all) of the people on this thread have done it a few times rather than stuck it out long term.

Anyway- enjoy the sun!
FYI I was talking about how most people view calories as printed on the labels of foods. You moved this to "energy balance", ignoring what I was saying. We feed animals by using things like metabolisable energy, digestible energy and many other things to do with different aspects of nutrition. These figures have been measured for all of the different foods fed to animals commercially. It came to be because they realised that they needed a better system than a crude measurement for what goes in at one end. They are freely available to all who need them. It's really not rocket science but it is compared to human labelling. And who mentioned YouTube? The extremely crude Feltham experiment was all about showing that 5000 calories is NOT the same as 5000 calories. If 5000 calories WAS the same as 5000 calories then people wouldn't lose weight on the keto diet. Again, I'm not advocating the keto diet as such, talking about calories.

Anyway, we'll agree to differ, makes no difference to me. I would however love to see any references you can post to show that the insulin model of obesity has been debunked (although I'm not quite sure what you mean by the insulin model of obesity other than its crucial role in partitioning blood components).

Mojooo

12,668 posts

179 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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If Keto makes you less hungry or less likely to snack isnt that one of the fundamental benefits if not the main one
Most people in the UK are probably fat because they overload of unnecessary snacks.

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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DaveGrohl said:
Anyway, we'll agree to differ, makes no difference to me. I would however love to see any references you can post to show that the insulin model of obesity has been debunked (although I'm not quite sure what you mean by the insulin model of obesity other than its crucial role in partitioning blood components).
The insulin model of obesity dictates that insulin, and not excess calories/energy causes obesity.
However, trails all show, that when protein is equalised, Keto results in no more fat loss than higher carb diets. Which would not be possible according to the insulin model.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC55680...
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33479499/

And a round up that saves me quoting a bunch more:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKjkS8dhvJU/?igshid=15...

A little further reading into some of them, and there’s also an explanation of how it was determined subjects were ‘Keto adapted’ so that can also be ruled out as an explanation.

Insulin does play a roll in fat storage off course, that’s not disputed - but it won’t make you gain weight in a calorific deficit. Energy balance trumps that.

I’m neutral when it comes to nutrition- different things work for different people, Keto works great for some, because it puts them in a deficit and they stick to in. Adherence is the #1 reason people fail on their diet, and very very few stick to keto after they’ve lost weight- they go back to normal, eat more, and then think Keto is a magic bullet. Anyway, I like to base what I say on things that have been repeatedly tested in a scientifically valid way.

I hope that’s of use, there’s a lot of reading, but I’m a nerd when it comes to this type of thing biggrin

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
quotequote all
Mojooo said:
If Keto makes you less hungry or less likely to snack isnt that one of the fundamental benefits if not the main one
Most people in the UK are probably fat because they overload of unnecessary snacks.
It works in a number of ways, all of which work better for normal people than starvation and willpower
- you burn more
- you eat better meals
- you don't snack
- you can't put 30 sugars in your FrappaMochaFatso
- you don't have to weigh anything
- you don't have to count anything

It's also good for all sorts of health markers.

But mostly it's pretty harmless to try - at worst you gave up cake and chips for a week - and for many it does work.



Raymond Reddington

2,964 posts

109 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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grumbledoak said:
It works in a number of ways, all of which work better for normal people than starvation and willpower
- you burn more
- you eat better meals
- you don't snack
- you can't put 30 sugars in your FrappaMochaFatso
- you don't have to weigh anything
- you don't have to count anything

It's also good for all sorts of health markers.

But mostly it's pretty harmless to try - at worst you gave up cake and chips for a week - and for many it does work.
A lot of people won't try keto because EATING MORE FAT IS BAD.

They won't think about the massive amounts of fat in the sugary, fatty foods they would eat normally wjich would probably add up to much less than adding a knob of grass-fed butter to your veggies. Being overweight carries its own risks entirely.

I can see a lot of benefits to keto.

some bloke

1,025 posts

66 months

Tuesday 30th March 2021
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Have you ever been overweight didelydoo?

grumbledoak

31,499 posts

232 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
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The PTs and body builders drop in every six months to tell us we're wrong and it's all calories. Calorie deficit and willpower is the way. The discomfort is part of the achievement.

You've only got the stroll down the High St to see that most people cannot do that.

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
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grumbledoak said:
The PTs and body builders drop in every six months to tell us we're wrong and it's all calories. Calorie deficit and willpower is the way. The discomfort is part of the achievement.

You've only got the stroll down the High St to see that most people cannot do that.
I’ve never once said you’re doing it wrong, just pointing out that your way isn’t the magic bullet you make it out to be, and it works like all the other diets do. It works, as do other ways. Some ways suit better than others depending on the person.

And if Keto doesn’t need will power, then why is it that long term adherence is incredibly low? All diets need will power, that’s how you get results

didelydoo

5,528 posts

209 months

Wednesday 31st March 2021
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some bloke said:
Have you ever been overweight didelydoo?
To a degree, yes. I’ve tried every diet variation under the sun as well laugh