Squats

[Hoofy]

RTB said:

I guess it depends what part of your knee is most fragile. Low depth squats look very bad for people with dodgy acls

Wow. That pic's amazing. Thanks for posting it. Really useful for discussing other sports.

PS Why do you say low depth is bad for ACL?

Edit: just noticed your reply to Halb covered my question.

Edited by Hoofy on Sunday 13th May 11:04

[ORD]

That’s curious - usually the weight helps you to hit depth. I can squat deeper with some weight than without weight. The weight helps you maintain tension and pushes you down into the hole. I’m not talking much weight here - maybe about 40kg-60kg works well for me.

I should say that this is assuming that you maintain tension. I can air squat very deep by relaxing a little, but I expect my lower back rounds slightly.

[TameRacingDriver]

ORD said:

That’s curious - usually the weight helps you to hit depth. I can squat deeper with some weight than without weight. The weight helps you maintain tension and pushes you down into the hole. I’m not talking much weight here - maybe about 40kg-60kg works well for me.

I should say that this is assuming that you maintain tension. I can air squat very deep by relaxing a little, but I expect my lower back rounds slightly.

I get pain in my knee trying to squat too low with heavy weight and not without. Also I'm conscious that I may not be able to push back up and injure myself or drop a bell on the floor which is not something I really want to happen lol.

[Halb]

RTB said:

By low depth I meant shallow. Low depth is probably a confusing term to use regarding squats..... swimming pools maybe, but not squats

Good article btw. I'll continue to go as low as my joints will allow. No injuries so far

Right!

For years people I've seen in the gym squat shallow, and I'd think of the stress on their knees. I used to try to get to parallel at the start, but then after reading/training/chatting for some time, went for as low as I could go. SO long as I don't get butt wink and my lumbar stays straight I'm good.

THese days, I still see shallow squats a heck of a lot, but I think there's been a definite increase in good squats I see, still not 50/50 but I see good technique now a hell of am lot more than I used to.

[Hoofy]

I guess what happens is they go heavier because they're not going as deep and so can end up using much more weight than their body is used to?

However, doesn't progressively building up shallow squats still strengthen things appropriately?

What I'm also thinking is that for most sports where you don't do deep squats, working partial air squats might be a useful exercise for high reps?

[popeyewhite]

ORD said:

The vast majority of people going ATG sacrifice form and tension for depth - they bomb into the hole and bounce off connective tissue to get back out,

They make use of (maybe unknowingly) the stretch/shortening cycle. An accepted technique it allows slightly heavier weight, at the expense of full glute activation. Everytime someone 'bounces' at the bottom this is what's happening.

[Mark300zx]

I Olympic lifted for about twenty years, if you are squatting for health benefits, I would avoid total atg as it levers the connective tissue around the knee, a few degrees above is fine. A lot of O lifters squat that way now, probably after seeing how their old coaches walk in their seniour years

[ORD]

popeyewhite said:

They make use of (maybe unknowingly) the stretch/shortening cycle. An accepted technique it allows slightly heavier weight, at the expense of full glute activation. Everytime someone 'bounces' at the bottom this is what's happening.

We all make use of the stretch shortening cycle and some bounce, unless we stop dead at the bottom for a couple of seconds (which is probably a bad idea in itself). It’s a matter of degree.

I agree, though - some people do seem to get huge bounce, but it’s hard to say how much is just bounce (which is problematic) and how much is that they are naturally explosive and are excellent at triggering a stretch reflex response. I’m not remotely explosive, so if I bounce, it’s all bounce!

I don’t agree with the suggestion above that shallow squats may be better for sports performance. Nobody squats in their sport (except weightlifters), so no squat is remotely specific to sport, shallow or deep. But that’s not the point. You are training strength (and hypertrophy), and squatting to depth is almost certainly better for those aims.

If people want to train explosive triple extension, which certainly is sports specific, they could do power cleans and jumps (all jumps are explosive partial squats, if you really want to extend the definition!) I think the idea that strength training should mirror sports movements is a bit overblown. You get better at sport by practising sport. Weight training just makes you stronger and/or bigger.

[Mark300zx]

OP why are you asking the question or in other words what goals are you trying to achieve?

[TameRacingDriver]

I've just tried doing 1 set of 8 reps, very light, to full depth, and very slow reps.

Legs are honestly destroyed

No knee pain though

[Mothersruin]

I'm doing the 5x5 at the moment - got to just over bodyweight on squats but have voluntarily dropped back down to 60kg on the last lot just to ensure the best possible form I can do, with the aim of ensuring that even the most minor of form errors will mean I scrap that weight until I can do it perfectly.

I realised after a rather uncomfortable tab up a very steep hill with kit (that had never ached before) that while I haven't been damaging my lower back, it has been taxing it while the smaller muscles catch up with the bigger ones. Going to make sure that everything is balanced before progression. I have no requirement to be super-strong, but I do need a decent functional strength.

Just want to make sure it's spot on.

[ORD]

Better to spend some money on a coaching session or two with someone competent. NB: this is almost certainly not a PT at a local gym.

[oddman]

Mark300zx said:

OP why are you asking the question or in other words what goals are you trying to achieve?

I think this is key

I include squats as 'prehab' for other sports. I take the simple view that if you use weights to get strength through and beyond the range of movement you use in your other activities you will be better and safer in your sport.

When I'm skiing in challenging terrain my ass will dip below knee level but not as low as when I squat. Having extra strength at these extremes helps performance and helps avoid injury.

[FoxtrotOscar1]

Mark300zx said:

OP why are you asking the question or in other words what goals are you trying to achieve?

I suppose I'm asking for advice from real people other than just what you read online. Experiences etc. The original question was sparked after a conversation with my training partner when I asked him why he only goes parallel. He genuinely believed he was going below. (All the squat racks are mirrored)
I squat low because its natural to me. Being tall if I only go parallel it almost seems like a half rep.

In regards to what I'm trying to achieve - Nothing really. Lifting is a hobby. I like to see changes in the body. My legs are probably as large as id like them.

[Mark300zx]

IMO I would just go a few degrees above ATG to avoid levering the knee joint, maybe video your form as well, as what you think may be a good squat is quite often not the case?

[FoxtrotOscar1]

Thanks for the advice.

[didelydoo]

I honestly think the best way to learn is to watch modern day Olympic weight lifters- they are the best squatters there are. Limb lengths will come in to play- but technically, they're the best.

Powerlifters can lift more perhaps (at elite levels) - but for a real athletic squat movement, built for leg strength and not compromised for maximal load within the rules- Oly lifters rule the roost IMO.

[ORD]

didelydoo said:

I honestly think the best way to learn is to watch modern day Olympic weight lifters- they are the best squatters there are. Limb lengths will come in to play- but technically, they're the best.

Powerlifters can lift more perhaps (at elite levels) - but for a real athletic squat movement, built for leg strength and not compromised for maximal load within the rules- Oly lifters rule the roost IMO.

I disagree. Olympic lifters just want to achieve the most depth that they can in order to reduce the height to which they have to accelerate the bar. They don't worry about long-term joint health. They are very young. They can devote hours per week to tissue quality, pre-hab and mobility work. And they are HUGELY genetically gifted (absurdly good muscle insertions, leverages and explosiveness).

I don't think either powerlifters or Oly lifters provide a sensible reference point for the recreational lifter.

The OP could do a lot worse than watching someone like you squat, DD. You're obviously gifted but you have goals other than moving the most weight, have a family and aren't 20 anymore. A much more relevant reference point, in my opinion.

All that said, if I had to squat like an Olympic lifter or a powerlifter, I would go for the Oly lifter. I would rather fk up my knees than fk up my hips and my knees

[Halb]

I agree DD, and I wish I knew that back when I started lifting

Edited by Halb on Monday 14th May 12:20

[ORD]

I agree strongly with DD's main point that you should go with what works best and most comfortably for you (assuming that your form is basically sound, for which you will probably need coaching). We all have different segment lengths, muscle insertions, mobility problems, etc. I trained for years and years without noticing that I have a hyper-mobile lower spine, almost zero thoracic movement and the hip flexibility of a granny.