Discussion
And not talk of high-mid-low bar positioning or even a safety squat bar?
For squats ill go to parallel or the hip crease just below - atg makes a knee feel like it has a balloon in the back of it even with an empty bar
For the 45 leg press thing, then the legs can fold up much more without the knees hurting
For squats ill go to parallel or the hip crease just below - atg makes a knee feel like it has a balloon in the back of it even with an empty bar
For the 45 leg press thing, then the legs can fold up much more without the knees hurting
ORD said:
I disagree. Olympic lifters just want to achieve the most depth that they can in order to reduce the height to which they have to accelerate the bar. They don't worry about long-term joint health. They are very young. They can devote hours per week to tissue quality, pre-hab and mobility work. And they are HUGELY genetically gifted (absurdly good muscle insertions, leverages and explosiveness).
I don't think either powerlifters or Oly lifters provide a sensible reference point for the recreational lifter.
The OP could do a lot worse than watching someone like you squat, DD. You're obviously gifted but you have goals other than moving the most weight, have a family and aren't 20 anymore. A much more relevant reference point, in my opinion.
All that said, if I had to squat like an Olympic lifter or a powerlifter, I would go for the Oly lifter. I would rather f
k up my knees than fk up my hips and my knees 
I guess that's true enough- I just like they way they move- with finesse- their form is perfect. Power, strength and it's dynamic.I don't think either powerlifters or Oly lifters provide a sensible reference point for the recreational lifter.
The OP could do a lot worse than watching someone like you squat, DD. You're obviously gifted but you have goals other than moving the most weight, have a family and aren't 20 anymore. A much more relevant reference point, in my opinion.
All that said, if I had to squat like an Olympic lifter or a powerlifter, I would go for the Oly lifter. I would rather f
k up my knees than fk up my hips and my knees Nowadays my squats all over the shop since I snapped- but I did find some decent vids from before the injury:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZDS1HXj9Eh/ (heavy single)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba3Qi2ODAVE/ (paused)
Technically these are probably as good as my squatting gets- tight form, no deviation- i'm pretty pleased with them.
Mark300zx said:
IMO squatting is just one tool for your workout, if I was a recreational lifter I would be cycling a wide range of exercises to avoid joint wear, improve aesthetics and whole range of other benefits.
Yup- it's a great movement, but not the be all and end all. For strength, it's hard to beat- but for mass/aesthetics it only works well for some.ORD said:
I would agree for intermediate lifters, but shouldn’t novices stick to the back squat until they get reasonably strong / stop making progress on a simple linear progression? I don’t think anyone needs to worry about exercise variety if they are squatting 60kg.
For some people 60kg is a lot of weight, for others 300kg, it is down to the individual, but there are too many tangibles in that statement to come up with a simple answer.Edited by Mark300zx on Monday 14th May 16:45
TameRacingDriver said:
When you guys say ATG, do you mean your arse actually has to touch the floor? I'm not sure I could actually ever do this...
I don't think that's geometrically possible. I take it to mean more or less sitting on your heels, arse probably 6-8" from the ground. I never go that low though because I think my knees would explode trying to move real weight from that depth.This guy is an awesome squatter, and I would call this ATG. But even he has slight rounding of the lumbar (although he specifically comments that he doesn't).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZWgTrZLd8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoZWgTrZLd8
didelydoo said:
I guess that's true enough- I just like they way they move- with finesse- their form is perfect. Power, strength and it's dynamic.
Nowadays my squats all over the shop since I snapped- but I did find some decent vids from before the injury:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZDS1HXj9Eh/ (heavy single)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba3Qi2ODAVE/ (paused)
Technically these are probably as good as my squatting gets- tight form, no deviation- i'm pretty pleased with them.
FWIW I would say my form is similar to yours. Bar position, hand position, depth, holding breath on the way down, feet slightly pointed out. I'm no where near those weights though.Nowadays my squats all over the shop since I snapped- but I did find some decent vids from before the injury:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZDS1HXj9Eh/ (heavy single)
https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba3Qi2ODAVE/ (paused)
Technically these are probably as good as my squatting gets- tight form, no deviation- i'm pretty pleased with them.
ORD said:
2 comments;
(1) The paused squat there is the most ATG I have seen without form degradation. An impressive lift!
(2) The strop when the strap broke for the huge deadlift was funny but minor! That could have been nasty.
(1) The paused squat there is the most ATG I have seen without form degradation. An impressive lift!
(2) The strop when the strap broke for the huge deadlift was funny but minor! That could have been nasty.
Honestly, look at DD's arm and general body movements in that flounce, and then watch a clip of Captain Jack Sparrow - the similarities are uncanny!
Ahhhh the barbell back squat. I've had a 3 year love/hate relationship with this excercise and have injured my back way too many times. I've watched countless folks in the gym squat, feel like I'm on first name basis with Alan Thrawl having seen so many of his vids. Tried high bar, low bar, memorised starting strength... you get the picture.
To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
If you don't get along with squats it isn't the end of the world, there was some debate for a while amongst O Lifting coaches as to whether they are worth the injury rate, and the Bulgarian squat was created as a variant. As I have said before unless you are competing they are one tool of many for gym goers, if it has any bearing I always found front squats to create better hypertrophy and shape.
stargazer30 said:
Ahhhh the barbell back squat. I've had a 3 year love/hate relationship with this excercise and have injured my back way too many times. I've watched countless folks in the gym squat, feel like I'm on first name basis with Alan Thrawl having seen so many of his vids. Tried high bar, low bar, memorised starting strength... you get the picture.
To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
It sounds to me like you need a good coach. I don’t mean a personal trainer that has never himself lifted seriously. I mean someone who has himself squatted serious weight to depth for years and taught others to do so. To answer the Ops question, I'd say don't go lower than your flexibility allows. In my case thats a rather pathetic 5 or so inches above parallel. Theres tons of advice online saying how you need to go to parallel or even ATG but based on what I've seen from the average gym goer and my experience, I say no. After all a shallow squat is better than no squat and an injured lower back will really mess you up.
Heres the problem though, most folks don't realise they aren't flexible enough to squat to depth. I'd say for every 10 folks I see squat in the gym only 1 or 2 can hit parallel without the lower back moving (the dreaded butt wink) and usually those 2 are women. In my case I was sure my lower back was stable until I started wearing a belt, then it became obvious it really wasn't as with the belt on you can feel it move slightly.
I would be surprised if you lack the mobility to hit parallel (with some coaching), unless you are very old or have a history of horrible injuries. The Starting Strength crew say that they encounter almost literally nobody that cannot squat to parallel.
Can you front squat? If you can’t squat to depth, you presumably cannot get even close to a deadlift from the floor?
Shallow squats might just about create some training effect, but my guess would be that it’s not worth it. You would be better doing Bulgarian split squats and trap bar deadlifts (with lots of forward knee travel to make it more like a squat).
ORD said:
It sounds to me like you need a good coach. I don’t mean a personal trainer that has never himself lifted seriously. I mean someone who has himself squatted serious weight to depth for years and taught others to do so.
I would be surprised if you lack the mobility to hit parallel (with some coaching), unless you are very old or have a history of horrible injuries. The Starting Strength crew say that they encounter almost literally nobody that cannot squat to parallel.
Can you front squat? If you can’t squat to depth, you presumably cannot get even close to a deadlift from the floor?
Shallow squats might just about create some training effect, but my guess would be that it’s not worth it. You would be better doing Bulgarian split squats and trap bar deadlifts (with lots of forward knee travel to make it more like a squat).
In my case 40years old. Life behind a desk until 3 years ago when I started to lift. Anterior pelvic tilt and chronic lower back pain as a result of the sendary lifestyle. I started Karate around the same time as I started to gym train which has helped my flexibility a bit but nothing has been able to cure my APT or allow me to squat to depth without injuring my lower back. That includes 3 different PTs all from different gyms over the years.I would be surprised if you lack the mobility to hit parallel (with some coaching), unless you are very old or have a history of horrible injuries. The Starting Strength crew say that they encounter almost literally nobody that cannot squat to parallel.
Can you front squat? If you can’t squat to depth, you presumably cannot get even close to a deadlift from the floor?
Shallow squats might just about create some training effect, but my guess would be that it’s not worth it. You would be better doing Bulgarian split squats and trap bar deadlifts (with lots of forward knee travel to make it more like a squat).
I can deadlift just fine, assuming the bar is on at least 20kg plates so its not literally on the floor! I only recently pulled my lower back on the deadlift for the first time ever, but that was my fault. I was trying to deadlift the same weight as I was before I'd lost 2 stone in weight and have been in a calories deficit for 5 months.
Personal trainers mostly have no clue about lifting weights, so I would not take anything from what they have said. Almost every PT I have ever used or watched train was an ego lifter and/or wanna-be bodybuilder.
If you can deadlift, you must be able to set your lower back into extension (or at least neutral) while getting into deep hip flexion. If you can do those things, I would have thought your problem with squats is probably not your lower back or pelvic tilt. It’s probably technique and/or a problem at the ankle. A good coach could tell you for certain in about 2 minutes of watching you.
Have you considered Starting Strength Online Coaching? If there are no decent strength coaches around where you live, that might be a good idea. (Personally, I would probably not go along with some of what they say about bar position and degrees of hip flexion, but they’ll be excellent at telling you what’s gone wrong in your movement and how to fix it.)
Anyway, that’s just my amateur view on the problem! Best of luck.
If you can deadlift, you must be able to set your lower back into extension (or at least neutral) while getting into deep hip flexion. If you can do those things, I would have thought your problem with squats is probably not your lower back or pelvic tilt. It’s probably technique and/or a problem at the ankle. A good coach could tell you for certain in about 2 minutes of watching you.
Have you considered Starting Strength Online Coaching? If there are no decent strength coaches around where you live, that might be a good idea. (Personally, I would probably not go along with some of what they say about bar position and degrees of hip flexion, but they’ll be excellent at telling you what’s gone wrong in your movement and how to fix it.)
Anyway, that’s just my amateur view on the problem! Best of luck.
ORD said:
Personal trainers mostly have no clue about lifting weights, so I would not take anything from what they have said. Almost every PT I have ever used or watched train was an ego lifter and/or wanna-be bodybuilder.
If you can deadlift, you must be able to set your lower back into extension (or at least neutral) while getting into deep hip flexion. If you can do those things, I would have thought your problem with squats is probably not your lower back or pelvic tilt. It’s probably technique and/or a problem at the ankle. A good coach could tell you for certain in about 2 minutes of watching you.
Have you considered Starting Strength Online Coaching? If there are no decent strength coaches around where you live, that might be a good idea. (Personally, I would probably not go along with some of what they say about bar position and degrees of hip flexion, but they’ll be excellent at telling you what’s gone wrong in your movement and how to fix it.)
Anyway, that’s just my amateur view on the problem! Best of luck.
The thing is with deadlifts, I can set my back neutral, load my hamstrings, and worst case once I start the pull my back will round slightly under the load. I can feel it with my belt and I know to back off but it won't injure me or cause back pain. With the squat, its a balancing act. In order to keep the bar balanced I can't lean forward or round my back or I'll fall forward and my knees will get it. If you can deadlift, you must be able to set your lower back into extension (or at least neutral) while getting into deep hip flexion. If you can do those things, I would have thought your problem with squats is probably not your lower back or pelvic tilt. It’s probably technique and/or a problem at the ankle. A good coach could tell you for certain in about 2 minutes of watching you.
Have you considered Starting Strength Online Coaching? If there are no decent strength coaches around where you live, that might be a good idea. (Personally, I would probably not go along with some of what they say about bar position and degrees of hip flexion, but they’ll be excellent at telling you what’s gone wrong in your movement and how to fix it.)
Anyway, that’s just my amateur view on the problem! Best of luck.
When using high bar, the lower I go the harder it gets. As I get near parallel I have to hyperextend (not sure if thats the correct term but opposite of rounding) my lower back to keep the bar balanced, I can't keep it neutral anymore. Its this movement under load and then getting back up from the hole whilst hyperextended that does the damage and causes the pain.
If I use low bar, it gets around this a bit, but with low bar you have more forward lean to keep the bar over mid foot anyway. This turns the squat into a mini sort of good morning and again once loaded it puts too much pressure on the lower back and causes pain and eventually injury.
I recon if I could front squat I'd have no problem but I cannot get the bar balanced properly, very painful for me.
Its really not helped by my legs either. I was squatting 100kg 3x5 for a while and my legs were like, meh, no big deal. Yet my back was, if you don't sod off I'm gonna snap in half.
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