Does anyone know an Anti Covid vaxxer?
Discussion
Many are of the view that COVID is not really that serious for most people. Others are completely terrified. Probably somewhere in the middle: a bad virus, but no worse than many before, or likely to appear in future.
How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
Difficult said:
Many are of the view that COVID is not really that serious for most people. Others are completely terrified. Probably somewhere in the middle: a bad virus, but no worse than many before, or likely to appear in future.
How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
Godwin #4How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
And assuming that people who disagree with you about vaccines want to see you gassed -
AW111 said:
Difficult said:
Many are of the view that COVID is not really that serious for most people. Others are completely terrified. Probably somewhere in the middle: a bad virus, but no worse than many before, or likely to appear in future.
How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
Godwin #4How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
And assuming that people who disagree with you about vaccines want to see you gassed -
Perhaps Difficult isn’t putting his point across in a manner to which you are in agreement with.
You’ve heard of ‘mission creep’ right? Sometimes that happens by design, (deception), other times by accident, (incompetence).
I truly value my liberty, as should you and everyone else. You may scorn at some of the things that Difficult is saying, but that doesn’t make those things entirely untrue.
In Germany, (as far as I’m aware), if you don’t have ‘the jab’ then you can be locked up until you do.
In Canada, people are being placed in quarantine centres whereby they and their family has no idea where they are.
In New York an estimated 13’000 elderly people have died after regular patients with Covid have been moved from hospitals into care homes for the elderly when there was a perfectly suitable Navy hospital ship available. Local Government has done all it can to cover this up.
Do you remember “15 days to flatten the curve”? Can you even begin to imagine the financial cost of all of this that multiple generations will be paying off.
I’ll give politicians the benefit of the doubt and say that what we’ve seen over the past 12 months has been incompetence on a biblical scale. That’s not just politicians in this country by the way, but pretty much the world over. The alternative to sheer incompetence is even more frightening.
Perhaps Difficult is being a little hyperbolic, (no offence Difficult), but I don’t think he’s a million miles wide of the mark either.
If you want to come back, laugh in my face and call me an idiot, then that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.
105.4 said:
AW111, please, don’t take this the wrong way. I don’t come on to PH for a bloody good argument. That’s not the kind of bloke I am. If you or anyone else thinks that I’m a fool then so be it. I can live with that.
Perhaps Difficult isn’t putting his point across in a manner to which you are in agreement with.
You’ve heard of ‘mission creep’ right? Sometimes that happens by design, (deception), other times by accident, (incompetence).
I truly value my liberty, as should you and everyone else. You may scorn at some of the things that Difficult is saying, but that doesn’t make those things entirely untrue.
In Germany, (as far as I’m aware), if you don’t have ‘the jab’ then you can be locked up until you do.
In Canada, people are being placed in quarantine centres whereby they and their family has no idea where they are.
In New York an estimated 13’000 elderly people have died after regular patients with Covid have been moved from hospitals into care homes for the elderly when there was a perfectly suitable Navy hospital ship available. Local Government has done all it can to cover this up.
Do you remember “15 days to flatten the curve”? Can you even begin to imagine the financial cost of all of this that multiple generations will be paying off.
I’ll give politicians the benefit of the doubt and say that what we’ve seen over the past 12 months has been incompetence on a biblical scale. That’s not just politicians in this country by the way, but pretty much the world over. The alternative to sheer incompetence is even more frightening.
Perhaps Difficult is being a little hyperbolic, (no offence Difficult), but I don’t think he’s a million miles wide of the mark either.
If you want to come back, laugh in my face and call me an idiot, then that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.
I'm not going to do that.Perhaps Difficult isn’t putting his point across in a manner to which you are in agreement with.
You’ve heard of ‘mission creep’ right? Sometimes that happens by design, (deception), other times by accident, (incompetence).
I truly value my liberty, as should you and everyone else. You may scorn at some of the things that Difficult is saying, but that doesn’t make those things entirely untrue.
In Germany, (as far as I’m aware), if you don’t have ‘the jab’ then you can be locked up until you do.
In Canada, people are being placed in quarantine centres whereby they and their family has no idea where they are.
In New York an estimated 13’000 elderly people have died after regular patients with Covid have been moved from hospitals into care homes for the elderly when there was a perfectly suitable Navy hospital ship available. Local Government has done all it can to cover this up.
Do you remember “15 days to flatten the curve”? Can you even begin to imagine the financial cost of all of this that multiple generations will be paying off.
I’ll give politicians the benefit of the doubt and say that what we’ve seen over the past 12 months has been incompetence on a biblical scale. That’s not just politicians in this country by the way, but pretty much the world over. The alternative to sheer incompetence is even more frightening.
Perhaps Difficult is being a little hyperbolic, (no offence Difficult), but I don’t think he’s a million miles wide of the mark either.
If you want to come back, laugh in my face and call me an idiot, then that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, just as we all are.
I take offence at people making spurious comparisons between covid vaccination (however badly mishandled) and the deliberate slaughter of millions of people by a genocidal regime. It's folly, and contributes nothing.
To then extend that to accusing people who aren't anti-covax of wanting that outcome and wanting people to be treated badly is stupid and paranoid.
I'm not accusing you of either of those things.
Regarding Covid generally, I have been gobsmacked by the ineptitude, backflips and incompetence of the UK govt.
It's no surprise that UK residents don't trust what the government says - I wouldn't trust Boris on any subject except his ambition.
I'm in Australia (Melbourne) which has handled Covid quite differently.
We had lockdown for most of 2020, and guess what?
The economy hasn't collapsed.
There hasn't been a crisis of mental health. Nor suicide.
People (including me) have generally been able to access normal medical care, including hospitalisation.
The country hasn't turned into a dictatorship.
People are unhappy, but on the whole trust that the govt is trying their best.
This is true for a number of SE Asian countries.
When I'm offered the vaccine, I'll be taking it, not purely for myself, but because some of my family are in the extreme high-risk category.
I would be devastated to pass on an infection to someone else because I refused to wear a mask or get vaccinated.
Difficult said:
Many are of the view that COVID is not really that serious for most people. Others are completely terrified. Probably somewhere in the middle: a bad virus, but no worse than many before, or likely to appear in future.
How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
You seem to be be full of alarmism and foreboding of an impending Holocaust. How did the terrified become so? Personal experience - people dropping like flies in the street - or government propaganda? OK - maybe more like social media and tabloid madness to start with rather than a deliberate government agenda. But you can't deny the government have really whipped things up using all the old tricks from the Joseph Goebbels' playbook.
They even had to invent long COVID because short COVID was just not scary or deadly enough.
We are where we are. Governments everywhere over-reacted with the lockdowns, and have stoked up fear to the point where they can't now just backtrack and say "we got it a bit wrong, as you were...". So they have had to rush through any old vaccines without testing them, then whip up the panic even more so they can ensure enough people have been jabbed happy. Only then can they claim to have saved the world. But, you know, those new non-democratic emergency powers - we'll need to keep them for the next time.
Choose the vaccine. Or choose no holiday. No job. No shop. No pub. No outside. No answering the door just in case it's your turn for the train to the ghetto / colony / camp. Or maybe you'll be lucky and get to go on the bus with the nice big hose connecting the exhaust to the air conditioning.
We won't get the full-on death camp experience this time - but we all know where this stuff ends up if its not checked early. My fear is not the virus, or even the vaccine. But the willingness of some people to allow themselves to be terrified to the point where they'll quite happily insist that anyone without the correct papers can't be allowed in their society. They can kid themselves that anyone refusing the vaccine must be mentally defective, or too impure to live in their world. Once they do that - and there are some on this thread already exhibiting the signs - then next step involves showers without water.
I see it a bit simpler and less genocidal or Eastern Bloc:
There’s a virus.
It kills 3% and only the virus chooses who to kill
Govt try to protect us, to prevent panic and save lives
They do some things badly, others well.
There’s a vaccine
We take it
It gets back to normal
Louis Balfour said:
I am going to have the vaccine despite my scepticism about it and a sincere belief that the government will suppress any concerns about the vaccine.
I think it has been rushed through, I think the long-term sides are as yet unknown and I also think that if I contract COVID I'll be fine.
I am all for following one's own path. But I think this is a situation where there will be disruptive consequences for those who don't have it. Holidays, restaurants and who knows what else may become off limits to those who have declined.
My thoughts exactly. Particularly the last paragraph. I’m 53 and got a text last Thursday and I’ve got my appointments for the vaccine booked with the first next Friday and the 2nd on 21st May so by mid June I should be ok to travel, etc, if there’s any kind of COVID passport. My wife is likely to be a pissed off I can though, because being 8 years younger means she’s further down the list. I think it has been rushed through, I think the long-term sides are as yet unknown and I also think that if I contract COVID I'll be fine.
I am all for following one's own path. But I think this is a situation where there will be disruptive consequences for those who don't have it. Holidays, restaurants and who knows what else may become off limits to those who have declined.
In answer to the OP I have a guy working for me who’s a complete conspiracy loon believing in chemtrails, 5G mind control, suppressed cancer cures, and all that other nonsense who thinks that COVID is all made up so that Bill Gates and others can inject us with some kind of tracker via the vaccine. The irony that he carries two mobile phones and that he posts every minutia of his life on Facebook is lost on him. He seems like a nice, normal, bright down to earth guy but still believes this s
te. V6 Pushfit said:
You seem to be be full of alarmism and foreboding of an impending Holocaust.
I see it a bit simpler and less genocidal or Eastern Bloc:
There’s a virus.
It kills 3% and only the virus chooses who to kill
Govt try to protect us, to prevent panic and save lives
They do some things badly, others well.
There’s a vaccine
We take it
It gets back to normal
It kills 3%? Someone should update those scientists.I see it a bit simpler and less genocidal or Eastern Bloc:
There’s a virus.
It kills 3% and only the virus chooses who to kill
Govt try to protect us, to prevent panic and save lives
They do some things badly, others well.
There’s a vaccine
We take it
It gets back to normal
V6 Pushfit said:
It isn’t 99.7% though. Theres a figure floating around that it’s ‘99.97% survival rate’ which is derived from the current death rate worldwide being ‘0.03’ which the worlds numbskulls think is taken away from 100 without realising 0.03 is 3%, so a survival rate of 97% ie 100 times higher.
Anyway that aside, the worldwide average is 3% but we stopped giving recovery numbers early on so we can’t calculate it here. But it’s certainly waaay above average here as we’ve been hard hit. Additionally only about 2/3 of those that go into hospital walk out.
On the basis only Covid chooses who to kill I’m having the vaccine and the anti vaxxers who also want to flout every recommendation to reduce infection can fk right off down the road as far as I’m concerned.
how do you calculate this?Anyway that aside, the worldwide average is 3% but we stopped giving recovery numbers early on so we can’t calculate it here. But it’s certainly waaay above average here as we’ve been hard hit. Additionally only about 2/3 of those that go into hospital walk out.
On the basis only Covid chooses who to kill I’m having the vaccine and the anti vaxxers who also want to flout every recommendation to reduce infection can f
k right off down the road as far as I’m concerned.Official global deaths stand at 2,538,333 which on a global population of 7.8 billion I make 0.03%.
UK deaths at 122k are 0.18% of pop.
Anyway back on topic define anti vaxer, like so much today it gets muddied and turned into a binary issue. On the one hand I know people talking utter codswallop such as covid is a conspiracy to wipe out all the old people and the vaccine whatever.... I'm sure there's easier ways for the government to get mind control/whatever they think into people....
And on the other hand Its not unreasonable to be concerned at the long term implications of experimental/rushed drugs, especially so when (1) for anyone young and healthly the risk from covid is miniscule, the above figures are overwhelmingly weighted to elderly nearing end of life, sorry to be blunt, but its not something as a fit 43 yr old I have reason to fear. (Probably had it last Feb anyway) (2) its not like humans don't have an extensive history of screwing up by not understanding what they're doing, DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, lead paint, and so on and so on.
If I'm told to take it ill take it so I can get back to the pub and gigs and flying to exciting places and motor races etc. It'll probably be fine. But anyone not at least a little concerned is by definition a fool, and exercising blind faith not logic... maybe if I was a 20 yr old girl planning to have kids and thinking what implications a largely untested and unknown vaccine might have, compared to a virus thats vanishingly unlikely to seriously affect me, I'd say that's a wholly justifiable concern to have.
But like so much today you're assigned a binary position with no nuance, as in the social media age the extremities get to set the tone of the conversation that too many centrists are bullied into picking from, rather than laughing at.
Teddy Lop said:
how do you calculate this?
Official global deaths stand at 2,538,333 which on a global population of 7.8 billion I make 0.03%.
UK deaths at 122k are 0.18% of pop.
Anyway back on topic define anti vaxer, like so much today it gets muddied and turned into a binary issue. On the one hand I know people talking utter codswallop such as covid is a conspiracy to wipe out all the old people and the vaccine whatever.... I'm sure there's easier ways for the government to get mind control/whatever they think into people....
And on the other hand Its not unreasonable to be concerned at the long term implications of experimental/rushed drugs, especially so when (1) for anyone young and healthly the risk from covid is miniscule, the above figures are overwhelmingly weighted to elderly nearing end of life, sorry to be blunt, but its not something as a fit 43 yr old I have reason to fear. (Probably had it last Feb anyway) (2) its not like humans don't have an extensive history of screwing up by not understanding what they're doing, DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, lead paint, and so on and so on.
If I'm told to take it ill take it so I can get back to the pub and gigs and flying to exciting places and motor races etc. It'll probably be fine. But anyone not at least a little concerned is by definition a fool, and exercising blind faith not logic... maybe if I was a 20 yr old girl planning to have kids and thinking what implications a largely untested and unknown vaccine might have, compared to a virus thats vanishingly unlikely to seriously affect me, I'd say that's a wholly justifiable concern to have.
But like so much today you're assigned a binary position with no nuance, as in the social media age the extremities get to set the tone of the conversation that too many centrists are bullied into picking from, rather than laughing at.
Teddy, thank you for reply will discuss shortly. Just replying now to clarify your numbers.Official global deaths stand at 2,538,333 which on a global population of 7.8 billion I make 0.03%.
UK deaths at 122k are 0.18% of pop.
Anyway back on topic define anti vaxer, like so much today it gets muddied and turned into a binary issue. On the one hand I know people talking utter codswallop such as covid is a conspiracy to wipe out all the old people and the vaccine whatever.... I'm sure there's easier ways for the government to get mind control/whatever they think into people....
And on the other hand Its not unreasonable to be concerned at the long term implications of experimental/rushed drugs, especially so when (1) for anyone young and healthly the risk from covid is miniscule, the above figures are overwhelmingly weighted to elderly nearing end of life, sorry to be blunt, but its not something as a fit 43 yr old I have reason to fear. (Probably had it last Feb anyway) (2) its not like humans don't have an extensive history of screwing up by not understanding what they're doing, DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, lead paint, and so on and so on.
If I'm told to take it ill take it so I can get back to the pub and gigs and flying to exciting places and motor races etc. It'll probably be fine. But anyone not at least a little concerned is by definition a fool, and exercising blind faith not logic... maybe if I was a 20 yr old girl planning to have kids and thinking what implications a largely untested and unknown vaccine might have, compared to a virus thats vanishingly unlikely to seriously affect me, I'd say that's a wholly justifiable concern to have.
But like so much today you're assigned a binary position with no nuance, as in the social media age the extremities get to set the tone of the conversation that too many centrists are bullied into picking from, rather than laughing at.
As of yesterday 4,170,519 people who have tested positive, that’s people not positive tests so should exclude repeat tests.
Deaths within 28 days (which will miss those who had long admissions from it but died from other complications) are 122,705. If died with COVID on death certificate it’s higher 135,613.
If just taking within 28 days it’s 2.94% mortality, with COVID its 3.25% mortality. Defined as death following inoculation with COVID 19.
You can’t work out mortality based on those who haven’t caught it yet because they may not have been exposed to it and remain susceptible. Yes not everyone who had it might not have been tested and yes the percentage of death may decrease but circa 3% is very high.
Edited by shost on Sunday 28th February 11:46
Edited by shost on Sunday 28th February 11:52
shost said:
Teddy, thank you for reply will discuss shortly. Just replying now to correct your sums.
As of yesterday 4,170,519 people who have tested positive, that’s people not positive tests so should exclude repeat tests.
Deaths within 28 days (which will miss those who had long admissions from it but died from other complications) are 122,705. If died with COVID on death certificate it’s higher 135,613.
If just taking within 28 days it’s 2.94% mortality, with COVID its 3.25% mortality.
You can’t work out mortality based on those who haven’t caught it yet because they may not have been exposed to it and remain susceptible.
it might seem fair to use % of positive tests but its very flawed as we know of every with-covid death but we've logged only a fraction of cases and even less exposures, and that's before you factor for age or health.As of yesterday 4,170,519 people who have tested positive, that’s people not positive tests so should exclude repeat tests.
Deaths within 28 days (which will miss those who had long admissions from it but died from other complications) are 122,705. If died with COVID on death certificate it’s higher 135,613.
If just taking within 28 days it’s 2.94% mortality, with COVID its 3.25% mortality.
You can’t work out mortality based on those who haven’t caught it yet because they may not have been exposed to it and remain susceptible.
Take for example the USS Roosevelt being as it was a handy reasonably closed ecosystem to study, 4800 odd working in close quarters and you'd have to expect everyone had repeated close quarter exposure, yet only 27% actually tested positive, of which 77% were symptonless and only 55% developed any symptoms at all, and of 1300 odd positives 4 needed intensive care and 1 succumbed.
Teddy Lop said:
V6 Pushfit said:
It isn’t 99.7% though. Theres a figure floating around that it’s ‘99.97% survival rate’ which is derived from the current death rate worldwide being ‘0.03’ which the worlds numbskulls think is taken away from 100 without realising 0.03 is 3%, so a survival rate of 97% ie 100 times higher.
Anyway that aside, the worldwide average is 3% but we stopped giving recovery numbers early on so we can’t calculate it here. But it’s certainly waaay above average here as we’ve been hard hit. Additionally only about 2/3 of those that go into hospital walk out.
On the basis only Covid chooses who to kill I’m having the vaccine and the anti vaxxers who also want to flout every recommendation to reduce infection can fk right off down the road as far as I’m concerned.
how do you calculate this?Anyway that aside, the worldwide average is 3% but we stopped giving recovery numbers early on so we can’t calculate it here. But it’s certainly waaay above average here as we’ve been hard hit. Additionally only about 2/3 of those that go into hospital walk out.
On the basis only Covid chooses who to kill I’m having the vaccine and the anti vaxxers who also want to flout every recommendation to reduce infection can f
k right off down the road as far as I’m concerned.Official global deaths stand at 2,538,333 which on a global population of 7.8 billion I make 0.03%.
UK deaths at 122k are 0.18% of pop.
Anyway back on topic define anti vaxer, like so much today it gets muddied and turned into a binary issue. On the one hand I know people talking utter codswallop such as covid is a conspiracy to wipe out all the old people and the vaccine whatever.... I'm sure there's easier ways for the government to get mind control/whatever they think into people....
And on the other hand Its not unreasonable to be concerned at the long term implications of experimental/rushed drugs, especially so when (1) for anyone young and healthly the risk from covid is miniscule, the above figures are overwhelmingly weighted to elderly nearing end of life, sorry to be blunt, but its not something as a fit 43 yr old I have reason to fear. (Probably had it last Feb anyway) (2) its not like humans don't have an extensive history of screwing up by not understanding what they're doing, DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, lead paint, and so on and so on.
If I'm told to take it ill take it so I can get back to the pub and gigs and flying to exciting places and motor races etc. It'll probably be fine. But anyone not at least a little concerned is by definition a fool, and exercising blind faith not logic... maybe if I was a 20 yr old girl planning to have kids and thinking what implications a largely untested and unknown vaccine might have, compared to a virus thats vanishingly unlikely to seriously affect me, I'd say that's a wholly justifiable concern to have.
But like so much today you're assigned a binary position with no nuance, as in the social media age the extremities get to set the tone of the conversation that too many centrists are bullied into picking from, rather than laughing at.
This does not include everyone, but there does seem to be a considerable push from the older generations to get younger and younger people vaccinated. This was a government that did say vaccination of the old and vulnerable were our route out of this mess. Now it seems to be gaining traction for the whole of the population.
Where do we stop? At what age do we say that's enough vaccinated? If you have protected the vulnerable, what more can you do? That seems to be the thoughts of my parents in their late 60's.
This is a generation that financially has generally been much better insulated from the fallout of all this and now want to get their lives back and get that holiday or cruise booked. Their energies would I feel be much better used to help out the generations that have sacrificed a lot for them by pushing the government to open up the economy sooner rather than later.
Only then can they start rebuilding their livelihoods.
I've ummed and aahed about having it but I'm going to for the simple reason that I think a 'vaccine passport' will become a thing and I don't want my life further restricted when this is over.
I don't buy into any conspiracy theories about any of it either.
With regards to having it, I don't think it should be mandatory and people should be able to choose but, if you don't have it, then you shouldn't be offended if you can't, as a random example, go to New Zealand because they want you to be vaccinated. To my mind it's no different to having proof you've had the yellow fever jab before being allowed in some African countries.
I don't buy into any conspiracy theories about any of it either.
With regards to having it, I don't think it should be mandatory and people should be able to choose but, if you don't have it, then you shouldn't be offended if you can't, as a random example, go to New Zealand because they want you to be vaccinated. To my mind it's no different to having proof you've had the yellow fever jab before being allowed in some African countries.
Dentist here for what it’s worth.
I won’t be having the vaccine unless absolutely forced to, for eg being allowed to travel internationally. Even then I wouldn’t be bloody happy about it.
Reason? I find it very strange that a vaccine should be pushed so hard for something that effects such a tiny amount of people. I don’t know why they’re doing it, it doesn’t make sense and that makes me uneasy enough to want to avoid it.
If 1% of people are vulnerable then vaccinate them and confine them but let the rest of us catch it, get immune and get on with it including our kids.
Appart from that I’m neither old nor sick so there’s no point.
I won’t be having the vaccine unless absolutely forced to, for eg being allowed to travel internationally. Even then I wouldn’t be bloody happy about it.
Reason? I find it very strange that a vaccine should be pushed so hard for something that effects such a tiny amount of people. I don’t know why they’re doing it, it doesn’t make sense and that makes me uneasy enough to want to avoid it.
If 1% of people are vulnerable then vaccinate them and confine them but let the rest of us catch it, get immune and get on with it including our kids.
Appart from that I’m neither old nor sick so there’s no point.
Edited by Driller on Sunday 28th February 13:05
Teddy Lop said:
it might seem fair to use % of positive tests but its very flawed as we know of every with-covid death but we've logged only a fraction of cases and even less exposures, and that's before you factor for age or health.
Take for example the USS Roosevelt being as it was a handy reasonably closed ecosystem to study, 4800 odd working in close quarters and you'd have to expect everyone had repeated close quarter exposure, yet only 27% actually tested positive, of which 77% were symptonless and only 55% developed any symptoms at all, and of 1300 odd positives 4 needed intensive care and 1 succumbed.
Agree it’s not perfect, and certainly for the first wave I’m sure many mild cases were missed. I’d hope now with widespread availability of testing most symptomatic people would get tested. I’m sure those from low socioeconomic backgrounds and young are probably underrepresented in the stats too. Take for example the USS Roosevelt being as it was a handy reasonably closed ecosystem to study, 4800 odd working in close quarters and you'd have to expect everyone had repeated close quarter exposure, yet only 27% actually tested positive, of which 77% were symptonless and only 55% developed any symptoms at all, and of 1300 odd positives 4 needed intensive care and 1 succumbed.
I wasn’t aware of the Roosevelt case study, and it is interesting. The report suggests 400 people contact traced from original three cases, so yes many confined spaces but even so they weren’t in contact with ethe majority of the crew. It was 13 days at sea, so I assume they were all assymptomatic before then. If one had been infected day 0, then from around day 5 they’ll have first symptoms. What I’m saying is 13 days means that not long has passed given the incubation period. See the graph. The index case was probably someone as symptomatic. Yet in that short time a quarter infected. Despite contract tracing being performed with 24hrs.
I think this case shows just how quickly in can spread and how assymptomatic particularly young people can be, therefore acting as super spreaders. In terms of the effects of the virus on the population is highly unrepresentative of a normal population, mean age under 30 and interquartile range below 35. Yet still one person died from something they didn’t have a few days before. I would be very reluctant to say COVID isn’t a problem to you unless you are under 35 and able to pass fitness test for the US Navy. Even so there is a duty to reduce spread to others who aren’t under 35 with minimal health issues.
Edited by shost on Sunday 28th February 13:10
I have no issue with vaccine passports to get into other countries; their countries, their rules
I have a very big problem with the concept of domestic vaccine passports, but that is one of principle and civil liberties. It's an issue for me but I get that it is not an issue for others. That doesn't mean I'm anti vax, just that I'm anti vax passport..
The vaccine is new and has not been tested for as long as any other previous vaccine.
At 45 I am not, nor have I at any point through this, been concerned about the risk of covid. I do however think that on balance as of Feb 2021, the risk of covid to me is probably slightly higher than the risk of the vaccine to me. So yes I will get the vaccine. Just as I have had other vaccines and just as my children have and will continue to get them as well.
Just on the 3% lethality point. That 3% depends on:
Your numerator of the positively tested people being the only positive people in the country
Your denominator of the identified covid deaths actually being covid deaths
The stratification of the death rates in those of different ages, ethnicity and underlying health conditions.
All of which has now been superseded by the effects of the vaccines in any case.
I have a very big problem with the concept of domestic vaccine passports, but that is one of principle and civil liberties. It's an issue for me but I get that it is not an issue for others. That doesn't mean I'm anti vax, just that I'm anti vax passport..
The vaccine is new and has not been tested for as long as any other previous vaccine.
At 45 I am not, nor have I at any point through this, been concerned about the risk of covid. I do however think that on balance as of Feb 2021, the risk of covid to me is probably slightly higher than the risk of the vaccine to me. So yes I will get the vaccine. Just as I have had other vaccines and just as my children have and will continue to get them as well.
Just on the 3% lethality point. That 3% depends on:
Your numerator of the positively tested people being the only positive people in the country
Your denominator of the identified covid deaths actually being covid deaths
The stratification of the death rates in those of different ages, ethnicity and underlying health conditions.
All of which has now been superseded by the effects of the vaccines in any case.
ben5575 said:
I have no issue with vaccine passports to get into other countries; their countries, their rules
I have a very big problem with the concept of domestic vaccine passports, but that is one of principle and civil liberties. It's an issue for me but I get that it is not an issue for others. That doesn't mean I'm anti vax, just that I'm anti vax passport..
The vaccine is new and has not been tested for as long as any other previous vaccine.
At 45 I am not, nor have I at any point through this, been concerned about the risk of covid. I do however think that on balance as of Feb 2021, the risk of covid to me is probably slightly higher than the risk of the vaccine to me. So yes I will get the vaccine. Just as I have had other vaccines and just as my children have and will continue to get them as well.
Just on the 3% lethality point. That 3% depends on:
Your numerator of the positively tested people being the only positive people in the country
Your denominator of the identified covid deaths actually being covid deaths
The stratification of the death rates in those of different ages, ethnicity and underlying health conditions.
All of which has now been superseded by the effects of the vaccines in any case.
Pretty much how I feel. I certainly don't agree with having to show it in the UK if you're a UK citizen.I have a very big problem with the concept of domestic vaccine passports, but that is one of principle and civil liberties. It's an issue for me but I get that it is not an issue for others. That doesn't mean I'm anti vax, just that I'm anti vax passport..
The vaccine is new and has not been tested for as long as any other previous vaccine.
At 45 I am not, nor have I at any point through this, been concerned about the risk of covid. I do however think that on balance as of Feb 2021, the risk of covid to me is probably slightly higher than the risk of the vaccine to me. So yes I will get the vaccine. Just as I have had other vaccines and just as my children have and will continue to get them as well.
Just on the 3% lethality point. That 3% depends on:
Your numerator of the positively tested people being the only positive people in the country
Your denominator of the identified covid deaths actually being covid deaths
The stratification of the death rates in those of different ages, ethnicity and underlying health conditions.
All of which has now been superseded by the effects of the vaccines in any case.
AW111 said:
I'm not going to do that.
I take offence at people making spurious comparisons between covid vaccination (however badly mishandled) and the deliberate slaughter of millions of people by a genocidal regime. It's folly, and contributes nothing.
To then extend that to accusing people who aren't anti-covax of wanting that outcome and wanting people to be treated badly is stupid and paranoid.
I'm not accusing you of either of those things.
No worries I take offence at people making spurious comparisons between covid vaccination (however badly mishandled) and the deliberate slaughter of millions of people by a genocidal regime. It's folly, and contributes nothing.
To then extend that to accusing people who aren't anti-covax of wanting that outcome and wanting people to be treated badly is stupid and paranoid.
I'm not accusing you of either of those things.
and thanks for your well written reply. I understand your sentiment regarding many of your points.I have 1 full on it’s a conspiracy 5g bill gates nutter on Facebook. Someone I went to school with.
Mostly people I know are very positive about the vaccine. I would take it no worries.
My current feeling is that, assuming it continues to mutate beyond the original scope of the vaccine, as the virus becomes endemic the idea of vaccinating the younger populations is going to lose support quickly, it’s not practical or cost effective.
Mostly people I know are very positive about the vaccine. I would take it no worries.
My current feeling is that, assuming it continues to mutate beyond the original scope of the vaccine, as the virus becomes endemic the idea of vaccinating the younger populations is going to lose support quickly, it’s not practical or cost effective.
Driller said:
Dentist here for what it’s worth.
I won’t be having the vaccine unless absolutely forced to, for eg being allowed to travel internationally. Even then I wouldn’t be bloody happy about it.
Reason? I find it very strange that a vaccine should be pushed so hard for something that effects such a tiny amount of people. I don’t know why they’re doing it, it doesn’t make sense and that makes me uneasy enough to want to avoid it.
If 1% of people are vulnerable then vaccinate them and confine them but let the rest of us catch it, get immune and get on with it including our kids.
Appart from that I’m neither old nor sick so there’s no point.
I'm doing it and so is my wife, largely so you can get back to your practise properly. I won’t be having the vaccine unless absolutely forced to, for eg being allowed to travel internationally. Even then I wouldn’t be bloody happy about it.
Reason? I find it very strange that a vaccine should be pushed so hard for something that effects such a tiny amount of people. I don’t know why they’re doing it, it doesn’t make sense and that makes me uneasy enough to want to avoid it.
If 1% of people are vulnerable then vaccinate them and confine them but let the rest of us catch it, get immune and get on with it including our kids.
Appart from that I’m neither old nor sick so there’s no point.
Edited by Driller on Sunday 28th February 13:05
No need to thank us, I'll take it as read.
ben5575 said:
The vaccine is new and has not been tested for as long as any other previous vaccine.
This line is trotted out a lot but my understanding is that it's pure drivel. Sure, this vaccine has been made in record time, but although a normal vaccine might take 10 years to develop, they are still only monitoring the effects on people for a few months. So if you are part of the vaccine trial, and die a year later, the vaccine makers won't know about it anyway. Because vaccines never throw up long term issues, just short term issues, and that's all they are looking for. Vaccines take years to develop because you have to recruit and pay 50K people for trials, which takes time and money. In this case, you have hundreds of thousands of people volunteering to be part of the trial, which is cost free. In addition, every single person at Pfizer or wherever is working on this and nothing else. They can afford that because the take up of the vaccine is basically the whole world. Whereas most vaccines target a small group, like people travelling to a certain country needing yellow fever.
People who think it's not safe because it's been done in record time really shouldn't buy a mass produced car that is made from scratch by 500 workers on a production line in 4 hours, but should be buying a Morgan built buy half a dozen people over 3 weeks or whatever. Because obviously, a car built so quickly can't be safe!!
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