30 somethings - are you going to vax?
Discussion
InitialDave said:
Elatino1 said:
I think you're missing my point. No deaths = no risk. Why Vaccinate againat something that is not an issue.
Why do we vaccinate against mumps?Deaths in the UK average less than 1 a year, 2015 and 2016 had zero deaths.
Should we have stopped vaccinating for mumps from 2017 onwards?
Per the logic in opposing the covid vaccines, should we have stopped vaccinating for mumps?
Prof Prolapse said:
This the point some people don't seem to grasp. The calculation is done, for your age group, it is still worth doing.
Whether or not the youngest children will be vaccinated only time will tell.
And the point some people don't seem to grasp is irrespective of relative risk reduction, absolute risk matters - a lot especially wrt to wanting to effectively force everyone regardless of age to jab up. Whether or not the youngest children will be vaccinated only time will tell.
That absolute risk of covid for someone age 30 is very very low and whether or not the risk of the vaccine is much lower is irrelevant. We aren't looking to live in a minimal risk world in which we attempt to minimise every possible risk in every situation after all.
It almost certainly is a better idea than not for someone that age to still take the vaccine (at younger than 25 it starts being rather less clear with the myocarditis cases being linked) but the messaging around everyone simply having to vax up or be branded as a societal outcast is unnecessary first of all and unpleasantly coercive.
I’m in my 30s and had my 1st jab (Moderna) yesterday.
I know people my age who were otherwise fit and healthy who’ve had Covid and it’s messed their heart and/or lungs up for nearly a year now. No thanks!
djc206 said:
Effectively zero risk of dying from the vaccine at any age if you want to play that game.
I don’t agree with you, you seem to think the risk posed by the vaccine is higher than the illness, I’m not seeing that borne out in the stats, you also seem to have this myopic focus on death completely ignoring all the other effects of the illness.
Reduction in transmission, reduction in serious illness including hospitalisation. Not to mention that Covid is a proper prick of an illness.
Agreed with this, it’s convenient to focus on deaths as the only negative outcome of getting Covid. Politicians, newspapers and TV do the same as I guess deaths are easier to measure and present than other outcomes. I don’t agree with you, you seem to think the risk posed by the vaccine is higher than the illness, I’m not seeing that borne out in the stats, you also seem to have this myopic focus on death completely ignoring all the other effects of the illness.
Reduction in transmission, reduction in serious illness including hospitalisation. Not to mention that Covid is a proper prick of an illness.
I know people my age who were otherwise fit and healthy who’ve had Covid and it’s messed their heart and/or lungs up for nearly a year now. No thanks!
isaldiri said:
And the point some people don't seem to grasp is irrespective of relative risk reduction, absolute risk matters - a lot especially wrt to wanting to effectively force everyone regardless of age to jab up.
That absolute risk of covid for someone age 30 is very very low and whether or not the risk of the vaccine is much lower is irrelevant. We aren't looking to live in a minimal risk world in which we attempt to minimise every possible risk in every situation after all.
It almost certainly is a better idea than not for someone that age to still take the vaccine (at younger than 25 it starts being rather less clear with the myocarditis cases being linked) but the messaging around everyone simply having to vax up or be branded as a societal outcast is unnecessary first of all and unpleasantly coercive.
Welcome back isaldiri.That absolute risk of covid for someone age 30 is very very low and whether or not the risk of the vaccine is much lower is irrelevant. We aren't looking to live in a minimal risk world in which we attempt to minimise every possible risk in every situation after all.
It almost certainly is a better idea than not for someone that age to still take the vaccine (at younger than 25 it starts being rather less clear with the myocarditis cases being linked) but the messaging around everyone simply having to vax up or be branded as a societal outcast is unnecessary first of all and unpleasantly coercive.
The absolute risk isn't fully known though is it? You're just focusing on death figures when we've got plenty of patients with long term sequalae and huge resources burned due to hospitalisations, and avoidable economic losses.
A real uncalculated concern is "long covid" complications across age groups, in young people especially it's devastating and hugely expensive in terms of resources, both human and financially.
But we do know, absolutely, that you're perfectly happy to play down the risks of COVID, but and willing to disproportionately inflate the vaccine risk.
This isn't a chemotherapy cytotoxic compound of anything with horrific side effects, it's just a vaccine given to billions of sick and enfeebled with minimal side effects.
I've said this before, but like many I voluntarily take a vaccine for Influenza each year, I don't believe I'll die of that either. It's just a vaccine, I'm more likely to die in the car on the way to receive it, and it prevents me getting sick which benefits me (I actually don't want the time off work). It's just not a big deal to get a vaccine, or at least it shouldn't be.
As for this sense of feeling oppressed, I can't help you with that, I think there's probably good reasons to feel that way at the moment, but I also think that's heavily biasing your viewpoint and robbing you of you reason.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 3rd June 13:01
Prof Prolapse said:
The absolute risk isn't fully known though is it? You're just focusing on death figures when we've got plenty of patients with long term sequalae and huge resources burned due to hospitalisations, and avoidable economic losses.
A real uncalculated concern is "long covid" complications across age groups, in young people especially it's devastating and hugely expensive in terms of resources, both human and financially.
Well the most recent study seems to have put 'long covid' complications (from recorded actual medical complications post serious infection) at a bit higher than flu or similar respiratory disease that has required hospitalisation. Not exactly multiple times higher and not just from self reported long covid symptoms whereby in one of the news articles about 'long covid' it noted over 2/3rds of those people didn't even have covid antibodies. A real uncalculated concern is "long covid" complications across age groups, in young people especially it's devastating and hugely expensive in terms of resources, both human and financially.
So yes covid complications are a possible thing but you are somewhat disproportionately inflating that risk. Which is a little ironic in view of the later part of your post.
Prof Prolapse said:
But we do know, absolutely, that you're perfectly happy to play down the risks of COVID, but and willing to disproportionately inflate the vaccine risk.
Please quote me anything I might have posted where I have disproportionately inflated vaccine risk if you're going to accuse me of that. I don't personally think I have ever done so. And just because I have consistently stated I think the coercion of everyone to vax up irrespective of risk is extremely distasteful, it doesn't mean I'm in any way against people taking it out of their own informed choice despite lots of people on various threads having branded me as an anti-vaxxer. It is perfectly sensible to do so especially if over 40. I just flatly disagree people should be compelled to do so for all manner of reasons.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 3rd June 14:08
Ashfordian said:
The government obviously don't trust that the vaccine works based on the travel list amendments they are taking today 
Actions speak louder than words and all that
Wasnt planning a foreign holiday this year anyway. You had to be pretty thick to risk booking for anywhere so quickly or accept the risk that it could go amber at any point. Actions speak louder than words and all that
sherman said:
Wasnt planning a foreign holiday this year anyway. You had to be pretty thick to risk booking for anywhere so quickly or accept the risk that it could go amber at any point.
Thick, or one of the millions of UK residents with family abroad, or someone who's prospect of a break in the sun was the only thing stopping him from jumping in front of a train these last few months.breakfan said:
Thick, or one of the millions of UK residents with family abroad, or someone who's prospect of a break in the sun was the only thing stopping him from jumping in front of a train these last few months.
Wonder what people did to keep themselves from jumping in front of trains before cheap foreign holidays?breakfan said:
sherman said:
Wasnt planning a foreign holiday this year anyway. You had to be pretty thick to risk booking for anywhere so quickly or accept the risk that it could go amber at any point.
Thick, or one of the millions of UK residents with family abroad, or someone who's prospect of a break in the sun was the only thing stopping him from jumping in front of a train these last few months.If you cant survive without a holiday abroad for 1 more year but you are allowed to travel and holiday anywhere you want in your own country then I think you need proffesional help.
Prof Prolapse said:
superlightr said:
The main thrust of my view is that age changes the risk profile for both the vaccine and covid.
I agree the overall risk of not dying of covid is very high for everyone - With age the risk increases of dying of covid. I think it was 1/5 chance of dying with covid if you are over 80 - so the risk is high but it decreases with age.
A child of 1 year old is zero risk
A child of 16 is also "effectivly " zero risk
These young age groups who are not already seriously ill have no risk of dying from covid.
similary 16-20 risk is zero
the 30-40 is also effectivly zero.
I would like to see the vaccine death rates compared to say under 40's -
Thus what may be sensible for a 60+ person is dubious for a 20 year old person.
I'm not convinced by your figures there, but more importantly, I don't think you understand, this analysis has taken place already, it has since the vaccination programme started, and it's demonstrated by the preference of certain vaccines in different age groups. I agree the overall risk of not dying of covid is very high for everyone - With age the risk increases of dying of covid. I think it was 1/5 chance of dying with covid if you are over 80 - so the risk is high but it decreases with age.
A child of 1 year old is zero risk
A child of 16 is also "effectivly " zero risk
These young age groups who are not already seriously ill have no risk of dying from covid.
similary 16-20 risk is zero
the 30-40 is also effectivly zero.
I would like to see the vaccine death rates compared to say under 40's -
Thus what may be sensible for a 60+ person is dubious for a 20 year old person.
The safety data as a whole is analysed across age groups, and compared to the risk from the disease.
This the point some people don't seem to grasp. The calculation is done, for your age group, it is still worth doing.
Whether or not the youngest children will be vaccinated only time will tell.
Hopefully some people will read this thread and it will encourage them to get the vaccine if they're on the fence.
otolith said:
Wonder what people did to keep themselves from jumping in front of trains before cheap foreign holidays?
My comment was tongue in cheek but I think you are underestimating the impact of all this on people’s mental health. Nothing unusual about that, which is why this country is facing a mental health crisis.What disturbed me most about today’s travel announcements was not Portugal, it was that no new countries were added to the green list. Look at the Malta stats. It makes you wonder what insane benchmarks the UK is setting.
Going off topic now, apologies
popeyewhite said:
shalmaneser said:
Seriously kudos to you for continuing to engage with these bad-faith posters. I don't know how you have the energy.
Indeed 
Patience of a saint!
Hey Poppywhite nice to see you back - were the questions a bit tricky for you?
how about just one - whats the winning point for you that we should go back to normal? is it 1 death 100deaths 0 cases 100 cases a day 100% vaccine - give a clue as to when you think its safe to go back to Normal? Should babies get the Jab at birth? anyone?
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 3rd June 18:37
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 3rd June 18:38
superlightr said:
popeyewhite said:
shalmaneser said:
Seriously kudos to you for continuing to engage with these bad-faith posters. I don't know how you have the energy.
Indeed Patience of a saint!
Hey Poppywhite nice to see you back - were the questions a bit tricky for you?
how about just one - whats the winning point for you that we should go back to normal? is it 1 death 100deaths 0 cases 100 cases a day 100% vaccine - give a clue as to when you think its safe to go back to Normal? Should babies get the Jab at birth? anyone?
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 3rd June 18:37
Edited by superlightr on Thursday 3rd June 18:38
isaldiri said:
Prof Prolapse said:
The absolute risk isn't fully known though is it? You're just focusing on death figures when we've got plenty of patients with long term sequalae and huge resources burned due to hospitalisations, and avoidable economic losses.
A real uncalculated concern is "long covid" complications across age groups, in young people especially it's devastating and hugely expensive in terms of resources, both human and financially.
Well the most recent study seems to have put 'long covid' complications (from recorded actual medical complications post serious infection) at a bit higher than flu or similar respiratory disease that has required hospitalisation. Not exactly multiple times higher and not just from self reported long covid symptoms whereby in one of the news articles about 'long covid' it noted over 2/3rds of those people didn't even have covid antibodies. A real uncalculated concern is "long covid" complications across age groups, in young people especially it's devastating and hugely expensive in terms of resources, both human and financially.
So yes covid complications are a possible thing but you are somewhat disproportionately inflating that risk. Which is a little ironic in view of the later part of your post.
You really can't be playing down the long term impact here, there's lots of anecodatal evidence and papers published about the after effects of COVID-19 infection
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/doctors-wi...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34033370/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33680620/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33144403/
It really is another very good reason to get the vaccine even if you're younger.
isaldiri said:
Prof Prolapse said:
But we do know, absolutely, that you're perfectly happy to play down the risks of COVID, but and willing to disproportionately inflate the vaccine risk.
Please quote me anything I might have posted where I have disproportionately inflated vaccine risk if you're going to accuse me of that. I don't personally think I have ever done so. And just because I have consistently stated I think the coercion of everyone to vax up irrespective of risk is extremely distasteful, it doesn't mean I'm in any way against people taking it out of their own informed choice despite lots of people on various threads having branded me as an anti-vaxxer. It is perfectly sensible to do so especially if over 40. I just flatly disagree people should be compelled to do so for all manner of reasons.
You talk about "making an informed choice" as if this decision to take a vaccine, requires careful consideration, but it simply doesn't. This isn't undergoing life changing surgery, or taking some unknown drug, it's been tested on billions of people. The most dangerous thing about getting the vaccine is the drive to get there.
You think under 40s should have less pressure to be vaccinated? Based on what data exactly? Because as I keep saying my understanding is that the decision to vaccinate this group is based on the current safety data and risk/benefit. What do you know that overrides this?
I am absolutely, genuinely, open to it not being necessary, but burden of proof now falls on people making that claim to demonstrate it, and personally I've yet to see it.
Prof Prolapse said:
Everything you have posted has disproportionately inflated vaccine risk. In that the risk of harm from the vaccine is almost zero, whereas the risk of disease is demonstrably significantly higher, with large unknowns (see above).
You talk about "making an informed choice" as if this decision to take a vaccine, requires careful consideration, but it simply doesn't. This isn't undergoing life changing surgery, or taking some unknown drug, it's been tested on billions of people. The most dangerous thing about getting the vaccine is the drive to get there.
You think under 40s should have less pressure to be vaccinated? Based on what data exactly? Because as I keep saying my understanding is that the decision to vaccinate this group is based on the current safety data and risk/benefit. What do you know that overrides this?
I am absolutely, genuinely, open to it not being necessary, but burden of proof now falls on people making that claim to demonstrate it, and personally I've yet to see it.
Well I remain mystified why you believe I have 'disproportionately inflated vaccine risk' just because I don't support compelling everyone, their kids and maybe their cat to jab up even if it's for their own good. I have in various posts fully agreed for most people (unknown for age group 20 or younger with latest info) it's (likely much) more sensible to be taking the thing as the risk of infection is higher. However, we are also allowed to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthy food, do high risk sports etc and all manner of things where the risks are much higher than the medical community might deem as sensible after all. I merely (strongly) disagree in compulsion given the marginal benefit in absolute risk reduction to others that might in some cases justify that kind of thing.You talk about "making an informed choice" as if this decision to take a vaccine, requires careful consideration, but it simply doesn't. This isn't undergoing life changing surgery, or taking some unknown drug, it's been tested on billions of people. The most dangerous thing about getting the vaccine is the drive to get there.
You think under 40s should have less pressure to be vaccinated? Based on what data exactly? Because as I keep saying my understanding is that the decision to vaccinate this group is based on the current safety data and risk/benefit. What do you know that overrides this?
I am absolutely, genuinely, open to it not being necessary, but burden of proof now falls on people making that claim to demonstrate it, and personally I've yet to see it.
And it boils down to how you are prepared to live with the damned virus. The end point to what you are suggesting is forever testing for variants, regular (possibly required) annual jabs and all that to attempt to keep infections low..... forever. Which ends up not too dissimilar from attempted eradication.
That is quite frankly madness to me as with the vaccines and most over 40 nevermind 50 having taken the vaccines, the impact of disease especially on healthcare is now broadly similar to other 'normal' respiratory diseases and we can live with it without the constant agonising about variants/infections etc. Just as we did for flu etc in 2019 whereby no one was being compelled/coerced into taking the flu jab. You said you were perfectly happy to do so every year - good for you. I just don't believe everyone should be de facto forced to do the same.
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