How long till the £20k Evora?

[Ryvita]

BertBert said:

Coming back to this, I don't really understand. That's the essence of capitalism and trading since time began. Buy something, then sell it at a higher price (or barter for goods of a higher value). All car dealers buy stock and sell it for a higher price. That's quite useful for people who want to sell to or buy from dealers!
Bert

I completely see your point, to the degree that I'm not sure that I can necessarily articulate my counter-argument, but I'll have a go. Essentially, I know you're right but I wish you weren't?

These are rare assets rather than commodities. We've seen what happens with values when they are traded as if they were commodities, witness the price of air-cooled 911's. My criticism of "flipping" is where I see something that looks like someone buying a car with no intention of driving it, just to polish it, take pretty photos of it and re-advertise it at a ££££ higher price. In that, I suppose I'm talking about private sellers rather than garages, where I understand there are business margins and warranty costs to be met in a resale, though that said there are still offenders here - I am looking at you Hexagon Classics and 4 Star Classics.

I particularly draw attention to it where I see it happen through my records process and I know that other potential buyers would not have that information. In doing so I guess I am acting selfishly as a future buyer to suppress potential price rises? But then I can't in any way stop anyone doing anything, all I can do is level the playing field with better information. I want to see these cars be sold and bought by enthusiasts, to enthusiasts, so that I know that any car that I might have wanted to buy but couldn't is in good hands, and will be out there being enjoyed on the road not stuck under a studio light getting another posed photo taken.

When I get around to crunching the numbers on the data I've collected, I hope to be able to provide a break down that shows the cost differential between a private and garage sale. Once we have that difference, we can start to make informed decisions about whether the mark-up made by a garage on an acquisition and re-sale is valid, or profiteering?

[saaby93]

arronlaw said:

Ryvita said:

paul n said:

I thought the red one at stones dealer was a better bargin at £23k with the clutch done and less miles than the grey 20k one!? Amazed that is still there? the burnt orange one is nice but i think a little steep on price as a private sale? The black 2012 one in cheltenham seems the best bargin at £26500 with only 32k on the clock, amazed that has not gone yet! think they look amazing in black also!

This car (AU10BHN) was advertised by a private seller in February this year for £21,000. It was seeming bought by Stones, polished and flipped. First advertised in late May, it went up for £26,492 which I highlighted at the time as being somewhat cheeky. The price has been steadily dropping - £25,492 in mid June, £24,495 in late June, then to the current price of £23,000 in early August.

The car has now been on sale at Stones for over 80 days. I am averse to the idea of people flipping these rare cars - there is a discussion above about the 33K dealership car which was previously on private sale at 27.5k - but I appreciate that dealers need to make margin and cover warranty costs so with the Stones car now down to 2k more than the private sale it does look more appealing. They will not be making money on it at this point.

I notice this car is also listed as having a Full Service History in the current advert but when a previous poster on another thread viewed the car in 2017, they noted that 'a couple of services had been missed' amongst a few other points. Perhaps just something for any potential buyers to be aware of and double check.

Wouldnt worry about it.
If the car is only doing say 1000 -3000 miles a year they need a check over which could be done by the owner at MOT time. Why fill up the service book with annual stamps if its better done by mileage......

[CABC]

Ryvita said:

I completely see your point, to the degree that I'm not sure that I can necessarily articulate my counter-argument, but I'll have a go. Essentially, I know you're right but I wish you weren't?

These are rare assets rather than commodities. We've seen what happens with values when they are traded as if they were commodities, witness the price of air-cooled 911's. My criticism of "flipping" is where I see something that looks like someone buying a car with no intention of driving it, just to polish it, take pretty photos of it and re-advertise it at a ££££ higher price. In that, I suppose I'm talking about private sellers rather than garages, where I understand there are business margins and warranty costs to be met in a resale, though that said there are still offenders here - I am looking at you Hexagon Classics and 4 Star Classics.

I particularly draw attention to it where I see it happen through my records process and I know that other potential buyers would not have that information. In doing so I guess I am acting selfishly as a future buyer to suppress potential price rises? But then I can't in any way stop anyone doing anything, all I can do is level the playing field with better information. I want to see these cars be sold and bought by enthusiasts, to enthusiasts, so that I know that any car that I might have wanted to buy but couldn't is in good hands, and will be out there being enjoyed on the road not stuck under a studio light getting another posed photo taken.

When I get around to crunching the numbers on the data I've collected, I hope to be able to provide a break down that shows the cost differential between a private and garage sale. Once we have that difference, we can start to make informed decisions about whether the mark-up made by a garage on an acquisition and re-sale is valid, or profiteering?

it's the market functioning.
Lotus are illiquid, they take more time to sell.
Porsche are more liquid, however that market works on very strict unwritten rules of OPC history, necessary options etc. that's another kind of somewhat irrational 'unfairness', but that's the cost of buying/selling Porsche.

[plenty]

BertBert said:

Ryvita said:

I am averse to the idea of people flipping these rare cars.

Coming back to this, I don't really understand. That's the essence of capitalism and trading since time began. Buy something, then sell it at a higher price (or barter for goods of a higher value). All car dealers buy stock and sell it for a higher price. That's quite useful for people who want to sell to or buy from dealers!
Bert

And it's incredibly unhelpful for people who don't want to sell to or buy from dealers. I've lost out before on cars that were snapped up and flipped for an immediate profit.

Dealers have a right to earn a living but there should be some value added in the process. I have total respect for dealers who are able to source rare, high quality examples or who put effort into prep. I have none for those whose only skill appears to be an ability to pounce quicker than other people.

[BertBert]

All good points and well made. But as for dealers adding value, they do, by definition. They provide (by rule of law) greater protection for purchasers than private sellers. They might add other value too (depending on the dealer and what a buyer perceives as value). I don't really understand the idea of them going round "snapping up" cars as if that's underhand in some way. They view/inspect and have liquidity so can buy or not as they determine. There's nothing about that that a private buyer can't do.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic, I'll get back to the business in hand.

Bert

[BertBert]

Right, back on topic, this one is quite close to me...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202002187...
Thought I might go and see it.
Bert

[plenty]

BertBert said:

I don't really understand the idea of them going round "snapping up" cars as if that's underhand in some way. They view/inspect and have liquidity so can buy or not as they determine. There's nothing about that that a private buyer can't do.
Bert

There are some dealers whose main skill appears to be keeping tabs on new listings and acting fast when a well-priced car comes to market with little to no effort made on prep.

A number of times over the years I have enquired about cars within hours of the adverts going live, to be told that the car was sold and then to see the car re-advertised days later with a markup. I can think of a Subaru dealer that was notorious for this. In fact it was rumoured that that dealership was a front for a dodgier business. Their cars were known for remaining in stock for ages with unrealistic prices. Really frustrating seeing a car that I missed out on buying being advertised for months at +25% with zero additional prep.

Of course dealers can legally do what they want, but unless you spend all of your time on the classifieds this reduces the pool of cars available to private buyers and therefore hurts not helps the market. Dealers already have access to inventories and auctions unavailable to regular punters.

Anyhow as you say - enough of the thread hijack!

[hyphen]

BertBert said:

Right, back on topic, this one is quite close to me...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202002187...
Thought I might go and see it.
Bert

Are you sure you want plain black. Wouldn't you be happier with a more 'unique' looking one

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10517597

I wonder if its Vinyl and comes off.

[rhdv8]

Does that one have some damage to the lower corner of the front wheel arch/ bumper?

hyphen said:

Are you sure you want plain black. Wouldn't you be happier with a more 'unique' looking one

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/10517597

I wonder if its Vinyl and comes off.

[TdM-GTV]

BertBert said:

Right, back on topic, this one is quite close to me...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202002187...
Thought I might go and see it.
Bert

Looks alright, it's been on sale for a while and it's service is due so take that into account. It may have been sat around for a while so check air con is working brakes are good etc. I don't think that the garage knows much about them so would probably rather knock money off and get the service done yourself at a specialist.

[Moospeed]

TdM-GTV said:

BertBert said:

Right, back on topic, this one is quite close to me...
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202002187...
Thought I might go and see it.
Bert

Looks alright, it's been on sale for a while and it's service is due so take that into account. It may have been sat around for a while so check air con is working brakes are good etc. I don't think that the garage knows much about them so would probably rather knock money off and get the service done yourself at a specialist.

If it helps I enquired about this a few weeks ago. They were going to get it serviced prior to sale, or I assume as part of the sale.

It has B&C service throughout it's life if I remember correctly. Would be a shame to have a stamp in the book from some random garage when Bell and Colville are literally just up the road I thought...

[Ryvita]

Moospeed said:

If it helps I enquired about this a few weeks ago. They were going to get it serviced prior to sale, or I assume as part of the sale.

It has B&C service throughout it's life if I remember correctly. Would be a shame to have a stamp in the book from some random garage when Bell and Colville are literally just up the road I thought...

From my records - Been on sale since the 18th February. Initially advertised at £26,995. Price dropped to £26,650 on 13th August.

It looks like it's a reasonable proposition, and being a one owner, B&C serviced car, should be all good (Though there's no mention of the clutch having been done... If someone was serious, would probably be worth calling Phil at B&C and asking for any info / background check on the car.)

[BertBert]

Yes, the one owner plus B&C service history is appealing.
I ran out of inclination to arrange to see it on Saturday, so will try again this week.
Bert

[Ryvita]

Update:

Sales - None

New Ads - None

Price Drops
- AU60DXM, Solar Yellow private sale on for two weeks now, from £28,500 to £28,000
- RX110YY, Black private sale on for a month, from £29,990 to £29,000

[Ryvita]

Update:

New Ad:
- https://www.lotusforsale.com/ads/white-lotus-evora... - White car, 35.9K miles, £27,750, 2+0. Something a bit different! Some visual and mechanical upgrades that will likely split opinion. I think bits of it are quite nice, but I'd need to see those black & white custom seats in person to decide if it was too much.

[rhdv8]

There’s a new red S popped up on EBay too at a very cheap (for an S) £25,000.

[paul n]

I saw this one, looks like a good spec but put off by a few of the visual mods!

Just looking at colours came across a beautiful Canyon Red version looking at the long term review on the lotus forum, never seen that colour before, wonder how many of them about. not many i imagine!

[Shnozz]

Ryvita said:

Update:

New Ad:
- https://www.lotusforsale.com/ads/white-lotus-evora... - White car, 35.9K miles, £27,750, 2+0. Something a bit different! Some visual and mechanical upgrades that will likely split opinion. I think bits of it are quite nice, but I'd need to see those black & white custom seats in person to decide if it was too much.

I wonder if that’s my old car with some additional modifications. Only thing making me suspect it might not be is I swapped the gearstick for the silver ball exige one and swapping back would be a step backward IMO of course.

[paul n]

rhdv8 said:

There’s a new red S popped up on EBay too at a very cheap (for an S) £25,000.

I think that is the starting price of the auction!

Cheers Paul

[rhdv8]

paul n said:

rhdv8 said:

There’s a new red S popped up on EBay too at a very cheap (for an S) £25,000.

I think that is the starting price of the auction!

Cheers Paul

OH