Evora - first 200 models

Evora - first 200 models

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Twit

Original Poster:

2,908 posts

263 months

Saturday 16th May 2009
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I had a letter from Lotus this morning trying to sell me one of the first 200 Evora's in launch spec with the plaque etc. I thought they had all been sold? Apperently not it seems... Did anyone else get one?

The cost 59,410.00... Looking the spec, with the exception of the reversing camera I would say all the options on it are essentials for the car, so in 2+2 spec I would say that is the base price in reality. Also, if you want metallic paint or anything other than the base wheels then add about 3 grand. 62K... Big ouch!!!

bogie

16,342 posts

271 months

Saturday 16th May 2009
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ah - but did that include the option for body coloured door handles, or is that £59K for black plastic handles from a 10 yr old Mondeo? wink

Boggy

4,603 posts

234 months

Saturday 16th May 2009
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Fantastic!

Why is anyone going to spend 60k in the currant market? They can get a car for half that price, Oh well not my money anyway

Boggy

Twit

Original Poster:

2,908 posts

263 months

Saturday 16th May 2009
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I'm a bit gutted, after being very sceptical the car was growing on me a bit, I still think its all a bit of mess behind the doors but the reviews have been OK.

I have got the full price spec and you simply can't think of buying the car without tec pack - 2,495.00 the premium pack - 2495.00 and the sports pack - 950.00. The car would be unsellable without those. So that is 49k to start, plus 6k for essential options and then another 2-3k for paint and wheels.

I think the base 49k would have alright (that is only relative to the 59k launch car) if it included all the 'packs', still not good value but better. I'm not actually sure it is possible to have a car at 49k, I think you have to have options as things like the leather interior (which is 'standard') are actually part of the premium pack, from what I can see.

Whether its a good car, brilliant car or rubbish car, 60k is too much - way too much! Look what you can get a year old...!?

Maybe thats why the launch 200 cars seem to be available still...

Edited by Twit on Saturday 16th May 21:56

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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Twit said:
Whether its a good car, brilliant car or rubbish car, 60k is too much - way too much! Look what you can get a year old...!?
been having this discussion in general Lotus forum, seems a mix of views...

Personally, I would suggest £60K rules it out of most buyer's list, that's 911 money (£61,744 list and at current discount rates, more like £50-55K with some options).

Problem for the Evora (ignoring the current economic issues) is that whist it may well be a great handling, well put together car, it does not have the headline killer feature to place it above it's competition, the £50-80K sector is awash with some very good cars (Audi R8 is £68,521.74 list and there are some huge discounts on them at the moment).

bencollins

3,486 posts

204 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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Twit said:
after being very sceptical the car was growing on me a bit,
+1
I joined this forum 2 years ago to moan about the new esprit/evora and complain they werent updating the Elise enough. I have tried to like the Evora, and by and large I now do (ish), it is characterful and unique in a world of dreary tin cans. Though I will never accept that it weighs 1.4t, considering it has such an expensive and fancy chassis. The reviews are positive, but would prefer to see what the yanks and euros think of it as UK press is inevitably biased.

My biggest moan with the Evora is everywhere you look from an eng point of view IMO there are expensive production solutions, in particular with so many parts. Cars need to be cheap to build so that a profit margin can be found, something historically British makers have consistently failed to find. The Evora looks "build high sell high", rather than "build cheap sell high" which a low volume mnanufacturer needs.

By way of reference look at this http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1040258.htm That car still looks incredible and production wise was pretty cheap to build (post war issues) made with mostly generic parts. That maybe comparing apples and oranges but brits are capable of great (and simple) design which includes the original elise chassis. I was expecting the next gen ally chassis to be a step on in cost reduction and simplicity, but IMO it has got too complex and we have yet to crack the best way of building with aluminium in low volume.

Whether it will sell is another question I certainly cant answer, but you have to be worried as a "marque fan". Reckon that car manufacturing has split between washing machines and "peripheral stuff" like Lotus. Cars are now incredibly cheap to build and buy, considering their scary complexity. Perhaps fringe manufacturers need to reconsider again production and return to "build to order" cars made from generic parts so there is very little economic risk and production can be upsized/downsized with lower economic risk. Easier said than done though! Maybe this new chassis technique is exactly that, i want to believe it is, but after seeing the chassis pictures I have my doubts.

Overall i am moved to say it is easy for us to snipe from the sidelines and the Evora is a pretty decent effort and probably a brilliant and rare car to own, 30mpg and has "specialness".

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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I wouldn't say all the options are essential really - it seems to have a fair bit of kit as standard - I'd be quite happy with just forged alloys, rear seats, sports pack and metallic. I like the close ratio gear-box option. ( - They should have done that as an option on the 111R as they could supply but didn't market it.)

Tech pack is just a stereo system upgrade/bluetooth/cruise control and tyre pressure monitor and the Premium pack is just lots of leather (Recaros in a lessor leather are standard). Porsche charge more for similar options.

Re commments on discounts, Lotus/dealers may also discount - from a pricing perspective Lotus undercharged for the Elise given the long waiting lists initially.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 17th May 10:57

S Works

10,166 posts

249 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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It's growing on me, and I do think it's a good car. It is just too expensive. Ben - you make some very sensible points there, but I don't think Lotus have the resources to make a truly *great* car to compete in that price zone by borrowing from any other manufacturers parts bin, other than for small components.

The VVA was supposed to be the new platform for doing lots of "stuff", but Lotus being Lotus it was always going to be somewhat over-engineered to be so special. The Elise platform has, IMO, always probably been too labour intensive and expensive to build, and the price point of the cars reflects that vs. other marques where the vehicles are generally better equipped with *stuff*. FFS, a Golf GTi has better spec than an Elise S and is cheaper... they just can't ever be expected to do volume manufacturing, so are compelled to do really st-hot, but relatively expensive to produce, niche alternatives.

Sadly I don't think the Evora or Esprit will ever be volume sellers. The Elige Series 3 platform however, could very well be with the current trend of folks who appear to be abandoning Porsche etc. in favour of Exiges - I mean, how many posts have we had on here over the past year with chaps who've done that? I've lost count!

Which then supports your argument strongly that they should be trying to develop VVA such that the S3 Elige can be developed as a) a progression from the already superb chassis and b) as an easier to build, cheaper to build, higher-profit margin seller, but not at an inflated price-point so as to put new buyers off.

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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>>The reviews are positive, but would prefer to see what the yanks and euros think of it as UK press is inevitably biased.

Reviews from the US journalists attending the launch was really positive - there are a number already linked on the Lotus website and R&T liked it a lot.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id...

Boggy

4,603 posts

234 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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I think they have missed an opportunity to jump in the market and steal a lot of sales

This Car should be priced at 45k period, it should include the packs

As I've already said not my money anyway, there are very few people looking to spend at the moment and that's why already they are slow on shiffting unit's

Boggy

bogie

16,342 posts

271 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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I like the car - think it will make a great daily driver proper sportscar and a great alternative to whats out there

however I do feel they are going for the Porsche business model - price the base car low, make the profit on the "esential" options - generally £5-10K on the price of the base car ...well it works for the most profitable car company in the world, so who can blame them wink

at least they are not as bad as some German manufacturers where steel wheels and no stereo are on the base cars LOL

Twit

Original Poster:

2,908 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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dom180 said:
I wouldn't say all the options are essential really - it seems to have a fair bit of kit as standard - I'd be quite happy with just forged alloys, rear seats, sports pack and metallic. I like the close ratio gear-box option. ( - They should have done that as an option on the 111R as they could supply but didn't market it.)

Tech pack is just a stereo system upgrade/bluetooth/cruise control and tyre pressure monitor and the Premium pack is just lots of leather (Recaros in a lessor leather are standard). Porsche charge more for similar options.

Re commments on discounts, Lotus/dealers may also discount - from a pricing perspective Lotus undercharged for the Elise given the long waiting lists initially.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 17th May 10:57
I think that understates the options. Without the tech pack you don't get things like a ipod link or more importantly the phone adaption. People who are going to buy this car (if anyone does!) will need the phone options etc, I could'nt not have it in a new car! The premium pack I can see an argument, but everyone will want the door panels to match the seats etc in terms of leather, without that it doesnt!! Also, a base spec car will be worth nothing in 3 years, you will have to spec up if you want to get rid of it at some point.

I do see that Lotus are trying to follow the Porsche model of low base price and make money on options. They won't get away with it, Porsche do because of the heritage of the product; Lotus are miles away on that front! If I did even think about it I would want everything I want at under 50K or I would not even consider it. In reality I won't bother, when the time comes it'll be off to Porsche or Aston... That is a real pity as I love Lotus but they have messed this one up big time with stupid pricing!

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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Twit said:
dom180 said:
I wouldn't say all the options are essential really - it seems to have a fair bit of kit as standard - I'd be quite happy with just forged alloys, rear seats, sports pack and metallic. I like the close ratio gear-box option. ( - They should have done that as an option on the 111R as they could supply but didn't market it.)

Tech pack is just a stereo system upgrade/bluetooth/cruise control and tyre pressure monitor and the Premium pack is just lots of leather (Recaros in a lessor leather are standard). Porsche charge more for similar options.

Re commments on discounts, Lotus/dealers may also discount - from a pricing perspective Lotus undercharged for the Elise given the long waiting lists initially.

Edited by dom180 on Sunday 17th May 10:57
I think that understates the options. Without the tech pack you don't get things like a ipod link or more importantly the phone adaption. People who are going to buy this car (if anyone does!) will need the phone options etc, I could'nt not have it in a new car! The premium pack I can see an argument, but everyone will want the door panels to match the seats etc in terms of leather, without that it doesnt!! Also, a base spec car will be worth nothing in 3 years, you will have to spec up if you want to get rid of it at some point.

I do see that Lotus are trying to follow the Porsche model of low base price and make money on options. They won't get away with it, Porsche do because of the heritage of the product; Lotus are miles away on that front! If I did even think about it I would want everything I want at under 50K or I would not even consider it. In reality I won't bother, when the time comes it'll be off to Porsche or Aston... That is a real pity as I love Lotus but they have messed this one up big time with stupid pricing!
I don't know about heritage - Lotus used to have a fairly successful GP team if I recall - remind me how many F1 constructor championships has Porsche won?

The proof will be in the pudding I'm sure, not in some ipod connector! - If it drives brilliantly and reports so far are pretty encouraging, then I'm sure it will be a success. You might need an ipod connector to enjoy your car, but I certainly don't.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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dom180 said:
I don't know about heritage - Lotus used to have a fairly successful GP team if I recall - remind me how many F1 constructor championships has Porsche won?
and how many Le-Mans titles have Lotus won?
or GT titles?


(Porsche have only ever been in F1 as an engine supplier under the name TAG, won 2 world championships with them in the back of a Mclaren.)

Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 17th May 18:37

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
dom180 said:
I don't know about heritage - Lotus used to have a fairly successful GP team if I recall - remind me how many F1 constructor championships has Porsche won?
and how many Le-Mans titles have Lotus won?
or GT titles?


(Porsche have only ever been in F1 as an engine supplier under the name TAG, won 2 world championships with them in the back of a Mclaren.)

Edited by Scuffers on Sunday 17th May 18:37
I was including 84, 85, 86 in the statistics - without Mclaren their 1991 V12 didn't achieve much did it.

Mostly in Le-Mans, they only raced themselves....

bordseye

1,974 posts

191 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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It would be business suicide for Lotus to compete directly with the big manufacturers like Porsche - they simp[ly dont have the resources to do so. They have to position their products in a different area so as to minimise competition, and this they have done effectively with the Elise and Exige. There simply isnt an alternative good handling , economical light weight enthusiasts sports careven though there are a lot of open 2 seaters like the Z4 , Honda etc.

I reckon they will struggle with the Evora. At a similar price to the base 911 its difficult to see why the mainly middle aged businessman who buys a 911 would go for a Lotus. What extra does it offer over the Porker? And in this form the Evora isnt remotely as raw a track day car as the Exige.

I reckon its the same mistake they made with the Esprit / Eclat etc range. Its very difficult for a downmarket producer to move upmarket - Audi are the only company that I can think of successfully doing this. And even thats arguable. Its the reason why Lexus is Lexus not Toyota, and Infiniti is Infiniti not ........

bogie

16,342 posts

271 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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it doesent need to attract mr average middle class must have a sportscar even if I dont know much about them ...Porsche can have that business wink

Im sure Lotus will be happy if they sell a few thousand units per year ....Porsche sell over 10,000 a month....so they only have to capture a few enthusiastic Lotus fans, that move on from their Exige/Elise to a non Lotus product....

they may well be offering an alternative product to a Porsche, but they dont (and cant) compete on unit sales...

...just as Aston Martin may well do a 997 alternative (price wise) and they would be happy to sell 1/10th of what Porsche do LOL wink

Twit

Original Poster:

2,908 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
quotequote all
dom180 said:
The proof will be in the pudding I'm sure, not in some ipod connector! - If it drives brilliantly and reports so far are pretty encouraging, then I'm sure it will be a success. You might need an ipod connector to enjoy your car, but I certainly don't.
Without getting into a big discussion about this what I need or don't need is irrelevant. The car driving brilliantly alone will not sell this car - all cars at that price need to drive well. Things like phone adaption, interior toys, stereo quality are where this car is going to have to shine at its base price.

Lotus are selling to a completely different market with this car, the elise, exige and europa can get away with a lot because they are cheap and drive well; people put up with all the compromises because of the price and experience. There is a vast different between the 30-40K market and the 60K market; all the toys are important and for the broader market stuff like toys actually sell cars!

dom180

1,180 posts

263 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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Twit said:
dom180 said:
The proof will be in the pudding I'm sure, not in some ipod connector! - If it drives brilliantly and reports so far are pretty encouraging, then I'm sure it will be a success. You might need an ipod connector to enjoy your car, but I certainly don't.
Without getting into a big discussion about this what I need or don't need is irrelevant. The car driving brilliantly alone will not sell this car - all cars at that price need to drive well. Things like phone adaption, interior toys, stereo quality are where this car is going to have to shine at its base price.

Lotus are selling to a completely different market with this car, the elise, exige and europa can get away with a lot because they are cheap and drive well; people put up with all the compromises because of the price and experience. There is a vast different between the 30-40K market and the 60K market; all the toys are important and for the broader market stuff like toys actually sell cars!
It's a different market sure but I'd suggest it's not a homogenious one - there are enthusiasts who buy Porsche who don't spec all the toys and who would buy alternatives if they were available, especially if they drive better than the competition. Lotus only need to appeal to a fraction of Porsche customers in order to be very successful with this car.


Redlake27

2,255 posts

243 months

Sunday 17th May 2009
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The Europa had to be 'readjusted' from a £34K price point to £27K after a year. I feel the same may happen here. I want to love the Evora, and although I'm struggling with the fussy rear quarter styling, I'm sure it will grow on me like all Lotus models do. However, with Lotus core brand value being 'add lightness' I'm worried that they may have difficulty justifying this tag for a car with a worse power to weight ratio than the models below it in the range.