The Official Arsenal - 14 x FA Cup winners thread - Vol 4
Discussion
tigerkoi said:
Allyc85 said:
It’s obviously not just his safety that matters here is it? All it takes is one nut job to be offended by his presence and cause total chaos.
Like can happen anywhere in the world. You can get killed walking your doggy on Hampstead Heath.
You can get your enjoyment of an Ariana Grande concert affected by some loser with a pipe bomb.
You can take the metro in Japan and end up next to some cult member with a vial of Sarin.
Risks are present in life. UEFA can’t guarantee anything. But sufficient pressure has been applied to the Azerbaijanis for them to say ‘we will do our utmost to look after you and make you feel officially welcome’.
If Mhkitarayan still thinks walking his doggy is a challenge on the heath, or he won’t ever go to another Ariane Grande concert or he can’t take the metro in Tokyo...then he might as well be wrapped up in cotton wool.
The stupid opprobrium to UEFA and the official Azerbaijan position needs to be called out for what it is.
Its a game of football at the end of the day, as unlikely as it is why take the risk?
Munka01 said:
Not quite the same though is it, Mhiki is probably the most famous Armenian currently alive so he would be a massive target in Baku (especially for radicals that would see it as big scalp).
Its a game of football at the end of the day, as unlikely as it is why take the risk?
Hey Munka, I think I’ve put a lot of counterpoints already in numerous previous posts about this so for the sake of everyone unless you’re asking me again I’d suggest it’s a topic we’ve all done to the death! Its a game of football at the end of the day, as unlikely as it is why take the risk?
I’m not looking to change anyone’s view of the situation, but if you take the polemic out of it, zoom back from a very simplistic Anglophone press angle, and consider that there’s usually multiple angles to most situations, then most neutrals might believe there’s more to it than that.
Aside from UEFA coefficients throwing up thousands of probability scenarios then just consider the following:
1) The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and the following Baku pogrom nearly thirty years ago was particular nasty. Understood. But UEFA have 55 nations in their umbrella. Have a look at all those nation states, and consider who doesn’t have a problem with someone else...it’s a nightmare. Conservatively you could end up with 75, 80% of countries being ruled out for one reason or other from holding not just a final but any competitive European fixtures for their clubs...UEFA can’t crèche nor legislate for how disjointed the world is at times.
2) Yes, Mhkitaryan is likely Armenia’s most famous sportsman. But I raised the point that other famous Armenian sportsmen have competed in Baku recently, won medals and indeed had their pictures taken with the current President. Not one, or two, but a couple of dozen. So there’s a precedent there that the two nations might be de jure, at war, but they’ve managed to hold sporting events and not have nasty incidents arise. Therefore Mhikitaryan might be being a touch precious...
3) risks are present in life, but a professional footballer for one of the richest clubs in the world is one of the most cosseted and protected individuals on earth. UEFA can seek assurances but no guarantees as that’s impossible to offer. We can offer assurances that Donald Trump can visit the U.K. and the govt do all it can to protect, but nothing is guaranteed.
4) back in 2017, only two venues across the 55 states offered bids to hold the two European finals. Madrid and Baku. Now people are moaning about Baku? This was known for two whole years. Why didn’t other countries offer a bid? It’s a bit precious to moan, now...
5) on the point of 55 states, many with issues of varying levels with one or another. If let’s say international political sentiment lies with the Armenians, then if you block Baku as a venue you have to be fair and say, sorry Yerevan (the Armenian capital), you can never ever hold a final either. Where does that end? The U.K. complaining about Russia so teams don’t play in St Petersburg or Moscow? The Russians asking for a veto in return? De facto, the two nations are sabre rattling at the moment, remember...why should UEFA hold everyone’s hands? This is sport, not war by other means.
6) Arsenal has left Mhkitaryan at home for previous fixtures at Qarabag. Where was this raised then? Arsenal have sat on their hands for a long time on this issue. Now it’s an outrage for Emery, Venkatesham and co...?
7) the UEFA trophies aren’t the preserve of the rich European clubs to push their weight around on. They are competitions for (in the Europa League alone) 160 clubs from 55 nations. The really top European clubs don’t just have their fans in their local countries, they also have support across the world. It’s good that that is shared and made available beyond the traditional strong countries only holding the key events. So when you have a lottery and draw, then situations can and will arise where venues will be in all sorts of places where the stadium criteria is met. You can’t just change it last minute because some rich clubs are moaning (due to their fans complaining about travel...)
8) when you’ve got the likes of Jack Grealish being physically attacked in a Championship game, or numerous players complaining of racist abuse (Aubameyang spat at in a PL encounter?), who are we to turn up our noses as to how unsafe other countries venues are? It’s a little disingenuous. Let’s get our own house in order before sniffing about Baku, and an imaginary situation with an individual player.
Sport shouldn’t be a platform for wrestling with wider political concerns. If anything it should be an environment to help reconciliation. The Azerbaijanis have repeated that Mhikitaryan would be safe, and indeed they would certainly not want to be some pariah state where citizens of other countries felt they could be attacked during a sporting event. Quite the opposite.
If anything, Mhikitaryan is the one, I feel, that’s playing the politics. Yes he’s well known in Armenia. He’s a smart guy, intelligent (law degree, I think) and he’s likely got one eye on his status and future standing in Armenia more than any realistic threat to his person in Baku. It suits his image that he’s seen to be standing up for his people and taking a stance.
Deepest apologies to anyone who feels we’ve had too much debate on the matter. Just responding to a question coming my way. I’m exhausted too
Happy to move the Arsenal chat on
idle hands make the devils work.
it is a real shame the final is in Baku but i look forward to watching it.
i think that BT sport are allowing you to watch it for free in 4k HDR, it will be the first broadcast of such.
Also, the BT Sport app is now sneakily available on apple 4k tv, i think i need to cough up for an add on for it to work via my EE contract.
anyone clued up on how to get a 4k hdr broadcast for wednesday ?
it is a real shame the final is in Baku but i look forward to watching it.
i think that BT sport are allowing you to watch it for free in 4k HDR, it will be the first broadcast of such.
Also, the BT Sport app is now sneakily available on apple 4k tv, i think i need to cough up for an add on for it to work via my EE contract.
anyone clued up on how to get a 4k hdr broadcast for wednesday ?
Carl_Manchester said:
idle hands make the devils work.
it is a real shame the final is in Baku but i look forward to watching it.
i think that BT sport are allowing you to watch it for free in 4k HDR, it will be the first broadcast of such.
Also, the BT Sport app is now sneakily available on apple 4k tv, i think i need to cough up for an add on for it to work via my EE contract.
anyone clued up on how to get a 4k hdr broadcast for wednesday ?
https://www.pocket-lint.com/tv/news/bt/137599-how-to-watch-the-uefa-champions-league-final-for-freeit is a real shame the final is in Baku but i look forward to watching it.
i think that BT sport are allowing you to watch it for free in 4k HDR, it will be the first broadcast of such.
Also, the BT Sport app is now sneakily available on apple 4k tv, i think i need to cough up for an add on for it to work via my EE contract.
anyone clued up on how to get a 4k hdr broadcast for wednesday ?
Not sure beyond that.
What you could try and what I suggest on the F1 threads is that if you have a dish, try and tune in to RTL 4K on Astra East as they’re still a free-to-Air platform for a few sports. Then overlay coverage from 5 Live or something?
I’m lucky that I’ve got literally every platform but when I’m in Spain I use the big dish and RTL for F1 and other stuff. You can’t cast the “enhanced” 4K BT app though.
I don’t know how you’ll get the free BT coverage through the Apple TV. I’ve got one for a spare room and you still need the BT username and password...
tigerkoi said:
If anything, Mhikitaryan is the one, I feel, that’s playing the politics. Yes he’s well known in Armenia. He’s a smart guy, intelligent (law degree, I think) and he’s likely got one eye on his status and future standing in Armenia more than any realistic threat to his person in Baku. It suits his image that he’s seen to be standing up for his people and taking a stance.
I think that’s the crux of ittigerkoi said:
Hey Munka, I think I’ve put a lot of counterpoints already in numerous previous posts about this so for the sake of everyone unless you’re asking me again I’d suggest it’s a topic we’ve all done to the death!
I’m not looking to change anyone’s view of the situation, but if you take the polemic out of it, zoom back from a very simplistic Anglophone press angle, and consider that there’s usually multiple angles to most situations, then most neutrals might believe there’s more to it than that.
Aside from UEFA coefficients throwing up thousands of probability scenarios then just consider the following:
1) The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and the following Baku pogrom nearly thirty years ago was particular nasty. Understood. But UEFA have 55 nations in their umbrella. Have a look at all those nation states, and consider who doesn’t have a problem with someone else...it’s a nightmare. Conservatively you could end up with 75, 80% of countries being ruled out for one reason or other from holding not just a final but any competitive European fixtures for their clubs...UEFA can’t crèche nor legislate for how disjointed the world is at times.
2) Yes, Mhkitaryan is likely Armenia’s most famous sportsman. But I raised the point that other famous Armenian sportsmen have competed in Baku recently, won medals and indeed had their pictures taken with the current President. Not one, or two, but a couple of dozen. So there’s a precedent there that the two nations might be de jure, at war, but they’ve managed to hold sporting events and not have nasty incidents arise. Therefore Mhikitaryan might be being a touch precious...
3) risks are present in life, but a professional footballer for one of the richest clubs in the world is one of the most cosseted and protected individuals on earth. UEFA can seek assurances but no guarantees as that’s impossible to offer. We can offer assurances that Donald Trump can visit the U.K. and the govt do all it can to protect, but nothing is guaranteed.
4) back in 2017, only two venues across the 55 states offered bids to hold the two European finals. Madrid and Baku. Now people are moaning about Baku? This was known for two whole years. Why didn’t other countries offer a bid? It’s a bit precious to moan, now...
5) on the point of 55 states, many with issues of varying levels with one or another. If let’s say international political sentiment lies with the Armenians, then if you block Baku as a venue you have to be fair and say, sorry Yerevan (the Armenian capital), you can never ever hold a final either. Where does that end? The U.K. complaining about Russia so teams don’t play in St Petersburg or Moscow? The Russians asking for a veto in return? De facto, the two nations are sabre rattling at the moment, remember...why should UEFA hold everyone’s hands? This is sport, not war by other means.
6) Arsenal has left Mhkitaryan at home for previous fixtures at Qarabag. Where was this raised then? Arsenal have sat on their hands for a long time on this issue. Now it’s an outrage for Emery, Venkatesham and co...?
7) the UEFA trophies aren’t the preserve of the rich European clubs to push their weight around on. They are competitions for (in the Europa League alone) 160 clubs from 55 nations. The really top European clubs don’t just have their fans in their local countries, they also have support across the world. It’s good that that is shared and made available beyond the traditional strong countries only holding the key events. So when you have a lottery and draw, then situations can and will arise where venues will be in all sorts of places where the stadium criteria is met. You can’t just change it last minute because some rich clubs are moaning (due to their fans complaining about travel...)
8) when you’ve got the likes of Jack Grealish being physically attacked in a Championship game, or numerous players complaining of racist abuse (Aubameyang spat at in a PL encounter?), who are we to turn up our noses as to how unsafe other countries venues are? It’s a little disingenuous. Let’s get our own house in order before sniffing about Baku, and an imaginary situation with an individual player.
Sport shouldn’t be a platform for wrestling with wider political concerns. If anything it should be an environment to help reconciliation. The Azerbaijanis have repeated that Mhikitaryan would be safe, and indeed they would certainly not want to be some pariah state where citizens of other countries felt they could be attacked during a sporting event. Quite the opposite.
If anything, Mhikitaryan is the one, I feel, that’s playing the politics. Yes he’s well known in Armenia. He’s a smart guy, intelligent (law degree, I think) and he’s likely got one eye on his status and future standing in Armenia more than any realistic threat to his person in Baku. It suits his image that he’s seen to be standing up for his people and taking a stance.
Deepest apologies to anyone who feels we’ve had too much debate on the matter. Just responding to a question coming my way. I’m exhausted too
Happy to move the Arsenal chat on
Jesus, someone has a lot of time of their hands.I’m not looking to change anyone’s view of the situation, but if you take the polemic out of it, zoom back from a very simplistic Anglophone press angle, and consider that there’s usually multiple angles to most situations, then most neutrals might believe there’s more to it than that.
Aside from UEFA coefficients throwing up thousands of probability scenarios then just consider the following:
1) The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and the following Baku pogrom nearly thirty years ago was particular nasty. Understood. But UEFA have 55 nations in their umbrella. Have a look at all those nation states, and consider who doesn’t have a problem with someone else...it’s a nightmare. Conservatively you could end up with 75, 80% of countries being ruled out for one reason or other from holding not just a final but any competitive European fixtures for their clubs...UEFA can’t crèche nor legislate for how disjointed the world is at times.
2) Yes, Mhkitaryan is likely Armenia’s most famous sportsman. But I raised the point that other famous Armenian sportsmen have competed in Baku recently, won medals and indeed had their pictures taken with the current President. Not one, or two, but a couple of dozen. So there’s a precedent there that the two nations might be de jure, at war, but they’ve managed to hold sporting events and not have nasty incidents arise. Therefore Mhikitaryan might be being a touch precious...
3) risks are present in life, but a professional footballer for one of the richest clubs in the world is one of the most cosseted and protected individuals on earth. UEFA can seek assurances but no guarantees as that’s impossible to offer. We can offer assurances that Donald Trump can visit the U.K. and the govt do all it can to protect, but nothing is guaranteed.
4) back in 2017, only two venues across the 55 states offered bids to hold the two European finals. Madrid and Baku. Now people are moaning about Baku? This was known for two whole years. Why didn’t other countries offer a bid? It’s a bit precious to moan, now...
5) on the point of 55 states, many with issues of varying levels with one or another. If let’s say international political sentiment lies with the Armenians, then if you block Baku as a venue you have to be fair and say, sorry Yerevan (the Armenian capital), you can never ever hold a final either. Where does that end? The U.K. complaining about Russia so teams don’t play in St Petersburg or Moscow? The Russians asking for a veto in return? De facto, the two nations are sabre rattling at the moment, remember...why should UEFA hold everyone’s hands? This is sport, not war by other means.
6) Arsenal has left Mhkitaryan at home for previous fixtures at Qarabag. Where was this raised then? Arsenal have sat on their hands for a long time on this issue. Now it’s an outrage for Emery, Venkatesham and co...?
7) the UEFA trophies aren’t the preserve of the rich European clubs to push their weight around on. They are competitions for (in the Europa League alone) 160 clubs from 55 nations. The really top European clubs don’t just have their fans in their local countries, they also have support across the world. It’s good that that is shared and made available beyond the traditional strong countries only holding the key events. So when you have a lottery and draw, then situations can and will arise where venues will be in all sorts of places where the stadium criteria is met. You can’t just change it last minute because some rich clubs are moaning (due to their fans complaining about travel...)
8) when you’ve got the likes of Jack Grealish being physically attacked in a Championship game, or numerous players complaining of racist abuse (Aubameyang spat at in a PL encounter?), who are we to turn up our noses as to how unsafe other countries venues are? It’s a little disingenuous. Let’s get our own house in order before sniffing about Baku, and an imaginary situation with an individual player.
Sport shouldn’t be a platform for wrestling with wider political concerns. If anything it should be an environment to help reconciliation. The Azerbaijanis have repeated that Mhikitaryan would be safe, and indeed they would certainly not want to be some pariah state where citizens of other countries felt they could be attacked during a sporting event. Quite the opposite.
If anything, Mhikitaryan is the one, I feel, that’s playing the politics. Yes he’s well known in Armenia. He’s a smart guy, intelligent (law degree, I think) and he’s likely got one eye on his status and future standing in Armenia more than any realistic threat to his person in Baku. It suits his image that he’s seen to be standing up for his people and taking a stance.
Deepest apologies to anyone who feels we’ve had too much debate on the matter. Just responding to a question coming my way. I’m exhausted too
Happy to move the Arsenal chat on
You can speculate all you like about why Mhiki has made this choice, ultimately you are just speculating.
You are also in the minority by blaming Mhiki for this though, almost every view point I have read or listened to on the situation understands his position and are certainly not criticised him for it.
ultimately, he is a footballer and I am sure he is not missing the very rare opportunity to play in a final just to make a political statement.
Riiiight back to the match...
Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Wonderman said:
Riiiight back to the match...
Anyone else going?
Was offered two tickets at a reasonable cost. Then I saw the flight times and more importantly rates of tickets and accommodation and thought better of it. In all fairness, if I'm going somewhere that takes half a day to get to with all the transfers involved (so basically 24 hours traveling) I decided I'd want something more than a Eurpoub trophy to show for it. Anyone else going?
Would be an even longer trip home if we didn't win, especially if there were any blue shirts on the plane.
Wonderman said:
Riiiight back to the match...
Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Where are you flying out of? CDG or a Lufthansa hub? Thought about it a week or so ago, mixing it up with a stay in the Sheraton (for the points), but was overruled Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Not sure where I’ll be later in the week but will have my BT Sport App anyway.
2006 aside, I remember the feeble effort in Copenhagen in 2000. We had a brilliant team. But how on earth Suker and Vieira hit the posts in the shootout I’ll never know. Even Bergkamp pulled his finger out and drove over for that game.
Wonderman said:
Riiiight back to the match...
Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
I price it up, travel, 2 nights accommodation £1400 each Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Wonderman said:
Riiiight back to the match...
Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Safe journey fella.Anyone else going?
Luckily I was already off for half-term and the Mrs was supportive (or glad to get me out the house depending on your view) so doing the day-trip job. Yes it's expensive but given how long our since last trip to a European competition was, if you average it our over the years (man maths) it's not that big a one off cost.
Cheers, appreciated.
Flying direct from Stansted to Baku via Thomas Cook Sport (as per Arsenal website) which includes transfers to stadium and bundle back in after cup lifting (fner), that is assuming I'm not already sulking on the coach, it's a daytrip so no accommodation cost. Yes a bit pricey but I've applied man maths (and the mrs is cool with it as she know what I'm like) so I can deal with it-life is short so fuggit #COYG!!!
Flying direct from Stansted to Baku via Thomas Cook Sport (as per Arsenal website) which includes transfers to stadium and bundle back in after cup lifting (fner), that is assuming I'm not already sulking on the coach, it's a daytrip so no accommodation cost. Yes a bit pricey but I've applied man maths (and the mrs is cool with it as she know what I'm like) so I can deal with it-life is short so fuggit #COYG!!!
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