The Official Scottish Football Thread
Discussion
Scrubs said:
Souness pretty much nailed it post match. If we keep aspiring to mediocrity, then we can’t be surprised at being mediocre.
Is it just me, or has Souness being a bit more outspoken than usual? He's trying to stir nests. How are we aspiring to be mediocre?
The aspirations were that Scotland were going to qualify from that group and being dismissive of teams of the calibre of Croatia.Listening to BBC radio coverage after the game and they were still expressing their disappointment at not getting out of that group.
It's hardly aspirations of being mediocre when so many people were putting our squad ahead of teams that are proven at this level and seeded way above us.
Driver101 said:
Is it just me, or has Souness being a bit more outspoken than usual? He's trying to stir nests.
How are we aspiring to be mediocre?
The aspirations were that Scotland were going to qualify from that group and being dismissive of teams of the calibre of Croatia.Listening to BBC radio coverage after the game and they were still expressing their disappointment at not getting out of that group.
It's hardly aspirations of being mediocre when so many people were putting our squad ahead of teams that are proven at this level and seeded way above us.
Aspiring to be mediocre is hiring Steve Clarke.How are we aspiring to be mediocre?
The aspirations were that Scotland were going to qualify from that group and being dismissive of teams of the calibre of Croatia.Listening to BBC radio coverage after the game and they were still expressing their disappointment at not getting out of that group.
It's hardly aspirations of being mediocre when so many people were putting our squad ahead of teams that are proven at this level and seeded way above us.
Having O’Donnell anywhere near the squad.
Putting another centre half in when a potent attacking threat is ruled out of the Czech game with injury.
Selecting simply the largest team possible against the Czechs and leaving out the most promising young Scots we’ve seen since (and arguably since before) Tierney.
We have a squad full of players who play expansive, attractive, possession football (Rangers, Celtic, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal) so I think the management can believe in the team’s ability to play something other than junior football a bit more.
It’s a learning experience all the same and it’s hugely positive that we’re learning in a tournament instead of watching it. All in all we’ve taken a few steps forward but we can now see what there is to do. (Just like Rangers a couple of years ago - progress not Progres).
simoid said:
Aspiring to be mediocre is hiring Steve Clarke.
Having O’Donnell anywhere near the squad.
Putting another centre half in when a potent attacking threat is ruled out of the Czech game with injury.
Selecting simply the largest team possible against the Czechs and leaving out the most promising young Scots we’ve seen since (and arguably since before) Tierney.
We have a squad full of players who play expansive, attractive, possession football (Rangers, Celtic, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal) so I think the management can believe in the team’s ability to play something other than junior football a bit more.
It’s a learning experience all the same and it’s hugely positive that we’re learning in a tournament instead of watching it. All in all we’ve taken a few steps forward but we can now see what there is to do. (Just like Rangers a couple of years ago - progress not Progres).
For a couple of years Scottish football was praising Clarke to the hilt. He was winning manager of the year when Celtic were winning trebles. International football rarely has the highest calibre of managers. I don't remember much complaints when he was given the Scottish job. Having O’Donnell anywhere near the squad.
Putting another centre half in when a potent attacking threat is ruled out of the Czech game with injury.
Selecting simply the largest team possible against the Czechs and leaving out the most promising young Scots we’ve seen since (and arguably since before) Tierney.
We have a squad full of players who play expansive, attractive, possession football (Rangers, Celtic, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal) so I think the management can believe in the team’s ability to play something other than junior football a bit more.
It’s a learning experience all the same and it’s hugely positive that we’re learning in a tournament instead of watching it. All in all we’ve taken a few steps forward but we can now see what there is to do. (Just like Rangers a couple of years ago - progress not Progres).
What manager is going to take the Scottish job that's going to do any better?
We've regularly had players playing with EPL clubs and not been good enough. There hasn't been strength in depth and there still isn't. I don't rate McTominay as highly as others do. Robertson regularly has weak performances for Scotland, but everyone still expects him and Tierney to be shoehorned in.
There has been the argument for years that the Scottish managers should be picking players who are playing for their clubs and not picking players on reputation or the club they play for. Promising players like Gilmour and Patterson need to be regulars at club level.
We need to improve, but too many people got carried away. There wasn't much between us and the Czech Republic. We were the better team against England. Last night we still had our chances, but were second best. It was very poor defending for the first and second goals. It's individual mistakes rather than bad coaching. It wouldn't be Clarke's tactics standing off Modric allowing him the time and space for that shot. Quality strike, but that should have been closed down.
Adams is concerning me. He looks a decent player, but he's not committed. He's been presented with a few really good chances. A committed player throws himself at the ball, but his attempts have been timid.
We've gone out with just one point. I don't think we've been that bad and with some luck, and cutting out basic mistakes, could have done better. That's football.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 23 June 11:05
Scotland had absolutely no cutting edge. Mustering just 1 goal in three matches is pretty poor. While goal scorers like Christie, Forrest, Turnbull sat on the bench. McGinn seemed pretty useless last night.
Though, to be fair, it was a complete pipe dream that Scotland could beat Croatia.
Though, to be fair, it was a complete pipe dream that Scotland could beat Croatia.
JuniorD said:
Though, to be fair, it was a complete pipe dream that Scotland could beat Croatia.
well when that goal went in to make it 1-1, I can say I believed! But with the unbelievable highs, come the crushing lows. I loved every second of being at hampden last night, a proper match that mattered. plenty of should’ve/ would’ve/ could’ve, but it comes down to- we just weren’t good enough. There are positives though, we have a good squad that have the potential to stick together for a while and some very promising young players coming through.
we now have some time to let the wounds heal, the. prepare for a busy end of the year. denmark away, moldova at home in a saturday night, then austria away all in a week in september. we’re second place in our group and need to keep that up if we want to go to qatar (we can’t qualify for qatar via the euro nations league).
the person I feel sorry for the most is billy gilmour, poor lad gonna be stuck in the hotel for another 8 days on his own, everyone else will have left and he’ll be stuck in his room on his own, what a way to finish your first big tournament
Thought our team selection against the Czechs was what really killed us - not picking Gilmour, having Tierney out. Christie and Armstrong were anonymous. Our midfield against England was excellent. Getting nothing from that game left us with a mountain to climb, and Croatia were eventually able to pick us off. We had a ton of shots and possession, but rarely looked like genuinely scoring.
I quite like his 3 centre backs, and the fluidity it gives us for Tierney and McTominay to drive into midfield leaving Hanley behind to cover, but we really need the centre backs to be coming out and not bypassing the midfield completely. Gilmour really helped here just by making himself available way more than any other midfielders who like to offload the ball and jog forward. I'm not sure what Gilmour's future is - he'll never get a regular game at Chelsea as long as Kante (probably the best in the work in a similar position), and Jorginho (arguably another one of the best in the world there) are at the team.
I think Clarke was trying to bring the youngsters in gradually, such as Patterson who I thought really did well trying to get the ball down and play instead of trying to play a 50 yard diagonal pass.
We are really lacking a cutting edge though - we possibly have to gamble on Nisbet, and hope that given some more experience he delivers for us in the future.
Summary -
Goal - fairly average keepers at this level
Defence - 2 world class left backs, and possibly a decent. although slightly compromised 3 centre back system to accommodate them. Hanley looks more and more solid if unspectacular. O'Donnell gives 100%, but struggles badly against anyone with pace. McTominay seems wasted at centre back, but if it helps us build from the back he might have to stay there. McKenna isn't the answer to anything.
Midfield - McGinn seems to blow hot and cold at this level, but can never be faulted for effort. Gilmour can have the team built around him for years hopefully. Other options (Fraser, Christie, McGregor, Armstrong) just seem too off form at the moment.
Forwards - Dykes had a poor tournament, although pumping up high balls for him to flick on seemed the extent of his service, not good enough at this level. He's relatively young, so hopefully he can find some form. Adams looks like a solid mid-table premiership striker who'll get occasional goals but is a class below the top strikers, still a useful option for us. Nisbet could be a decent player with some experience at this level.
We really need a top class attacker as it makes a huge difference at international level. Wales with Bale, Croatia with Modric, Poland with Lewandowski etc. massively impact results. It's also great to say we should take a hit and not worry about results while we build a young team, but if we lose our rankings then it makes it harder and harder to qualify as we end up in lower tiers - a tough one to manage.
I quite like his 3 centre backs, and the fluidity it gives us for Tierney and McTominay to drive into midfield leaving Hanley behind to cover, but we really need the centre backs to be coming out and not bypassing the midfield completely. Gilmour really helped here just by making himself available way more than any other midfielders who like to offload the ball and jog forward. I'm not sure what Gilmour's future is - he'll never get a regular game at Chelsea as long as Kante (probably the best in the work in a similar position), and Jorginho (arguably another one of the best in the world there) are at the team.
I think Clarke was trying to bring the youngsters in gradually, such as Patterson who I thought really did well trying to get the ball down and play instead of trying to play a 50 yard diagonal pass.
We are really lacking a cutting edge though - we possibly have to gamble on Nisbet, and hope that given some more experience he delivers for us in the future.
Summary -
Goal - fairly average keepers at this level
Defence - 2 world class left backs, and possibly a decent. although slightly compromised 3 centre back system to accommodate them. Hanley looks more and more solid if unspectacular. O'Donnell gives 100%, but struggles badly against anyone with pace. McTominay seems wasted at centre back, but if it helps us build from the back he might have to stay there. McKenna isn't the answer to anything.
Midfield - McGinn seems to blow hot and cold at this level, but can never be faulted for effort. Gilmour can have the team built around him for years hopefully. Other options (Fraser, Christie, McGregor, Armstrong) just seem too off form at the moment.
Forwards - Dykes had a poor tournament, although pumping up high balls for him to flick on seemed the extent of his service, not good enough at this level. He's relatively young, so hopefully he can find some form. Adams looks like a solid mid-table premiership striker who'll get occasional goals but is a class below the top strikers, still a useful option for us. Nisbet could be a decent player with some experience at this level.
We really need a top class attacker as it makes a huge difference at international level. Wales with Bale, Croatia with Modric, Poland with Lewandowski etc. massively impact results. It's also great to say we should take a hit and not worry about results while we build a young team, but if we lose our rankings then it makes it harder and harder to qualify as we end up in lower tiers - a tough one to manage.
Driver101 said:
For a couple of years Scottish football was praising Clarke to the hilt. He was winning manager of the year when Celtic were winning trebles. International football rarely has the highest calibre of managers. I don't remember much complaints when he was given the Scottish job.
What manager is going to take the Scottish job that's going to do any better?
We've regularly had players playing with EPL clubs and not been good enough. There hasn't been strength in depth and there still isn't. I don't rate McTominay as highly as others do. Robertson regularly has weak performances for Scotland, but everyone still expects him and Tierney to be shoehorned in.
There has been the argument for years that the Scottish managers should be picking players who are playing for their clubs and not picking players on reputation or the club they play for. Promising players like Gilmour and Patterson need to be regulars at club level.
We need to improve, but too many people got carried away. There wasn't much between us and the Czech Republic. We were the better team against England. Last night we still had our chances, but were second best. It was very poor defending for the first and second goals. It's individual mistakes rather than bad coaching. It wouldn't be Clarke's tactics standing off Modric allowing him the time and space for that shot. Quality strike, but that should have been closed down.
Adams is concerning me. He looks a decent player, but he's not committed. He's been presented with a few really good chances. A committed player throws himself at the ball, but his attempts have been timid.
We've gone out with just one point. I don't think we've been that bad and with some luck, and cutting out basic mistakes, could have done better. That's football.
I agree with a lot of what you say. The basic mistakes were by players who either weren’t playing regularly, or had players who are head and shoulders above them in terms of talent. That’s the manager’s fault.What manager is going to take the Scottish job that's going to do any better?
We've regularly had players playing with EPL clubs and not been good enough. There hasn't been strength in depth and there still isn't. I don't rate McTominay as highly as others do. Robertson regularly has weak performances for Scotland, but everyone still expects him and Tierney to be shoehorned in.
There has been the argument for years that the Scottish managers should be picking players who are playing for their clubs and not picking players on reputation or the club they play for. Promising players like Gilmour and Patterson need to be regulars at club level.
We need to improve, but too many people got carried away. There wasn't much between us and the Czech Republic. We were the better team against England. Last night we still had our chances, but were second best. It was very poor defending for the first and second goals. It's individual mistakes rather than bad coaching. It wouldn't be Clarke's tactics standing off Modric allowing him the time and space for that shot. Quality strike, but that should have been closed down.
Adams is concerning me. He looks a decent player, but he's not committed. He's been presented with a few really good chances. A committed player throws himself at the ball, but his attempts have been timid.
We've gone out with just one point. I don't think we've been that bad and with some luck, and cutting out basic mistakes, could have done better. That's football.
Edited by Driver101 on Wednesday 23 June 11:05
Someone in my company said “if Adams wasn’t English, he would’ve scored that!” last night which is unfair but he’s certainly not as quick to put his face on the line as Dykes.
I think Clarke takes the blame for 1 goal and 1 point in 3 games but I’ve not suggested replacing him.
With regards to making it to the competition - we wouldn’t have been there any other year so there’s no evidence to suggest Clarke is any better than anyone previously. The squad is definitely the best it’s ever been and I can’t think of anyone we’ll miss who will be too old for the next Euros so onwards and upwards.
Now I’m not one for jumping on another team and trolling etc. However, does anyone feel that Scotland got a bit carried away after the England draw? For me (as English) it always felt like a derby that could go either way. Don’t get me wrong, you played well but there was never any doubt (in my mind) that you wouldn’t come out fighting and bring it to us. Unfortunately, the reality is that you’re still a fair way off the pace and all the fuss, to me at least, is a little embarrassing?
Type R Tom said:
Now I’m not one for jumping on another team and trolling etc. However, does anyone feel that Scotland got a bit carried away after the England draw? For me (as English) it always felt like a derby that could go either way. Don’t get me wrong, you played well but there was never any doubt (in my mind) that you wouldn’t come out fighting and bring it to us. Unfortunately, the reality is that you’re still a fair way off the pace and all the fuss, to me at least, is a little embarrassing?
Why does it matter? The pressure was on to get a result against England to stay in the competition. Supporters genuinely thought they could get result against Croatia. If it was a dead rubber in the third game there wouldn't have been such an outpouring of emotion.
The English just don't understand how arrogant and rude they are when it comes to football. When so many fans and pundits make such an effort to belittle us, criticise us and force us to watch completely biased TV then it's going to stir a reaction. You guys just don't get it.
Driver101 said:
Why does it matter?
The pressure was on to get a result against England to stay in the competition. Supporters genuinely thought they could get result against Croatia. If it was a dead rubber in the third game there wouldn't have been such an outpouring of emotion.
The English just don't understand how arrogant and rude they are when it comes to football. When so many fans and pundits make such an effort to belittle us, criticise us and force us to watch completely biased TV then it's going to stir a reaction. You guys just don't get it.
See to me it's really interesting you say that. From my perspective, all I seem to hear about in the press is "Scotland the brave" etc. "How well they battled". I really wasn't aware of that arrogance angle as I've not heard it, we seem to spend our entire time knocking ourselves! To me, it seems that winning the group at times was a poor result (in the press)! The pressure was on to get a result against England to stay in the competition. Supporters genuinely thought they could get result against Croatia. If it was a dead rubber in the third game there wouldn't have been such an outpouring of emotion.
The English just don't understand how arrogant and rude they are when it comes to football. When so many fans and pundits make such an effort to belittle us, criticise us and force us to watch completely biased TV then it's going to stir a reaction. You guys just don't get it.
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