Sono Motors Sion - solar EV...
Discussion
Just saw this via fullycharged on YouTube....test drives from early 2017 they say.
https://www.sonomotors.com/sion/
Nice vid:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sion-a-solarcar...
Not sure on the backgrounds of the team, seems quite an ambitious project to me but will be interesting to see how (if) it gets anywhere.
https://www.sonomotors.com/sion/
Nice vid:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sion-a-solarcar...
Not sure on the backgrounds of the team, seems quite an ambitious project to me but will be interesting to see how (if) it gets anywhere.
Vapourware, or worse, crowdfunding scamware.....
Peak solar insolation is around 1kW per m^2, and that's for helistatic panels, not those on the roof and side of a moving car, so typically i'd halve that basic insolation number to 500W/m^2.
Peak efficiency for solar panels is currently around 25% for REALLY expensive ones, so that's down to 125W/m^2.
Total useful/useable (sun only shines from one direction) surface area on what looks to be a conventionally styled 2 box passenger car, i'd estimate to around 3m^2, So we have 375W availible from our panel array
Lets be generous and say there are 6 hours a day with FULL sunshine (in reality, even with heliostatic panels, the extra length of atmosphere the solar rays have to travel through in evening/morning are a further limit). so in a day we have availible 2.25kWh of energy
Assuming sensible efficiency for the DC:DC converter and battery storage system of 90%, we capture a total of 2.025kWh a day.
Now a really well optimsied, but conventional EV (ie an leaf/i3 etc) which doesn't use too any low drag tricks (ie, not a solar race challenge car, that looks like a teardrop, and seats just one small adult in huge discomfort, and would completely crumple and kill you stone dead in the minor RTA) uses about 168Wh/Km.
So you can travel just 12km per day.
To get to their claimed "30 free kilometers per day are possible just from the electricity generated by the sun" would take a solar array of around 7.5m2, something very difficult indeed to package onto a conventional car!
Which is why, or course, solar challenge cars look like this:
and NOT like this:
Peak solar insolation is around 1kW per m^2, and that's for helistatic panels, not those on the roof and side of a moving car, so typically i'd halve that basic insolation number to 500W/m^2.
Peak efficiency for solar panels is currently around 25% for REALLY expensive ones, so that's down to 125W/m^2.
Total useful/useable (sun only shines from one direction) surface area on what looks to be a conventionally styled 2 box passenger car, i'd estimate to around 3m^2, So we have 375W availible from our panel array
Lets be generous and say there are 6 hours a day with FULL sunshine (in reality, even with heliostatic panels, the extra length of atmosphere the solar rays have to travel through in evening/morning are a further limit). so in a day we have availible 2.25kWh of energy
Assuming sensible efficiency for the DC:DC converter and battery storage system of 90%, we capture a total of 2.025kWh a day.
Now a really well optimsied, but conventional EV (ie an leaf/i3 etc) which doesn't use too any low drag tricks (ie, not a solar race challenge car, that looks like a teardrop, and seats just one small adult in huge discomfort, and would completely crumple and kill you stone dead in the minor RTA) uses about 168Wh/Km.
So you can travel just 12km per day.
To get to their claimed "30 free kilometers per day are possible just from the electricity generated by the sun" would take a solar array of around 7.5m2, something very difficult indeed to package onto a conventional car!
Which is why, or course, solar challenge cars look like this:
and NOT like this:
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th October 16:54
Max_Torque said:
Vapourware, or worse, crowdfunding scamware.....
Peak solar insolation is around 1kW per m^2, and that's for helistatic panels, not those on the roof and side of a moving car, so typically i'd halve that basic insolation number to 500W/m^2.
Peak efficiency for solar panels is currently around 25% for REALLY expensive ones, so that's down to 125W/m^2.
Total useful/useable (sun only shines from one direction) surface area on what looks to be a conventionally styled 2 box passenger car, i'd estimate to around 3m^2, So we have 375W availible from our panel array
Lets be generous and say there are 6 hours a day with FULL sunshine (in reality, even with heliostatic panels, the extra length of atmosphere the solar rays have to travel through in evening/morning are a further limit). so in a day we have availible 2.25kWh of energy
Assuming sensible efficiency for the DC:DC converter and battery storage system of 90%, we capture a total of 2.025kWh a day.
Now a really well optimsied, but conventional EV (ie an leaf/i3 etc) which doesn't use too any low drag tricks (ie, not a solar race challenge car, that looks like a teardrop, and seats just one small adult in huge discomfort, and would completely crumple and kill you stone dead in the minor RTA) uses about 168Wh/Km.
So you can travel just 12km per day.
To get to their claimed "30 free kilometers per day are possible just from the electricity generated by the sun" would take a solar array of around 7.5m2, something very difficult indeed to package onto a conventional car!
Which is why, or course, solar challenge cars look like this:
and NOT like this:
Thanks, very interesting. My simpler fag packet calcs come up with the same result. ;-)Peak solar insolation is around 1kW per m^2, and that's for helistatic panels, not those on the roof and side of a moving car, so typically i'd halve that basic insolation number to 500W/m^2.
Peak efficiency for solar panels is currently around 25% for REALLY expensive ones, so that's down to 125W/m^2.
Total useful/useable (sun only shines from one direction) surface area on what looks to be a conventionally styled 2 box passenger car, i'd estimate to around 3m^2, So we have 375W availible from our panel array
Lets be generous and say there are 6 hours a day with FULL sunshine (in reality, even with heliostatic panels, the extra length of atmosphere the solar rays have to travel through in evening/morning are a further limit). so in a day we have availible 2.25kWh of energy
Assuming sensible efficiency for the DC:DC converter and battery storage system of 90%, we capture a total of 2.025kWh a day.
Now a really well optimsied, but conventional EV (ie an leaf/i3 etc) which doesn't use too any low drag tricks (ie, not a solar race challenge car, that looks like a teardrop, and seats just one small adult in huge discomfort, and would completely crumple and kill you stone dead in the minor RTA) uses about 168Wh/Km.
So you can travel just 12km per day.
To get to their claimed "30 free kilometers per day are possible just from the electricity generated by the sun" would take a solar array of around 7.5m2, something very difficult indeed to package onto a conventional car!
Which is why, or course, solar challenge cars look like this:
and NOT like this:
Edited by Max_Torque on Tuesday 25th October 16:54
Our 4kWhp solar PV array is about 26m2 and captures around 22kWh on a very good day so 3m2 of car could give you circa 2.5kWh in the battery in a day.
A leaf does around 3 miles per kWh so that's 7.5miles or 12km.
In reality our roof faces south and I'd imagine the panels/inverter etc are rather more efficient than ones packaged into a car - so you'd get a few miles (on a very good day if you had a good parking space)!
Just a little update, I've been following their developments to see when they come out with anything realistic.
So far its raised €365,585 just on Indiegogo.
I can't see anyone in the team with automotive engineering experience (correct me if i'm wrong)
And they're very ambiguous over whether the batteries will be included for the 16k price.
They're onto one hell of a cashcow, but as an automotive engineer I find it incredibly frustrating.
So far its raised €365,585 just on Indiegogo.
I can't see anyone in the team with automotive engineering experience (correct me if i'm wrong)
And they're very ambiguous over whether the batteries will be included for the 16k price.
They're onto one hell of a cashcow, but as an automotive engineer I find it incredibly frustrating.
I shall doth my cap to them should they actually get a functional, legal and safe prototype driving on the roads in only 6 months starting from scratch. I presume that they're either completely naive and deluded, or they've got significant investment far beyond the €365k to realise their plans.
amstrange1 said:
I shall doth my cap to them should they actually get a functional, legal and safe prototype driving on the roads in only 6 months starting from scratch. I presume that they're either completely naive and deluded, or they've got significant investment far beyond the €365k to realise their plans.
From their videos, I fear it may be the former. As soon as they talked about selling parts for end customers to fit themselves using video instructions as something novel it was clear...The liabilities and risks involved in encouraging that?! Not to mention the influence on residuals.
Well they appear to have got something up and running. Are those stalks from an i3?! Love the moss!
https://youtu.be/87WBmdqjp-I
More info, still saying 30km per day from the solar in ideal conditions.
https://sonomotors.com/sion.html
They make this EV malarkey seem quick, easy and cheap ;-)
Test drive tour if anyone can make it:
https://youtu.be/lawceRhwoAc
https://youtu.be/87WBmdqjp-I
More info, still saying 30km per day from the solar in ideal conditions.
https://sonomotors.com/sion.html
They make this EV malarkey seem quick, easy and cheap ;-)
Test drive tour if anyone can make it:
https://youtu.be/lawceRhwoAc
Edited by danp on Wednesday 20th September 21:44
So they have taken more than 5000 pre-orders it seems. Lets hope this works or there are going to be some V angry people!
(and the fact the prototype those people have been test driving before putting down a deposit is pretty much an i3, meaning all the expensive stuff (suspension, idrive & NAV, driver controls, HVAC, ABS/DSC etc) just work properly. Sono claim they are going to use COP (Carry Over Parts) but i'm pretty dam sure if you were to try to use current production parts from a BMW, then you're going to have a load of lawyers on the phone pretty dam quickly. Whilst some parts are indeed 'owned' by the Teir1 suppliers (ie BOSCH, Continiental etc) they are generally going to be be well tied up in pre-binding supply agreements generally, hence you can't just buy an i3 in parts, put it together, slap your own badge on the nose and call it your new car.)
(and the fact the prototype those people have been test driving before putting down a deposit is pretty much an i3, meaning all the expensive stuff (suspension, idrive & NAV, driver controls, HVAC, ABS/DSC etc) just work properly. Sono claim they are going to use COP (Carry Over Parts) but i'm pretty dam sure if you were to try to use current production parts from a BMW, then you're going to have a load of lawyers on the phone pretty dam quickly. Whilst some parts are indeed 'owned' by the Teir1 suppliers (ie BOSCH, Continiental etc) they are generally going to be be well tied up in pre-binding supply agreements generally, hence you can't just buy an i3 in parts, put it together, slap your own badge on the nose and call it your new car.)
Plug Life said:
The solar range is bulls
t but I like the moss in the dash!
They claim "20% filtration for small dust particles" which is hopeless. A typical pleated paper filter, ie a cabin filter, will be well over 99% efficient in terms of capture capability within it's particle size group.....t but I like the moss in the dash!So i little birdy tells me that although BMW have "ok'd" the use of i3 parts for the prototype, they can't use them for production (no surprises there), which means that i hope they've made very sure to tell the pre-orderers that the car they will receive will be a whole lot less "premium" than the demo car(which looks to have a fully working BMW idrive system doing the ICE/NAV.
You hate to put down an order for a "mini i3" and then get a costed down Zoe instead............
They seem to think it's here: https://youtu.be/HjoHimaqqfY
Can see something like this ticking a lot of boxes in Southern Europe where people aren't hung up on badges, will tend not to use cars for much more than local pottering, leave them outside and don't want to spend a penny more than they need to for a box that will move without manual labour.
Quite interesting that it'll let you plug the house into it?
One can envisage this as possibly being the first key step to being your solar and battery for house infill and it also doubles as a shopping and local car.
Not buying in to the whole renting a it for car share stuff but there's no shortage of folk who do like renting their stuff out.
But it does seem like an EV that isn't hell bent on excess consumption, gadget wkery etc. Which is quite refreshing.
Can see something like this ticking a lot of boxes in Southern Europe where people aren't hung up on badges, will tend not to use cars for much more than local pottering, leave them outside and don't want to spend a penny more than they need to for a box that will move without manual labour.
Quite interesting that it'll let you plug the house into it?
One can envisage this as possibly being the first key step to being your solar and battery for house infill and it also doubles as a shopping and local car.
Not buying in to the whole renting a it for car share stuff but there's no shortage of folk who do like renting their stuff out.
But it does seem like an EV that isn't hell bent on excess consumption, gadget w
kery etc. Which is quite refreshing. Agree, this is an interesting proposition as EV white goods. Shame that they didn't hit their target sales price (or timing), but that's true of most start-ups.
Anyone know if they're still using BMW powertrain components? BMW were definitely willing to sell i3 parts for 3rd party production applications, but understandably needed to see credible volumes to make it worth their while in doing so.
Anyone know if they're still using BMW powertrain components? BMW were definitely willing to sell i3 parts for 3rd party production applications, but understandably needed to see credible volumes to make it worth their while in doing so.
Certainly, in the U.K. we are absolutely addicted to excess consumerism and this is very heavily reflected in the first generation of EVs. But while an electric drivetrain can add luxury it's current fixation with loading the vehicle up with as much product as possible isn't essential.
The simple drivetrain should open the door to simple cars as well as simple companies that produce them.
This car looks to be a small window into a market place that could be genuinely viable among consumers who just want a basic car.
When I watched the video last night my first thought was that it would make a great station car and boggo suburban runabout. Something like this could even become an anti statement to the excesses of consumption.
I do suspect, however, that the interesting price tag will evaporate should it get converted to GBP.
And I also wonder how easy it will be to replace the panels as they weaken/expire plus, how clean do you need to keep the car in order to scavenge that solar? One could envisage that where this type of car would work best also correlates with where people just don't wash their cars or have the spare water to do so?
The simple drivetrain should open the door to simple cars as well as simple companies that produce them.
This car looks to be a small window into a market place that could be genuinely viable among consumers who just want a basic car.
When I watched the video last night my first thought was that it would make a great station car and boggo suburban runabout. Something like this could even become an anti statement to the excesses of consumption.
I do suspect, however, that the interesting price tag will evaporate should it get converted to GBP.
And I also wonder how easy it will be to replace the panels as they weaken/expire plus, how clean do you need to keep the car in order to scavenge that solar? One could envisage that where this type of car would work best also correlates with where people just don't wash their cars or have the spare water to do so?
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 27th July 11:04
I assume on a filthy car there'll be a PV efficiency penalty, but it rains - and that seems good enough cleaning for static PV installations?
It'll be interesting to see what insurers make of it too - not sure that they'll have taken enough cost out the body panels to offset the expense of the PV kit, so I could imagine some mild prangs being pricey to repair. Presume they'll have done enough test and validation to make sure that a trolley ding doesn't write off the PV panels on a door for example!
Interesting points you make re: OEMs all going "premium" and feature-rich with the EVs - but I think that's the only way it's economically viable for them today. They're starting to see more serious volumes now, but batteries remain bloody expensive - so throwing some cheap gadgets and gizmos into the mix to make the customer wince less about the price is easy smoke and mirrors.
What's actually needed to deliver a cost-effective no frills EV today is customer acceptance of a lower range, so you can flog something with a 15-20kWh battery and still find customers. Today's EV buyers will happily pay a lot more for a lot of battery that some of them will never fully utilise. Tired first generation Nissan Leafs with only 40 miles usable range still seem to fetch £5k for what's a 10 year old car, so I think market acceptance will come.
It'll be interesting to see what insurers make of it too - not sure that they'll have taken enough cost out the body panels to offset the expense of the PV kit, so I could imagine some mild prangs being pricey to repair. Presume they'll have done enough test and validation to make sure that a trolley ding doesn't write off the PV panels on a door for example!
Interesting points you make re: OEMs all going "premium" and feature-rich with the EVs - but I think that's the only way it's economically viable for them today. They're starting to see more serious volumes now, but batteries remain bloody expensive - so throwing some cheap gadgets and gizmos into the mix to make the customer wince less about the price is easy smoke and mirrors.
What's actually needed to deliver a cost-effective no frills EV today is customer acceptance of a lower range, so you can flog something with a 15-20kWh battery and still find customers. Today's EV buyers will happily pay a lot more for a lot of battery that some of them will never fully utilise. Tired first generation Nissan Leafs with only 40 miles usable range still seem to fetch £5k for what's a 10 year old car, so I think market acceptance will come.
Top tip: Buy a s/h renault Zoe, 208, Leaf, i3 or MG EV not this thing.
This car is not cheap (E30,000) and it's awful.
The panel gaps make a Tesla look like a Bentley, the interior a Dacia look like an Audi, and the crash safety a Gwiz look like a Gwagen....... :-)
You'd have to be certifiable to buy this instead of say a Zoe, even when considering new.
This car is not cheap (E30,000) and it's awful.
The panel gaps make a Tesla look like a Bentley, the interior a Dacia look like an Audi, and the crash safety a Gwiz look like a Gwagen....... :-)
You'd have to be certifiable to buy this instead of say a Zoe, even when considering new.
Max_Torque said:
Top tip: Buy a s/h renault Zoe, 208, Leaf, i3 or MG EV not this thing.
This car is not cheap (E30,000) and it's awful.
The panel gaps make a Tesla look like a Bentley, the interior a Dacia look like an Audi, and the crash safety a Gwiz look like a Gwagen....... :-)
You'd have to be certifiable to buy this instead of say a Zoe, even when considering new.
it just means you don't 'get it'. plenty will if this comes to fruition.This car is not cheap (E30,000) and it's awful.
The panel gaps make a Tesla look like a Bentley, the interior a Dacia look like an Audi, and the crash safety a Gwiz look like a Gwagen....... :-)
You'd have to be certifiable to buy this instead of say a Zoe, even when considering new.
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