The Official Manchester United Thread [Vol 6]

[J.M.T]

Matic
Morata
Rodriguez

That's what I'd like to see

[57Ford]

Rodriguez as in James? The guy who has made a career out of 1 great World Cup which earned him a big transfer and then did nothing of any note. I've absolutely no interest in him myself and especially at the stupid price we'd be charged.
He'll probably come & win player of the year now though!

[Black can man]

jammy-git said:

If you guys thought Walker was worth £60m+ then I think Matic, a title winner, is worth £40m.

John Terry was a title winner last season too, don't see many bidding for him.

Jammy , you don't have talk bks at times.

[jammy-git]

Black can man said:

Jammy , you don't have talk bks at times.

Hmmm.

[franki68]

On the plus side matic has been first choice in the team that won 2 of the last 3 titles comfortably.Tremendous fitness record ,and is proven in the premier league.
You look around at other holding midfielders and who is available ?
Let's make no bones about it ,he would be a significant upgrade on fellaini .

[Challo]

franki68 said:

On the plus side matic has been first choice in the team that won 2 of the last 3 titles comfortably.Tremendous fitness record ,and is proven in the premier league.
You look around at other holding midfielders and who is available ?
Let's make no bones about it ,he would be a significant upgrade on fellaini .

Although its not an amazing signing he is proven in the prem, more mobility than Fellani and can offer something going forward with his range of passing.

Fellani did improve alot during the season he is just so limited at times.

[franki68]

Thing about fellaini is how he affects the entire team,look at the style of play when he wasn't in the team,best we've looked for 4 years ,and then after Jan when he started more games we played st style.

[ORD]

I agree re Fellaini - he plays fairly well a lot of the time but does something horrible to the shape and style of the team.

I have come over the years to think that a lot of things in football depend on threshold effects (for want of a better team - if there is one, I dont know it).

For example, having 4 midfielders who can all pass very well might be vastly better than having 3 midfielders who can all pass very well and 1 that is merely OK at passing. That one smallish difference could explain a huge disparity in performance. A lot of a manager's job is to identify these little changes that can make a huge difference.

(An even stronger example is probably the ability of a player to take the ball to feet while running at pace - if you have all or almost all of the players in the team able to do that, you can suddenly play a very different style and have a lot more confidence in possession.)

[London424]

Gavia said:

ORD said:

Unfit person A who is fat is fitter than very unfit person B. Irrelevant to a discussion about elite fitness levels. We are all grossly unfit compared to a PL footballer. To even be a PL footballer, you need to be a genetic freak in terms of CV fitness potential.

We are talking here about elite athletes whose job involves a lot of sprinting. A body fat percentage like Rooney's is a sign that something has gone very wrong. In his case, it is beers and staying up gambling.

Genetics schmenetics. If he stayed sober and did his training properly and ate properly, he would be ripped.

No he wouldn't. Way back when Rooney first signed for United the fitness coach had a body fat target for all players. One of his first discussions with SAF was that there was no way he could get Rooney down to that level. Rooney has won the footballing ability lottery, not the male model lottery. The original Ronaldo and Maradona spring to mind of two ridiculously talented p,ayers, who struggled with their weight. Rooney will explode when he quits football a la Steve Bruce / Micky Quinn, so keeping it in check now is a major feat.

None of the above is to defend his form or position in the team now though. It's time to move on, we've lost great players at the ends of their careers before and always moved forwards from it.

If a fitness coach can't get a professional athlete down to 10-12% bodyfat then they should be fired. Yes, all players have different body types and shapes but anyone employed in that sort of position should be competent enough to get players to that level. It's not rocket science, it's calories (different macro balance likely needed for different players) and exercise.

[ORD]

London424 said:

Gavia said:

ORD said:

Unfit person A who is fat is fitter than very unfit person B. Irrelevant to a discussion about elite fitness levels. We are all grossly unfit compared to a PL footballer. To even be a PL footballer, you need to be a genetic freak in terms of CV fitness potential.

We are talking here about elite athletes whose job involves a lot of sprinting. A body fat percentage like Rooney's is a sign that something has gone very wrong. In his case, it is beers and staying up gambling.

Genetics schmenetics. If he stayed sober and did his training properly and ate properly, he would be ripped.

No he wouldn't. Way back when Rooney first signed for United the fitness coach had a body fat target for all players. One of his first discussions with SAF was that there was no way he could get Rooney down to that level. Rooney has won the footballing ability lottery, not the male model lottery. The original Ronaldo and Maradona spring to mind of two ridiculously talented p,ayers, who struggled with their weight. Rooney will explode when he quits football a la Steve Bruce / Micky Quinn, so keeping it in check now is a major feat.

None of the above is to defend his form or position in the team now though. It's time to move on, we've lost great players at the ends of their careers before and always moved forwards from it.

If a fitness coach can't get a professional athlete down to 10-12% bodyfat then they should be fired. Yes, all players have different body types and shapes but anyone employed in that sort of position should be competent enough to get players to that level. It's not rocket science, it's calories (different macro balance likely needed for different players) and exercise.

There is a lot of science on this kind of stuff, and genetic differences are dwarfed in significance by even relatively small adjustments to lifestyle, nutrition and training focus. If, which I doubt, there are people who find it very much harder to get to 12% body fat than others, they are almost certainly not the kind of people who could ever succeed in PL football anyway (given that PL players have awesome energy systems, lots of type II muscle fibres, etc and so are inherently unlikely to be losers in the genetic lottery).

A lot of strength and conditioning coaches have no clue. Add to that the fact they probably take as read what the players tell them (e.g. I am not a pisshead, honest, and I dont stay up all night gambling) and you have a recipe for nonsense like "He will never get lean no matter what he does". !

[selym]

Thank God PL teams have this PH wealth of knowledge to fall back on when their own well paid coaches and nutritionists fall short of the mark.

[franki68]

selym said:

Thank God PL teams have this PH wealth of knowledge to fall back on when their own well paid coaches and nutritionists fall short of the mark.

In the same way that managers have the tactical geniuses on ph to fall back on.

[selym]

franki68 said:

selym said:

Thank God PL teams have this PH wealth of knowledge to fall back on when their own well paid coaches and nutritionists fall short of the mark.

In the same way that managers have the tactical geniuses on ph to fall back on.

So true...that extends to all professional walks of life doesn't it!

[ORD]

Managers aren't professionals. Nor are conditioning coaches. Most of the latter do not even have science degrees, let alone meaningful qualifications in the relevant fields of physiology. This is why footballers used until very recently to do a lot of jogging (about the most pointless thing a footballer can do).

I'm all for respecting expertise, but there is very little of it in football. Sam Allardyce FFS!

[chrisb92]

ORD said:

Managers aren't professionals. Nor are conditioning coaches. Most of the latter do not even have science degrees, let alone meaningful qualifications in the relevant fields of physiology. This is why footballers used until very recently to do a lot of jogging (about the most pointless thing a footballer can do).

I'm all for respecting expertise, but there is very little of it in football. Sam Allardyce FFS!

Are you a professional coach? What is your profession?

Talk to ten PTs and they'll all have a different way to make you stronger/fitter. It's all bks!!

[ORD]

chrisb92 said:

Are you a professional coach? What is your profession?

Talk to ten PTs and they'll all have a different way to make you stronger/fitter. It's all bks!!

No such thing as a professional coach

Nope - I've never worked in the area but take an interest in it and have read some of the relevant literature out of intellectual curiosity. What is surprising is how much the advice differs from one coach to another when the underlying science is pretty clear. Strength training is a good example - loads of different approaches when, in reality, it is pretty clear what works well and what does not (and why).

If you compare the approaches in the UK to those in the US, we are catching up but very slowly. A lot of PL footballers would be laughed out of a college training programme in the US for being too weak and slow.

[chrisb92]

ORD said:

chrisb92 said:

Are you a professional coach? What is your profession?

Talk to ten PTs and they'll all have a different way to make you stronger/fitter. It's all bks!!

No such thing as a professional coach

Nope - I've never worked in the area but take an interest in it and have read some of the relevant literature out of intellectual curiosity. What is surprising is how much the advice differs from one coach to another when the underlying science is pretty clear. Strength training is a good example - loads of different approaches when, in reality, it is pretty clear what works well and what does not (and why).

If you compare the approaches in the UK to those in the US, we are catching up but very slowly. A lot of PL footballers would be laughed out of a college training programme in the US for being too weak and slow.

I too have an interest and see different people at the gym using different techniques to get the same (ish) results!

Personally, as far as weight training is concerned I think the social media bandits have ruined it! So much guff on there. Train hard and eat big and you'll get gains simple as that!! I'm naturally very low in fat and have a very fast metabolism, so the polar opposite to Rooney, but when I really put my mind to eating properly the size and shape does come on!

[Challo]

ORD said:

chrisb92 said:

Are you a professional coach? What is your profession?

Talk to ten PTs and they'll all have a different way to make you stronger/fitter. It's all bks!!

No such thing as a professional coach

Nope - I've never worked in the area but take an interest in it and have read some of the relevant literature out of intellectual curiosity. What is surprising is how much the advice differs from one coach to another when the underlying science is pretty clear. Strength training is a good example - loads of different approaches when, in reality, it is pretty clear what works well and what does not (and why).

If you compare the approaches in the UK to those in the US, we are catching up but very slowly. A lot of PL footballers would be laughed out of a college training programme in the US for being too weak and slow.

So ORD your saying that most PT's, S&C Coaches etc are not qualified and have no idea what they are talking about and in principle what works for one person will work for another for fitness and building strength?

[ORD]

Challo said:

So ORD your saying that most PT's, S&C Coaches etc are not qualified and have no idea what they are talking about and in principle what works for one person will work for another for fitness and building strength?

Largely, yes. Take a bunch of physically sound young men with excellent genetic potential (i.e. anyone at a PL club) and any sensible training programme (if the players do as they are told outside of training) should result in excellent strength and conditioning outcomes. We are not talking about "non-responders" here - these people are pre-selected for athletic ability.

[ORD]

An interesting discussion could be had as to why some players sit at 10% body fat and others at 12%, I accept. Genetic differences probably play a big role there. But Rooney is and always has been an outlier.