The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 13]

[Cie]

anniesdad said:

type-r said:

Been saying this for the last 5 years!! Feels like deja vu but we need a leader in the middle, someone that can direct play, players look up to, can grab a game by the scruff of the neck. Ironically, we DO have someone like that.... just a shame that he is sits in the coach dugout and not on the pitch.

I've always wondered quite how Henderson ended up as a cover star on Fifa?!

He must have some friends high up at EA Sports!!

If I remember correctly there was a public vote and everyone voted for Henderson as a laugh (obviously) but there he is on the cover.

[Flip Martian]

m3sye said:

The difference between top top players a lot of time is not just ability its making the right decisions at the right time - we have to many players that switch off far too often - you see Lovren against UTD , gave Lukaku 0 sniff all day, he was pumped you could see the difference, against Spurs polar opposite - same goes for a number of players making wrong choices too often in games - this is what makes the top players stand out

Klopp will surely be learning more and more about certain players month after month, he trusts them as he feels they have the ability , most probably do when 100% switched on , problem is they are not 100% switched on enough and thats the difference between them and someone better.

Agree with this.

[jammy-git]

Exactly. The best players have that consistency. The next tier down can be the best on their day, but they don't do it every week.

[footnote]

jammy-git said:

footnote said:

People say Klopp doesn't want to spend money for 'the sake of it' but it wouldn't be for the sake of it - it would be to stop conceding goals. Klopp (if he genuinely has money and is the decision maker) might well have the desire to recruit only 'the best.. But Liverpool don't need 'the best' at the moment. They should settle for better. Looking at the goals against column in the Premier League - better would not be hard to achieve. Don't keep saying you'll only settle for the best when the best wouldn't look twice at you. Take people who are better. Buy Burnley's defence. Buy anyone's defence but do something. There is nothing that can be done with these players that will transform them into a defence comparable to Burnley's (why not?) so we have to come to terms with relative failure.

You don't seem to know the difference between buying good players and players looking good because they play in a system.

Both we and Utd have been fooled by Southampton in the past because the system they played was ultra-organised and flattered most who played in it. Take any of those players out of that system and suddenly like look a little more average (Lovren, Shaw, Schneiderlin, dare I saw Clyne too).

The same could easily happen if we just buy better. Unless you buy exceptionally better, there is every chance that in our chaotic system that 'only slightly better' player looks like Lovren 2.0.

Lallana also played in the Southampton system.

You can blame the system or lack of an obvious system or you can blame the players and say that whatever the system those players couldn't work it.

Do you want to ditch the coach because it's easier/cheaper than bigger changes?

When was the last time another club tried to buy one of our players (leaving aside Coutinho) specifically our defence?

Would you take a punt on any of them on the basis that they are clearly good players struggling in a bad system?

Changes is the answer to the problem. Players or System - it doesn't matter. Big change is the only way there will be any progress. These players have mainly been damaged by playing for Liverpool. Their confidence is shot. Their values have dropped. Nobody will fix that overnight. In fact, nobody will fix that. Clean starts all round is best for all. But that costs money and I don't think it's there - for any manager of Liverpool.
Which is why the only way Klopp will leave Liverpool will be if he walks - because no manager could do better with what we've got.

But if you think it's only the system...

[m3sye]

footnote said:

Lallana also played in the Southampton system.

You can blame the system or lack of an obvious system or you can blame the players and say that whatever the system those players couldn't work it.

Do you want to ditch the coach because it's easier/cheaper than bigger changes?

When was the last time another club tried to buy one of our players (leaving aside Coutinho) specifically our defence?

Would you take a punt on any of them on the basis that they are clearly good players struggling in a bad system?

Changes is the answer to the problem. Players or System - it doesn't matter. Big change is the only way there will be any progress. These players have mainly been damaged by playing for Liverpool. Their confidence is shot. Their values have dropped. Nobody will fix that overnight. In fact, nobody will fix that. Clean starts all round is best for all. But that costs money and I don't think it's there - for any manager of Liverpool.
Which is why the only way Klopp will leave Liverpool will be if he walks - because no manager could do better with what we've got.

But if you think it's only the system...

You are missing the point, he listed defender - Saints played with 2 DM , covering their CBs - see Fonte now at West Ham struggling too - Hammers also dont play with the same cover and they get exposed similar to us....

Lallana pretty much would suit any attacking team

[jammy-git]

Lallana wasn't that great under BR, it wasn't until Klopp came in and moved him back into midfield that he really became integral to our team (I can't wait till he's back and we get back to pressing properly again).

But the point I've been making is that we need to do both; change the players and improve the coaching.

I have no doubt that in a team like Burnley's, Tottenhams, Utd's even, players like Matip and Lovren would look so much better than they do now. I also think you could take Tottenhams two CBs and stick them in our defence and with our current system and coaching they'd look pretty average.

[m3sye]

jammy-git said:

L

I have no doubt that in a team like Burnley's, Tottenhams, Utd's even, players like Matip and Lovren would look so much better than they do now. I also think you could take Tottenhams two CBs and stick them in our defence and with our current system and coaching they'd look pretty average.

Without doubt - but I have seen a video of Lovren floating around on twitter, no matter how many DM's you have you cannot help that - he is simply just not good enough - its like he totally switches off or has massive brain farts during games....

He is not the only one though, so this is not all about him, as we dont defend as a team well enough, concentration and anticipation for the 2nd ball is poor, and its obious Klopp has worked and worked on this as he keeps going on about it...simply again players not being switched on
Be great if we could sit a decent DM in midfield but we dont have any, i still think Can is best option for that position...

[London424]

m3sye said:

jammy-git said:

L

I have no doubt that in a team like Burnley's, Tottenhams, Utd's even, players like Matip and Lovren would look so much better than they do now. I also think you could take Tottenhams two CBs and stick them in our defence and with our current system and coaching they'd look pretty average.

Without doubt - but I have seen a video of Lovren floating around on twitter, no matter how many DM's you have you cannot help that - he is simply just not good enough - its like he totally switches off or has massive brain farts during games....

He is not the only one though, so this is not all about him, as we dont defend as a team well enough, concentration and anticipation for the 2nd ball is poor, and its obious Klopp has worked and worked on this as he keeps going on about it...simply again players not being switched on
Be great if we could sit a decent DM in midfield but we dont have any, i still think Can is best option for that position...

But Lovren looked perfectly good at Southampton in a system that suited him, no?

You only have to look at what a manager can do with any players at their disposal if they want to. There is a reason why Pulis, Allardyce et al get rolled out for clubs in danger. The first thing they do is make them hard to beat.

I don't want to keep banging on about Spurs, but before Poch came in they had a car crash of a defense, with the same personnel (for the most part) he turned them around completely.

[NRS]

London424 said:

But Lovren looked perfectly good at Southampton in a system that suited him, no?

You only have to look at what a manager can do with any players at their disposal if they want to. There is a reason why Pulis, Allardyce et al get rolled out for clubs in danger. The first thing they do is make them hard to beat.

I don't want to keep banging on about Spurs, but before Poch came in they had a car crash of a defense, with the same personnel (for the most part) he turned them around completely.

I'd have to agree some/ a lot? is down to the system we are playing meaning the defence is more exposed than they might be, meaning any mistakes are properly punished.

desolate said:

I reckon you can spend that now.

Must be a couple of pints in Norway that. Maybe even 3.

[jammy-git]

NRS said:

I'd have to agree some/ a lot? is down to the system we are playing meaning the defence is more exposed than they might be, meaning any mistakes are properly punished.

Exactly. But Klopp isn't a defensive manager and never will be. He focuses on attack first and tbh I prefer that.

BUT, it does mean that the players in defence and midfield absolutely have to be the best quality, because the system isn't going to help them out of trouble. Which is why buying only slightly better players won't work at all.

[m3sye]

London424 said:

But Lovren looked perfectly good at Southampton in a system that suited him, no?

You only have to look at what a manager can do with any players at their disposal if they want to. There is a reason why Pulis, Allardyce et al get rolled out for clubs in danger. The first thing they do is make them hard to beat.

I don't want to keep banging on about Spurs, but before Poch came in they had a car crash of a defense, with the same personnel (for the most part) he turned them around completely.

Thats the point, so did Fonte in a system with 2 defensive Midfielders in front - our CB's are so stretched its silly, so yes its a klopp fault and something he will no doubt have to address if we are to win anything.... I just feel if we had added Kieta, and VVD we would be a different team this year - Can, Kieta, Coutinho would have been my 3 with Can the number 6.....
VVD next to Matip would help as he is much more of a leader...and would have instructed others in the back line a lot more than Lovren or Matip currently do...

[footnote]

m3sye said:

footnote said:

Lallana also played in the Southampton system.

You can blame the system or lack of an obvious system or you can blame the players and say that whatever the system those players couldn't work it.

Do you want to ditch the coach because it's easier/cheaper than bigger changes?

When was the last time another club tried to buy one of our players (leaving aside Coutinho) specifically our defence?

Would you take a punt on any of them on the basis that they are clearly good players struggling in a bad system?

Changes is the answer to the problem. Players or System - it doesn't matter. Big change is the only way there will be any progress. These players have mainly been damaged by playing for Liverpool. Their confidence is shot. Their values have dropped. Nobody will fix that overnight. In fact, nobody will fix that. Clean starts all round is best for all. But that costs money and I don't think it's there - for any manager of Liverpool.
Which is why the only way Klopp will leave Liverpool will be if he walks - because no manager could do better with what we've got.

But if you think it's only the system...

You are missing the point, he listed defender - Saints played with 2 DM , covering their CBs - see Fonte now at West Ham struggling too - Hammers also dont play with the same cover and they get exposed similar to us....

Lallana pretty much would suit any attacking team

I'm not missing the point.
Your point only applies to the defenders - Lallana is the exception but Southampton didn't play with a 'system' exclusive to the defenders, did they?

So it's not the full story to claim that only Southampton's excellent system made ordinary players seem great and then exclude Lallana from that analysis on the basis that he wasn't a defender and he's brilliant anyway!

There are no super 'solve all your problem' systems in the same way that there is not one player who will transform Liverpool's fortunes.

[jammy-git]

Liverpool Echo have an article saying Gruijic did very well yesterday for U23s in the number 6 role against Utd. But then Utd are currently bottom of PL2, so maybe that doesn't say much.

[m3sye]

footnote said:

I'm not missing the point.
Your point only applies to the defenders - Lallana is the exception but Southampton didn't play with a 'system' exclusive to the defenders, did they?

So it's not the full story to claim that only Southampton's excellent system made ordinary players seem great and then exclude Lallana from that analysis on the basis that he wasn't a defender and he's brilliant anyway!

There are no super 'solve all your problem' systems in the same way that there is not one player who will transform Liverpool's fortunes.

Simply saying if you are a CB with 2 designated DM's in fronty of you, you are going to get a st load more cover than you will at LFC who play with HENDO, CAN, WIJNALDUM, none of which are anything like a DM - like strikjers you cant train players natural ability to be a DM , see Wanyama, Kante etc etc none of those could be those players

If you think that Lovren was not as exposed playing for Saints as he is playing for us then thats your opinion but like even Carragher said its fact, and he would have hated to play CB for us now....

[footnote]

m3sye said:

footnote said:

I'm not missing the point.
Your point only applies to the defenders - Lallana is the exception but Southampton didn't play with a 'system' exclusive to the defenders, did they?

So it's not the full story to claim that only Southampton's excellent system made ordinary players seem great and then exclude Lallana from that analysis on the basis that he wasn't a defender and he's brilliant anyway!

There are no super 'solve all your problem' systems in the same way that there is not one player who will transform Liverpool's fortunes.

Simply saying if you are a CB with 2 designated DM's in fronty of you, you are going to get a st load more cover than you will at LFC who play with HENDO, CAN, WIJNALDUM, none of which are anything like a DM - like strikjers you cant train players natural ability to be a DM , see Wanyama, Kante etc etc none of those could be those players

If you think that Lovren was not as exposed playing for Saints as he is playing for us then thats your opinion but like even Carragher said its fact, and he would have hated to play CB for us now....

But the implication of what you're saying there is that Lovren is the only or main problem. I'd have to disagree. Changing him alone wouldn't achieve anything like what's needed to progress beyond what we are now.

It's like a jigsaw where the wrong pieces have been pushed into the wrong places. You have what looks like a team, but it's all wonky. Remove Lovren and you'll find that the pieces around him are also wrong. The jigsaw is broken. You have to take it apart and start again.

And then you have to ask if this jigsaw is broken beyond repair - do I have to go out and buy all new pieces or can I salvage any of the ones I already have?

In those circumstances, with the freedom to disregard all existing contracts and start again from scratch, who would you actually keep out of the Liverpool team? Who could you genuinely say is worth buying other players to fit around rather than who can fit around the new players you would buy?

Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Milner, Can, Lallana?

Would anyone take the rest? Or are they better as someone else's problem - see if they fit better in someone else's jigsaw?

I think it's very telling about the quality of Liverpool's squad, that you would have to sell quite a few of them to buy one better player. And a lot of that is because they've lost value at Liverpool - because they don't work well together. They arrived looking good and will leave looking st.

[Ascayman]

You chaps had an out and out DM and the manager let him go.

The reason you cant defend is down to Klopp.

[m3sye]

footnote said:

But the implication of what you're saying there is that Lovren is the only or main problem. I'd have to disagree. Changing him alone wouldn't achieve anything like what's needed to progress beyond what we are now.

It's like a jigsaw where the wrong pieces have been pushed into the wrong places. You have what looks like a team, but it's all wonky. Remove Lovren and you'll find that the pieces around him are also wrong. The jigsaw is broken. You have to take it apart and start again.

And then you have to ask if this jigsaw is broken beyond repair - do I have to go out and buy all new pieces or can I salvage any of the ones I already have?

In those circumstances, with the freedom to disregard all existing contracts and start again from scratch, who would you actually keep out of the Liverpool team? Who could you genuinely say is worth buying other players to fit around rather than who can fit around the new players you would buy?

Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Milner, Can, Lallana?

Would anyone take the rest? Or are they better as someone else's problem - see if they fit better in someone else's jigsaw?

I think it's very telling about the quality of Liverpool's squad, that you would have to sell quite a few of them to buy one better player. And a lot of that is because they've lost value at Liverpool - because they don't work well together. They arrived looking good and will leave looking st.

No I am not, I am saying our CB's are exposed in the system we have, I used Lovren as an example as people used to say he was a decent CB at Saints, just like they did with Fonte, who is also struggling at the hammers
He was a better CB at Saints as he had more cover - its simple, surely you can see that if you have 2 proper DM's if you are a CB you are going to get exposed less than if you have 0
What I am saying is for certain games we need a different set up, we can still be attacking but just with a bit more protection as the top teams like Spurs are going to take advantage of the space you give them....

I am not sure if you are a LFC fan or not but trust me anyone who plays CB for us will get exposed, you could stick Spurs guys in and they would not look anywhere near as good as they do for Spurs...

[epom]

Moaninho was the only one able to solve Liverpool's defensive woes recently.

[jammy-git]

Ascayman said:

You chaps had an out and out DM and the manager let him go.

The reason you cant defend is down to Klopp.

We couldn't defend when we had that "out and out DM" and before Klopp came in.

[m3sye]

Ascayman said:

You chaps had an out and out DM and the manager let him go.

The reason you cant defend is down to Klopp.

IMHO lucas 2 years ago would have been ok - but he is not up to standard for a team wanting to be top 4 anymore .... He will do fine in Italy, much slower game....