Discussion
OK fellow hifi nerds, here's one for you.
Current setup -
Source: - Custom PC with lossless/hi-rez flac from the NAS, running WASAPI drivers from Jriver. And Kodi. Outputting USB, into..
DAC/Pre: BMC PureDAC (a truly stunning DAC for the money)
Amp: Krell 300i
Cables: Transparent Music Wave from 2003
Speakers: Sonus Faber Cremona
Very very happy with the sound. I've auditioned lots of combinations over many years of and just settled on the Krell / Transparent / Faber combo. (originally had a Meridian 596 feeding that).
Latest addition was the BMC because I was looking for a killer DAC - and nothing I've heard under 5k beats this.
But this means I don't really need my 300i. (a) it's decades old so there must be a good upgrade option available now; and (b) I don't like that I'm duplicating Pre-amp, I think I'd get an instant upgrade just utilising the BMC Pre rather than the Krell pre. Hence likely double whammy if I upgrade the the 300i to a pure power amp.
Question is which one.. I tried a few powers, including the matching BMC one - but don't know if I'm just getting old but the BMC power was better on some tracks and worse on others so net net I couldn't justify the uptick. I also tried this coupled with Tellurium cables, which again just felt a bit 'thinner' than my Transparents.
I think I probably would end up going back to Krell given my history, but there are a million and one Krells out there in a thousand different series. I'm looking second hand so I can't just 'go out and audition them all' - obviously - so I'm wondering if anyone has any experience and suggestions? The KSA100 MKII sounds like it might be worth a crack. Got about 2k to spank but might go to 3k if there's a good reason why. 1-1.5k ideal.
(I know KSA means Stero Amp; and KAV means Audio Visual; but the other ranges? KST? etc... no clue!)
So hit me with it!
Current setup -
Source: - Custom PC with lossless/hi-rez flac from the NAS, running WASAPI drivers from Jriver. And Kodi. Outputting USB, into..
DAC/Pre: BMC PureDAC (a truly stunning DAC for the money)
Amp: Krell 300i
Cables: Transparent Music Wave from 2003
Speakers: Sonus Faber Cremona
Very very happy with the sound. I've auditioned lots of combinations over many years of and just settled on the Krell / Transparent / Faber combo. (originally had a Meridian 596 feeding that).
Latest addition was the BMC because I was looking for a killer DAC - and nothing I've heard under 5k beats this.
But this means I don't really need my 300i. (a) it's decades old so there must be a good upgrade option available now; and (b) I don't like that I'm duplicating Pre-amp, I think I'd get an instant upgrade just utilising the BMC Pre rather than the Krell pre. Hence likely double whammy if I upgrade the the 300i to a pure power amp.
Question is which one.. I tried a few powers, including the matching BMC one - but don't know if I'm just getting old but the BMC power was better on some tracks and worse on others so net net I couldn't justify the uptick. I also tried this coupled with Tellurium cables, which again just felt a bit 'thinner' than my Transparents.
I think I probably would end up going back to Krell given my history, but there are a million and one Krells out there in a thousand different series. I'm looking second hand so I can't just 'go out and audition them all' - obviously - so I'm wondering if anyone has any experience and suggestions? The KSA100 MKII sounds like it might be worth a crack. Got about 2k to spank but might go to 3k if there's a good reason why. 1-1.5k ideal.
(I know KSA means Stero Amp; and KAV means Audio Visual; but the other ranges? KST? etc... no clue!)
So hit me with it!
Edited by Angrybiker on Tuesday 21st November 13:42
Nice problem to have 
Is the preamp in the BMC an analogue device? Reason I ask is that 'word on the street' says digital preamps which dither the output aren't as pure as well designed analogue preamps no matter what the manufacturer blurb says.
I owned a 300i many years ago so not really a recent comparison but I was happy with the sound - I have a CA SM6 streamer/DAC/pre and I prefer the sound using a separate preamp (another Krell, KRC-3) rather than the CA feeding my power amp. The SM6 amplifies in the digital domain using a 32 bit shark DSP chip - blurb says it leaves signal unaffected - I, not so sure...
The early SFs were developed and voiced using Krell FPB power amps so there should be a natural synergy. The KSA series are earlier models than the FPB and are getting rather old now so any used item could well be due a service / cap change - this can be very expensive!
I love the Krell house sound - dark, powerful and unburstable - I'm actively seeking something like a clean FPB300. If I spot anything I post it up.
With the used market it can be fun buying at reasonable prices, trial and sell on with little/no loss but it gets very awkward when dealing with 35Kg power amps (my current amp came on a pallet and is a frankly rediculous 55kg - madness...).
What I'm trying to say is, if the itch to go to a power amp is there then an FPB series Krell will be fantastic with your speakers and front end. Everything the 300i gives with a huge grip on the bass. Unfortunately (as you probably know) Krell hold their value (for good reassign IMHO) so you're never going to get a cheap option although bargains do crop up now and again - pair of 350M mono blocks sold recently for a couple of grand although there led a hard life.
If you find an FPB 200 for under £1750 I'd jump at it. Top of your budget would have got a 400CX stereo amp (far more recent range with cast I/v inputs as well as usual balanced) a few months ago. It should easily get you a recently serviced and re-capped FPB300.
As I said, any of these should be a relatively easy sell on if they don't suit.
Is the preamp in the BMC an analogue device? Reason I ask is that 'word on the street' says digital preamps which dither the output aren't as pure as well designed analogue preamps no matter what the manufacturer blurb says.
I owned a 300i many years ago so not really a recent comparison but I was happy with the sound - I have a CA SM6 streamer/DAC/pre and I prefer the sound using a separate preamp (another Krell, KRC-3) rather than the CA feeding my power amp. The SM6 amplifies in the digital domain using a 32 bit shark DSP chip - blurb says it leaves signal unaffected - I, not so sure...
The early SFs were developed and voiced using Krell FPB power amps so there should be a natural synergy. The KSA series are earlier models than the FPB and are getting rather old now so any used item could well be due a service / cap change - this can be very expensive!
I love the Krell house sound - dark, powerful and unburstable - I'm actively seeking something like a clean FPB300. If I spot anything I post it up.
With the used market it can be fun buying at reasonable prices, trial and sell on with little/no loss but it gets very awkward when dealing with 35Kg power amps (my current amp came on a pallet and is a frankly rediculous 55kg - madness...).
What I'm trying to say is, if the itch to go to a power amp is there then an FPB series Krell will be fantastic with your speakers and front end. Everything the 300i gives with a huge grip on the bass. Unfortunately (as you probably know) Krell hold their value (for good reassign IMHO) so you're never going to get a cheap option although bargains do crop up now and again - pair of 350M mono blocks sold recently for a couple of grand although there led a hard life.
If you find an FPB 200 for under £1750 I'd jump at it. Top of your budget would have got a 400CX stereo amp (far more recent range with cast I/v inputs as well as usual balanced) a few months ago. It should easily get you a recently serviced and re-capped FPB300.
As I said, any of these should be a relatively easy sell on if they don't suit.
Nice answer, thanks!
The BMC pre is digital, but here's what a reviewer said about it vs tube: "I used my Rogue Audio 99 Super Magnum (tube) preamplifier most of the time, but I also used the line level preamp section of the PureDAC for a few days to get a sense of its sound or lack thereof. The end result is that the two preamps sounded amazingly similar with the Rogue being a touch warmer in the mid-range region."
The BMC is an outstanding bit of kit, punches well above its weight.
Yeah I think you're right, probably best to not go for the old ones - you never know how they've been driven / cap changes etc.
No FPB's around at the moment it seems... I did see a KAV2250 on ebay for around 1500 - that's a 2011 model if I'm not mistaken.....
The BMC pre is digital, but here's what a reviewer said about it vs tube: "I used my Rogue Audio 99 Super Magnum (tube) preamplifier most of the time, but I also used the line level preamp section of the PureDAC for a few days to get a sense of its sound or lack thereof. The end result is that the two preamps sounded amazingly similar with the Rogue being a touch warmer in the mid-range region."
The BMC is an outstanding bit of kit, punches well above its weight.
Yeah I think you're right, probably best to not go for the old ones - you never know how they've been driven / cap changes etc.
No FPB's around at the moment it seems... I did see a KAV2250 on ebay for around 1500 - that's a 2011 model if I'm not mistaken.....
Edited by Angrybiker on Tuesday 21st November 14:48
If a Krell crops up with provenance proving recent re-capping then that's an amp to last decades - personally I'd prefer a serviced FPB over a newer 2250 all things being equal. Unfortunately cost means they aren't equal...
I can't remember if the 300i was split to you could take a pre out, power in - if so, might be worth trying the DAC as a pre into the power section of the 300i.
Bit of an odd question here - what's wrong with the sound at the minute and what are you trying to improve?
Don't get me wrong - I 'get' seeing all those lovely, formally mega money Krells going for a relative pittance and I'm as susceptible as the next bloke to 'man jewellery' but those speakers aren't a taxing load for the Krell and I personally rate the 300i as an audiophile bargain - even at new prices they were something special way back then. I'm not sure if a 2250 would do anything better than what you're using.
On the other hand, I know a lad I've dealt with in the recent past who has a services FPB300 that he was asking me to help value - I can context him to see if it's for sale if you like? He's near Ipswich of memory serves.
I can't remember if the 300i was split to you could take a pre out, power in - if so, might be worth trying the DAC as a pre into the power section of the 300i.
Bit of an odd question here - what's wrong with the sound at the minute and what are you trying to improve?
Don't get me wrong - I 'get' seeing all those lovely, formally mega money Krells going for a relative pittance and I'm as susceptible as the next bloke to 'man jewellery' but those speakers aren't a taxing load for the Krell and I personally rate the 300i as an audiophile bargain - even at new prices they were something special way back then. I'm not sure if a 2250 would do anything better than what you're using.
On the other hand, I know a lad I've dealt with in the recent past who has a services FPB300 that he was asking me to help value - I can context him to see if it's for sale if you like? He's near Ipswich of memory serves.
No it can't be split unfortunately, so I have this strange situation where I can control volume on both puredac and krell! I actually don't like that not for any reason other than it's just not neat. And my speaker cables are way too long (and also super fat bi-wired for my old Grand Pianos) so I might talk to Transparent about their upgrade programme and maybe get some shorter ones.
The 'why' is a bit of a story. I've salivated over Cremonas after listening to them when they were launched and I was itching for the time when they got to a decent used price. So when I saw a pair at target price at Choice hifi I talked to Alain there and said hey what can you suggest DAC wise? I've got all these flacs now and I want a decent DAC to finally realise my dream of convenient but proper hifi without walls full of CDs/DVDs. Thus came the puredac and cremonas. There's not much in my sound itself that I'm dis-satisfied with but when I went to pick up the speakers and dac the sound from the system he had set up in his front room.... wow... so he knew what I liked from that system and mine (when he came to help set them up with me). Alain knows his stuff - knows the 300i well and 'it's limitations'; waxed lyrical for a long time about history of specific amps/types of amps with my setup; doesn't understand the big deal about Transparent; said using only the BMC pre would be a noticeable improvement on the Krell pre which I can't bypass - so that got me thinking "well, the 300i is a bit old now, hailing from the 90s, amp technology has moved on a lot so maybe get 2 upgrades in one - better pre and more recent power just by buying one unit - who can say fairer than that?! And if ebay is right and a grand is market value for an old 300i then it could be pretty cheap to do as well.
ooo that would be nice of you re. FPB, thanks a lot! And the BMC has got balanced outputs too.. Ipswich is a bit of a drive from SW London but worth a Saturday
The 'why' is a bit of a story. I've salivated over Cremonas after listening to them when they were launched and I was itching for the time when they got to a decent used price. So when I saw a pair at target price at Choice hifi I talked to Alain there and said hey what can you suggest DAC wise? I've got all these flacs now and I want a decent DAC to finally realise my dream of convenient but proper hifi without walls full of CDs/DVDs. Thus came the puredac and cremonas. There's not much in my sound itself that I'm dis-satisfied with but when I went to pick up the speakers and dac the sound from the system he had set up in his front room.... wow... so he knew what I liked from that system and mine (when he came to help set them up with me). Alain knows his stuff - knows the 300i well and 'it's limitations'; waxed lyrical for a long time about history of specific amps/types of amps with my setup; doesn't understand the big deal about Transparent; said using only the BMC pre would be a noticeable improvement on the Krell pre which I can't bypass - so that got me thinking "well, the 300i is a bit old now, hailing from the 90s, amp technology has moved on a lot so maybe get 2 upgrades in one - better pre and more recent power just by buying one unit - who can say fairer than that?! And if ebay is right and a grand is market value for an old 300i then it could be pretty cheap to do as well.
ooo that would be nice of you re. FPB, thanks a lot! And the BMC has got balanced outputs too.. Ipswich is a bit of a drive from SW London but worth a Saturday
Shame about being unable to split - I guessed that was the case but so many boxes over the years I forget what does what. Strangely I always remember what sounded good 'to me' and what didn't quite reach the levels the hype suggested...
Choice have been in the game for a long while and someone still in that trade must be doing something right but I disagree that pre-amp sections have moved on 'that' much to be honest - saying that, I have limited experience of owning a few and listening to a few more - digital pre in streamer sounds a little 'clinical' to me so I've set it to fixed line out and rely on old faithful - the KRC is like an old pair of slippers.
I'll drop the Krell owner a message - I was interested myself but think I'll wait for a 'forever' monster to turn up - FPB600 has my name it. Recently got speakers I've been after for years - B&W 800 Diamond and the reviews are correct - they're a b
d load for any amplifier.
Just before I agreed to buy them a pair of original SF Cremona turned up for sale at £2500 and I was so, so tempted - heard the Amati driven with Krell some years ago and that experience stays with you - I understand you'll have a fine sounding system there hence the question earlier
I honestly think the 300i is almost the perfect foil for SF - the dark Krell matches well with the SF which can sound a little sweet at times and the amp easily has the balls to control those bass drivers.
Just to add to your confusion (bit possibly saving you a couple of grand) - never thought of the 400iX baby Krell? It's the modern equivalent to the 300i with a little more power, bigger power supply and updated looks similar to the 2250 range. Those that thought the 300i lacked a little 'air' say the 400 has it sorted.
Never heard one myself but buy wisely and it could cost you 300i + couple of hundred.
Whatever you do, enjoy the game - getting something that doesn't suit is just as helpful as the perfect fit as ounzome in on what makes music tick for you. And it's great opening big boxes every so often
Choice have been in the game for a long while and someone still in that trade must be doing something right but I disagree that pre-amp sections have moved on 'that' much to be honest - saying that, I have limited experience of owning a few and listening to a few more - digital pre in streamer sounds a little 'clinical' to me so I've set it to fixed line out and rely on old faithful - the KRC is like an old pair of slippers.
I'll drop the Krell owner a message - I was interested myself but think I'll wait for a 'forever' monster to turn up - FPB600 has my name it. Recently got speakers I've been after for years - B&W 800 Diamond and the reviews are correct - they're a b
d load for any amplifier.Just before I agreed to buy them a pair of original SF Cremona turned up for sale at £2500 and I was so, so tempted - heard the Amati driven with Krell some years ago and that experience stays with you - I understand you'll have a fine sounding system there hence the question earlier
I honestly think the 300i is almost the perfect foil for SF - the dark Krell matches well with the SF which can sound a little sweet at times and the amp easily has the balls to control those bass drivers.
Just to add to your confusion (bit possibly saving you a couple of grand) - never thought of the 400iX baby Krell? It's the modern equivalent to the 300i with a little more power, bigger power supply and updated looks similar to the 2250 range. Those that thought the 300i lacked a little 'air' say the 400 has it sorted.
Never heard one myself but buy wisely and it could cost you 300i + couple of hundred.
Whatever you do, enjoy the game - getting something that doesn't suit is just as helpful as the perfect fit as ounzome in on what makes music tick for you. And it's great opening big boxes every so often
Cool, thanks!
Yeah wasn't clear - the 'moved on a lot' bit was more me than him, though he did say it had moved enough to warrant considering an upgrade. Most people say the 300i is the weak link now - even though tbh I still love the sound from it... But if I get the same and more from FPB then hell why not! Yeah I'll have to change to balanced cables but what they hey.
Amati... drool... *sigh* Choice have a pair right now for 12k... wonder if he'll take 3 and a smile?......
I asked about the 400 actually, seen a few on the shelves in a few places, but general consensus seemed to be 'nah don't bother, do a bigger step'
Yeah wasn't clear - the 'moved on a lot' bit was more me than him, though he did say it had moved enough to warrant considering an upgrade. Most people say the 300i is the weak link now - even though tbh I still love the sound from it... But if I get the same and more from FPB then hell why not! Yeah I'll have to change to balanced cables but what they hey.
Amati... drool... *sigh* Choice have a pair right now for 12k... wonder if he'll take 3 and a smile?......
I asked about the 400 actually, seen a few on the shelves in a few places, but general consensus seemed to be 'nah don't bother, do a bigger step'
Edited by Angrybiker on Tuesday 21st November 17:22
Fair enough on the 400.
As someone who has a CD player that hasn't been powered up for 2 years I'm firmly in the streaming FLAC brigade - no turning back. Whereas the last 5 years has seen massive improvements in digital front ends (I suspect DCS owners from a decade ago would disagree but I don't have £30K to throw at a hifi!!) I think it's levelled off this past 24 months - I think the same thing has happened to analogue amplification but 10 or 20 years ago!!
Digital amps.....another kettle of fish. I've heard Bel Canto and some Nord stuff with B&O modules and they leave me cold - still some way to go there methinks. Fantastic for powered subs mind (I understand that could be read as a bit of a slur).
Amati for £3000?
I'll tell you what happens then - you'll be looking for the homage model or the Stradivari - that's how the games works lol.
Oh, you edited your post - if they're in red with chrome trim just get the credit card out. Now. ,!!
Gorgeous gorgeous things. The fact they produce sound is just an aside...
As someone who has a CD player that hasn't been powered up for 2 years I'm firmly in the streaming FLAC brigade - no turning back. Whereas the last 5 years has seen massive improvements in digital front ends (I suspect DCS owners from a decade ago would disagree but I don't have £30K to throw at a hifi!!) I think it's levelled off this past 24 months - I think the same thing has happened to analogue amplification but 10 or 20 years ago!!
Digital amps.....another kettle of fish. I've heard Bel Canto and some Nord stuff with B&O modules and they leave me cold - still some way to go there methinks. Fantastic for powered subs mind (I understand that could be read as a bit of a slur).
Amati for £3000?
I'll tell you what happens then - you'll be looking for the homage model or the Stradivari - that's how the games works lol.
Oh, you edited your post - if they're in red with chrome trim just get the credit card out. Now. ,!!
Gorgeous gorgeous things. The fact they produce sound is just an aside...
Edited by legzr1 on Tuesday 21st November 17:31
I'm not sure what levels you play back at but these may be an option. https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/172965537612?chn=ps&d...
They look like toys unfortunately but if you can see past the that, the reviews on the forums and the customer testimonials are incredible. Here is one of the press reviews http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/05...
I've seen plenty of forum posters who have sold Levinson, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research and Krell amp setups and used these instead. Google is your friend....
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/04...
They look like toys unfortunately but if you can see past the that, the reviews on the forums and the customer testimonials are incredible. Here is one of the press reviews http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/05...
I've seen plenty of forum posters who have sold Levinson, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research and Krell amp setups and used these instead. Google is your friend....
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/04...
Edited by Crackie on Wednesday 22 November 08:18
Angrybiker said:
ooo that would be nice of you re. FPB, thanks a lot! And the BMC has got balanced outputs too.. Ipswich is a bit of a drive from SW London but worth a Saturday
The FPB is still available, it's the 300, priced mentioned was around £3K serviced but not clear if that's actually been done yet - should find out soon.Oh, God knows where I got Ipswich from....he's based in Basildon!! Still a bit of a hike but not quite East Anglia.
hmmm. those look interesting Crackle. My dilemma though is that if I broaden the net and start trying out lots of amps then I'm into many many weekends of auditioning; and considering how much auditioning it took to get me to my trusted combo I think the most practical thing to do is to stick with Krell.
Legz - Thanks for that. I could be in for that, especially if it's 'only' 2k uptick from mine. Do you know if it's the 300 or the 300c? (the 300c is very pretty!). Is that a decent price for one of these?
Legz - Thanks for that. I could be in for that, especially if it's 'only' 2k uptick from mine. Do you know if it's the 300 or the 300c? (the 300c is very pretty!). Is that a decent price for one of these?
No problem.
I'm sure it's the non-C - very little difference as far as I know barring different design faceplate and lack of cast inputs (questionable use anyway and unusable without a full Krell cast pre and source).
On the face of it, £3K isn't cheap but neither is the service it's currently going through - similar to an untried,untested model at £2300 IMHO.
I'm waiting for him to get back to me with full details of what's been done then I can pass on details. I don't personally know him but we've traded power amps and AV processors on another forum without any issues.
I'm sure it's the non-C - very little difference as far as I know barring different design faceplate and lack of cast inputs (questionable use anyway and unusable without a full Krell cast pre and source).
On the face of it, £3K isn't cheap but neither is the service it's currently going through - similar to an untried,untested model at £2300 IMHO.
I'm waiting for him to get back to me with full details of what's been done then I can pass on details. I don't personally know him but we've traded power amps and AV processors on another forum without any issues.
Super, thanks.
To confuse, just had another chat with Choice - they have the BMC CS2 on sale (which is the big brother of the pureamp that I previously auditioned, which did some stuff better than the 300i but other stuff not quite as well so all in all not a slam dunk upgrade decision). He *really* doesn't want to sell it but that would be worth an audition too.
I did ask him if he'd take 3k for the Amatis, of course I got the expected laugh. I don't really have the room for them anyway :P
Confirmed with another local shop that they still to Transparent and also facilitate their upgrade program (get 70% back on stuff you upgrade) so I'm now very interested in that too - lol
To confuse, just had another chat with Choice - they have the BMC CS2 on sale (which is the big brother of the pureamp that I previously auditioned, which did some stuff better than the 300i but other stuff not quite as well so all in all not a slam dunk upgrade decision). He *really* doesn't want to sell it but that would be worth an audition too.
I did ask him if he'd take 3k for the Amatis, of course I got the expected laugh. I don't really have the room for them anyway :P
Confirmed with another local shop that they still to Transparent and also facilitate their upgrade program (get 70% back on stuff you upgrade) so I'm now very interested in that too - lol
That CS2 is a strange looking thing!!
But wouldn't that leave you with 2 preamps again?
If the offer is there for a home trial you'd be daft not to try it - in an age of price matters and everything is bought online it's nice to find old-school dealers prepared to go the extra mile.
Cables.....
Not getting into it lol.
All I'll say is that I've recently added 7 balanced interconnects, a 5M balanced sub cable and 2X 5M lengths of 4X4 speakers cables for the price I paid for one Nordost Red Dawn RCA interconnect 12 years ago.
I'm out of that game
But wouldn't that leave you with 2 preamps again?
If the offer is there for a home trial you'd be daft not to try it - in an age of price matters and everything is bought online it's nice to find old-school dealers prepared to go the extra mile.
Cables.....
Not getting into it lol.
All I'll say is that I've recently added 7 balanced interconnects, a 5M balanced sub cable and 2X 5M lengths of 4X4 speakers cables for the price I paid for one Nordost Red Dawn RCA interconnect 12 years ago.
I'm out of that game
yeah it is lol - but it's configurable so I can by-pass whatever as I need - so I can actually switch between the pre in the dac and the CS2 and see which one I like better! Could plug other stuff into either the dac or the amp; etc. I hope he decides to at least let me have a listen. I just wonder if it has the warmth I like or whether it's just super accurate and cold (maybe I can tune the warmth with the cables). The pureamp was pretty close to the 300i tbh so if the CS2 is head and shoulders above that then certainly an interesting listen at the very least... I think he'll let me know soon if he decides to keep it..
benz0 said:
Without expanding or giving us your thoughts?MR Shaw is a character and one of his stipulations always seems to be missed : the amps have to be operating within their limits.
A 3W-ch valve integrated may sound fine driving a small sealed two-way with a benign load at barely audible background levels but give it a large pair of speakers to drive at 'enjoyable' levels with dipping and rising impedance across the frequency range and things change a little.
Still, some claim that all amplifiers sound the same.
As do all sources.
So spend your money on expensive speakers. That's where the results come from. That is what is most important.
So says Alan Shaw.
Designer and owner of Harbeth speakers...
£11,000 for a pair of his standmounts if you're interested
He's not the only one though:
"
a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own. It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped
"
Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with enough different bits of kit to have a strong opinion either way.
Just being curious, to the OP - what sort of percentage improvement (if it is quantifiable in that way), would you hope/expect to get from the amp upgrade?
"
a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own. It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped
"
Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with enough different bits of kit to have a strong opinion either way.
Just being curious, to the OP - what sort of percentage improvement (if it is quantifiable in that way), would you hope/expect to get from the amp upgrade?
Spumfry said:
He's not the only one though:
"
a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own. It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped
"
Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with enough different bits of kit to have a strong opinion either way.
Just being curious, to the OP - what sort of percentage improvement (if it is quantifiable in that way), would you hope/expect to get from the amp upgrade?
Of course he's not the only and that's probably because your quote above makes perfect sense."
a properly designed amplifier has no sound of its own. It is impossible for two amplifiers to sound different at matched levels if each has high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, low noise floor, and is not clipped
"
Unfortunately I don't have enough experience with enough different bits of kit to have a strong opinion either way.
Just being curious, to the OP - what sort of percentage improvement (if it is quantifiable in that way), would you hope/expect to get from the amp upgrade?
However, what a few seem to miss (and here's a perfect example) is an amplifier that's perfectly capable of driving a nominal 8ohm load is probably fine down to 4ohms.
What happens when that load drops to 3? 2? Or even 1.4 as is the case with some electrostatics?
An anecdote maybe but I had personal experience of a perfectly fine MF amplifier struggling with ML electrostatics - this was a 250W/ch into 8 ohms amp with choke regulation in the power supplies, capable of 450W/ch continuous into 4 ohms that got close to thermal meltdown driving the ML at reasonably loud levels (too loud to talk over but not uncomfortably loud).
All things being equal, competent amps should sound the same. But, not all things are equal and I wouldn't suggest driving the OPs SF with a flea power valve amp or one of the recent chip amps.
legzr1 said:
Without expanding or giving us your thoughts?
MR Shaw is a character and one of his stipulations always seems to be missed : the amps have to be operating within their limits.
A 3W-ch valve integrated may sound fine driving a small sealed two-way with a benign load at barely audible background levels but give it a large pair of speakers to drive at 'enjoyable' levels with dipping and rising impedance across the frequency range and things change a little.
Still, some claim that all amplifiers sound the same.
As do all sources.
So spend your money on expensive speakers. That's where the results come from. That is what is most important.
So says Alan Shaw.
Designer and owner of Harbeth speakers...
£11,000 for a pair of his standmounts if you're interested
I agree, manufacturers, like Alan Shaw, do have an agenda but agree with him that speakers are by far the most important component in the chain. imho speakers influence 65-70% of a systems final sound quality; the room, the speakers' position and the listeners' position in the room are responsible for 25-30%. Amp, source, mains quality and cabling occupy the other 10%.MR Shaw is a character and one of his stipulations always seems to be missed : the amps have to be operating within their limits.
A 3W-ch valve integrated may sound fine driving a small sealed two-way with a benign load at barely audible background levels but give it a large pair of speakers to drive at 'enjoyable' levels with dipping and rising impedance across the frequency range and things change a little.
Still, some claim that all amplifiers sound the same.
As do all sources.
So spend your money on expensive speakers. That's where the results come from. That is what is most important.
So says Alan Shaw.
Designer and owner of Harbeth speakers...
£11,000 for a pair of his standmounts if you're interested
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff