Brian Clough - best manager to ever manage in England?
Discussion
LarsG said:
"Brian Clough - best manager to *EVER* manage in England?"
He didn't win the World Cup did he?
Sir AR was the only one that did so by a small process of elimination.... he is the best there was because no one else got to win it.
Not only that but he got a 3rd place in the UEFA Cup in 1968 which was matched by Terry Venables in 1996.
Now obviously if the header had stated *NEVER* instead of *EVER* you might have a point but one that is probably invalid.
So yes I read it right.
No you really haven't. I'm guessing you mean the European Championships and not the UEFA Cup as well?He didn't win the World Cup did he?
Sir AR was the only one that did so by a small process of elimination.... he is the best there was because no one else got to win it.
Not only that but he got a 3rd place in the UEFA Cup in 1968 which was matched by Terry Venables in 1996.
Now obviously if the header had stated *NEVER* instead of *EVER* you might have a point but one that is probably invalid.
So yes I read it right.
LarsG, the thread title is asking if Brian Clough was the best manager ever to manage in England. Of all the managers to have managed in England, was he the best? Some think so, others have nominated Ferguson, Paisley, Shankley or whoever. All good shouts.
You then said it has to be Sir Alf Ramsey, because he's the only one to have won the World Cup. But he isn't. Scolari also won the world cup, and managed in England. No other world cup winning managers have ever managed in England, just those two.
So that's what I was pointing out, that Sir Alf is not the only one.
You then said it has to be Sir Alf Ramsey, because he's the only one to have won the World Cup. But he isn't. Scolari also won the world cup, and managed in England. No other world cup winning managers have ever managed in England, just those two.
So that's what I was pointing out, that Sir Alf is not the only one.
I'm a Manchester City fan, but SAF is without doubt the finest manager ever.....
His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
Wacky Racer said:
I'm a Manchester City fan, but SAF is without doubt the finest manager ever.....
His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
He was a bully, but his actions at Leeds re the medals are similar in way to all round nice guy and player's manager Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool. He's told all the current players they can't touch the "This Is Anfield" sign on the way onto the pitch until they've deserved it by winning something. I'm expecting a slew of pics on social media early next week!His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
Pothole said:
He was a bully, but his actions at Leeds re the medals are similar in way to all round nice guy and player's manager Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool. He's told all the current players they can't touch the "This Is Anfield" sign on the way onto the pitch until they've deserved it by winning something. I'm expecting a slew of pics on social media early next week!
Don't think winning on a scratchcard counts 
Wacky Racer said:
I'm a Manchester City fan, but SAF is without doubt the finest manager ever.....
His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
Whilst i agree that Fergie was the greatest i dont think you can belittle Clough's achievements what he did with Derby and particularly Forest couldn't have been done by any other manager imo. His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
As for being a bully you trying to suggest Fergie wasnt? or Revie or Jose etc etc.
Ascayman said:
Wacky Racer said:
I'm a Manchester City fan, but SAF is without doubt the finest manager ever.....
His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
Whilst i agree that Fergie was the greatest i dont think you can belittle Clough's achievements what he did with Derby and particularly Forest couldn't have been done by any other manager imo. His trophy haul says all you need to know.
I'll argue that Clough wasn't that great, his man management skills were pretty poor, 44 days at Leeds in 1974, on the first day told them to throw all their medals in the bin as they won them by cheating....lol!...what a way to endear yourself.
Still, he came away with a fortune when he was sacked.
He was a bully...…"Come in my office, we will discuss your issue for twenty minutes then decide I was right".....
This is good viewing:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxsRt2yG8Es
As for being a bully you trying to suggest Fergie wasnt? or Revie or Jose etc etc.
I'm not knocking Clough, he was a great manager, but he had his faults and being wrong wasn't one of them...
Honourable mention for Sir Bobby Robson
13 years at Ipswich, twice runners up to Liverpool who were the best team in the world at the time, but also won the FA Cup and UEFA Cup.
League winner in Netherlands, Portugal and cups in those and in Spain.
1446 games and 49.65% win ratio.
Then obviously Gazza and the tears etc
Sir Alf Ramsay (another Ipswich manager) took us from third tier to top tier then won world cup, decent.
13 years at Ipswich, twice runners up to Liverpool who were the best team in the world at the time, but also won the FA Cup and UEFA Cup.
League winner in Netherlands, Portugal and cups in those and in Spain.
1446 games and 49.65% win ratio.
Then obviously Gazza and the tears etc
Sir Alf Ramsay (another Ipswich manager) took us from third tier to top tier then won world cup, decent.
Clough was certainly a bully. Not averse to making players run into nettles.
Chinned a supporter who ran on the pitch
Took on Roy Keane and won...
Wound up Mohammed Ali on Parkinson.
Sadly declined into drink, but as a motivator and galvinising force for a regional club, he was very impressive.
I was a Birmingham fan (as my Dad grew up there and supported them) but when Clough bought Trevor Francis my favourite player for the first £1million transfer, I became a Forest fan, and have been ever since !
Gargamel said:
I was a Birmingham fan (as my Dad grew up there and supported them) but when Clough bought Trevor Francis my favourite player for the first £1million transfer, I became a Forest fan, and have been ever since !
How does a human being change football teams? I just can't get my head around that concept. TwigtheWonderkid said:
How does a human being change football teams? I just can't get my head around that concept.
So for one thing I was like seven or eight at the time, and Trevor Francis was absolutely the best football player I had seen. So obviously I just carried on watching him, and then we starting winning stuff, so that made it kind of easy ! dirty boy said:
Honourable mention for Sir Bobby Robson
13 years at Ipswich, twice runners up to Liverpool who were the best team in the world at the time, but also won the FA Cup and UEFA Cup.
League winner in Netherlands, Portugal and cups in those and in Spain.
1446 games and 49.65% win ratio.
Then obviously Gazza and the tears etc
Sir Alf Ramsay (another Ipswich manager) took us from third tier to top tier then won world cup, decent.
They were ok I suppose 13 years at Ipswich, twice runners up to Liverpool who were the best team in the world at the time, but also won the FA Cup and UEFA Cup.
League winner in Netherlands, Portugal and cups in those and in Spain.
1446 games and 49.65% win ratio.
Then obviously Gazza and the tears etc
Sir Alf Ramsay (another Ipswich manager) took us from third tier to top tier then won world cup, decent.
coyb!Wacky Racer said:
Fergie was very definitely a bully, but it got results, however Revie wasn't, in fact he was the exact opposite, his players loved, not feared him.
I'm not knocking Clough, he was a great manager, but he had his faults and being wrong wasn't one of them...
As a Leeds fan I remember Clough being recruited to replace Don Revie and it was very much a case of wrong approach! He'd done nothing but criticise that squad of players and, although some of his comments were perhaps justified, you didn't need to be Einstein to work out he needed to get a majority of them on-side if he was going to have any chance of making a success of things at Leeds. However, in reality he seemed to do the exact opposite and from day one just drove an even bigger wedge between himself and the very players on whom his own success depended. I'm not knocking Clough, he was a great manager, but he had his faults and being wrong wasn't one of them...
The irony is that in some ways Clough was what Leeds needed at the time; many of that Revie team were past their best, some new blood was definitely required and with a different approach I think Cloughie could have been the man for the job (witness what he achieved at Forest from a far lower starting point).
So yes he was a great manager but his 44 days at Leeds weren't his finest hour (although the pay-out from when he was sacked probably set him up for life!).
Gargamel said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
How does a human being change football teams? I just can't get my head around that concept.
So for one thing I was like seven or eight at the time, and Trevor Francis was absolutely the best football player I had seen. So obviously I just carried on watching him, You support a team, you love the star player, he leaves, you stick with the team and immediately hate the player for his disloyalty, and wish nothing but untold misery upon him. Those are the rules.
V8covin said:
Actually Clough was pretty mediocre without Taylor alongside him.....as was Taylor without Clough.
More than the sum of the parts
There's definitely some mileage in this. Once they'd gone full divorce, neither pulled up the kind of stumps they did together.More than the sum of the parts
As much as I dislike old bacon face, he did manage to do it with a small club as well as a big one and was clever enough to reinvent those around him, both in terms of players and backroom staff.
However, part of me still wonders if a part of this is about getting unruly, bang average or even dogs
t players to perform way above their station. Fergie did manage it, but in absolute terms, I suspect he's not alone. IMHO, that's as much of a sign of a top dollar manager as dealing with egos and a big budget. Probably, well definitely, controversial, but Jose doesn't seem to have done a terrible lot since moderately wealthy Porto when times are tough, the squad is a bit average and the money isn't there, for example.
DukeDickson said:
Probably, well definitely, controversial, but Jose doesn't seem to have done a terrible lot since moderately wealthy Porto when times are tough, the squad is a bit average and the money isn't there, for example.
Inter Milan? He won the CL for the first time in 50 years, with a squad that Rafa nearly got relegated with the following season.Back to back PL wins for Chelsea, first in 50 years.
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