Redundancy Question

[sammatty]

I am hoping for some of the collective wisdom of Pistonheads.

My wife is an employed hair dresser (salon based) paid through PAYE, she has 14 years of service at the salon however has never had a paper contract. The business is run by a sole trader (not limited). Wife currently works part-time 2 days per week.

She received a call from her boss last night, he would like all employees of the business to move to being self employed on a rent-a-chair basis. This move is to commence from 1st January 2020. Her boss does not believe that redundancy is applicable.

My view is that she is currently employed and must be terminated to move to self-employed (she is not resigning), therefore statutory redundancy would be applicable, also because he wants self-employment to start on 1st Jan, some notice will be due. With her length of service redundancy would be 12 weeks and notice a further 12 weeks. Whilst her weekly pay is relatively low, 24 weeks of pay is a good sum.

My questions are, can an employer force an employee to go self-employed without 1st terminating employment and what level of consultation is required (business has 3 employees).

I realise there will then be a number of challenges ref self-employment, self assessment, pension etc...

[Dixy]

I have never understood how salons get away with this rent a chair as being self employed.

[bad company]

I very much doubt that the salon owner can get away with changing your wife’s employment just like that.

I’d advise your Mrs to call a local employment lawyer such as:-

https://hatchbrenner.co.uk/people/carla-gowing

[xjay1337]

It is a bit of a scam!

Sounds pretty clear cut to me, but I am not a lawyer.

I would imagine lack of paper contract (or any contract) is a problem.

But if they are on PAYE , I guess hourtly / salaried , then it's pretty obvious they are in employment.....

[vaud]

xjay1337 said:

I would imagine lack of paper contract (or any contract) is a problem.

I'm sure BV will be along soon, but I am pretty sure the lack of a paper contract is not an issue as the length of time and how she is paid will be the indicator for a contract, rather than needing a document.

IANAL.

[sammatty]

xjay1337 said:

I would imagine lack of paper contract (or any contract) is a problem.

But if they are on PAYE , I guess hourtly / salaried , then it's pretty obvious they are in employment.....

She has P60s to substantiate all 14 years of employment, I assume that she would have an implied contact with statutory T&Cs.

[bitcrusher]

Lack of paper contract is irrelevant. Her terms of employment are whatever she's been doing for 14 years unless the business asked her to do something differently eg start at 10am instead of 9am.

Does she currently have paid sick and annual leave? If so whichever way you slice it she's an employee and all normal laws apply. +1 lawyer up if they won't play ball

[bad company]

xjay1337 said:

It is a bit of a scam!

Sounds pretty clear cut to me, but I am not a lawyer.

I would imagine lack of paper contract (or any contract) is a problem.

But if they are on PAYE , I guess hourtly / salaried , then it's pretty obvious they are in employment.....

The onus is on the employer to supply a contract of employment. I don’t see how the employer’s failure to comply with this could harm the op’s wife’s situation.

It sounds clear cut to me and I suspect that the employer will probably also end up paying both sides legal fees. I’m amazed that an employer thinks they can just do this ‘on the hoof’.

I strongly advise speaking with a specialist employment solicitor such as the lady I suggested.

[sammatty]

bitcrusher said:

Lack of paper contract is irrelevant. Her terms of employment are whatever she's been doing for 14 years unless the business asked her to do something differently eg start at 10am instead of 9am.

Does she currently have paid sick and annual leave? If so whichever way you slice it she's an employee and all normal laws apply. +1 lawyer up if they won't play ball

Yes, paid leave, statutory sick and mat leave, plus an employers pension scheme!

[cbmotorsport]

Unfortunately if you fought it and he made her redundant and paid up as he should, your wife is unlikely to be offered the option to rent a seat is she? You may get a lump sum, but she may lose her long term income. Wrong as it is, that may be a reality.

[vaud]

cbmotorsport said:

Unfortunately if you fought it and he made her redundant and paid up as he should, your wife is unlikely to be offered the option to rent a seat is she? You may get a lump sum, but she may lose her long term income. Wrong as it is, that may be a reality.

True, but 24 weeks pay gives a lot of time to find a new job.

Also if she accepts and moves to rent a seat, there is a risk that the new terms would allow the owner to cancel the rental.

[bad company]

cbmotorsport said:

Unfortunately if you fought it and he made her redundant and paid up as he should, your wife is unlikely to be offered the option to rent a seat is she? You may get a lump sum, but she may lose her long term income. Wrong as it is, that may be a reality.

How hard can it be to rent a chair in a hairdressers? Bear in mind that if the op’s wife contacts her existing customers they’ll probably follow and there’s nothing the previous salon will be able to do about it.

[Durzel]

bad company said:

How hard can it be to rent a chair in a hairdressers? Bear in mind that if the op’s wife contacts her existing customers they’ll probably follow and there’s nothing the previous salon will be able to do about it.

Exactly. Wouldn’t be remotely difficult to find another salon to do rent a chair at, with the 24 weeks redundancy as a cushion.

[mgv8]

So the question is what does she want out of this?

[cbmotorsport]

Durzel said:

bad company said:

How hard can it be to rent a chair in a hairdressers? Bear in mind that if the op’s wife contacts her existing customers they’ll probably follow and there’s nothing the previous salon will be able to do about it.

Exactly. Wouldn’t be remotely difficult to find another salon to do rent a chair at, with the 24 weeks redundancy as a cushion.

Sure, many people wouldn't want the change after 14 years though. Everyone's different.

[vaud]

Durzel said:

Exactly. Wouldn’t be remotely difficult to find another salon to do rent a chair at, with the 24 weeks redundancy as a cushion.

I don;t think you can say that without more information. It would depend on where in the country, if she has transport, proximity for school pickups, etc.

[Jasandjules]

She has been made redundant...

[Drihump Trolomite]

Lots of heartache ahead for little reward

Salon is not somwehere people go to, they go to their stylist. Get your wife to make the leap to doing home visits - friend of ours did this, she loves the freedom it gives her. She got a contract with a local retirement home too, loads more options than renting a chair = all risk and no reward.

Still seek the correct recourse but in the mean time look into alternate route for her. Speak to proper legal types, it sounds like constructive dismissal if she's left no choice but thats just my Jeremy Kyle opinion and its worth st.

[sammatty]

Drihump Trolomite said:

Lots of heartache ahead for little reward

Salon is not somwehere people go to, they go to their stylist. Get your wife to make the leap to doing home visits - friend of ours did this, she loves the freedom it gives her. She got a contract with a local retirement home too, loads more options than renting a chair = all risk and no reward.

Still seek the correct recourse but in the mean time look into alternate route for her. Speak to proper legal types, it sounds like constructive dismissal if she's left no choice but thats just my Jeremy Kyle opinion and its worth st.

It has always been somewhere in the plan for us use some of our home as a salon or for her to go mobile. I think this is the push needed after 14 years, we are in a fortunate position that her earnings are not essential to our finances.

[sammatty]

vaud said:

I don;t think you can say that without more information. It would depend on where in the country, if she has transport, proximity for school pickups, etc.

Norfolk based (just outside of Norwich), with own transport, currently working 2 Fri/Sat, 2 year old currently in daycare Fridays only. Likely that the freedom of being mobile (or home salon) would be a benefit to future work/life balance.