High Street chains favouring UK employees

[R Mutt]

The proposed changes to immigration rules and claims by Priti Patel that these will see millions of jobs filled by Brits, and Farage's message to companies that this is the end of cheap labour got me thinking about who, in terms of nationality, really does and will do which job.

The like of Costa and Pret immediately came to mind as employing largely staff from Eastern Europe, in stark contrast to Sports Direct and Greggs, who in my experience are staffed by younger British workers.

What drives this? All of the above being British companies, having an international cache can surely be removed from the equation, as can the nature of the contracts, all being relatively 'flexiible' or 'zero hours', and all have similar tax liabilities or at least none minimise this through offshore channels entities. Will Brits be making coffees in the near future?

[hutchst]

Do they all hire their workers as employees on the books, or do some outsource to labour hire agents and don't hire direct? Are some of them franchises?

[John Locke]

When the apparently limitless supply of exploitable labour from the EU dries up, employers will have no choice but to offer pay which reflects the real cost of living in Britain, to the benefit of the indigenous, and the immigrants who choose to remain. Not before time; 20 -30 year olds have had a rubbish employment deal over the past 15 - 20 years.

[Bullett]

I think it's cultural to a degree.
Service (table waiting) jobs are looked down on by a lot of brits, its seen as a min wage, temp until you get something better type job. I understand that waiter is seen much more as a vocation in Europe, especially in more foody cultures like France/Spain/Italy.

[R Mutt]

Bullett said:

I think it's cultural to a degree.
Service (table waiting) jobs are looked down on by a lot of brits, its seen as a min wage, temp until you get something better type job. I understand that waiter is seen much more as a vocation in Europe, especially in more foody cultures like France/Spain/Italy.

Except the people working in French or Italian restaurants for example aren't from France or Italy. At least not in London.

[Bullett]

You need to go to better quality restaurants! High end places are very well populated with French staff even if the food is not primarily French.

But I agree in general, as why would you move from somewhere your profession has a bit of respect to somewhere that has none for a basic wage. I was proposing that as the reason why Brits seem to do shop work over service based work. Not that the French are coming over and taking the jobs.

[R Mutt]

Bullett said:

You need to go to better quality restaurants! High end places are very well populated with French staff even if the food is not primarily French.

But I agree in general, as why would you move from somewhere your profession has a bit of respect to somewhere that has none for a basic wage. I was proposing that as the reason why Brits seem to do shop work over service based work. Not that the French are coming over and taking the jobs.

Yes it does vary by quality of restaurant but you've given me more chains to add the list of British employers of largely Eastern European staff. Zizzi, Prezzo. Ask, Pizza Express, Cafe Rouge.

[Coolbananas]

John Locke said:

When the apparently limitless supply of exploitable labour from the EU dries up, employers will have no choice but to offer pay which reflects the real cost of living in Britain, to the benefit of the indigenous, and the immigrants who choose to remain. Not before time; 20 -30 year olds have had a rubbish employment deal over the past 15 - 20 years.

Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.

Good times ahead!

[Murph7355]

R Mutt said:

....

What drives this?....

In the sort of places you refer to... In most places....

£

I suspect the demographics you refer to are more likely driven by your locale than any major cultural aspects. That and the £ people are prepared to accept.

[rxe]

Coolbananas said:

Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.

Good times ahead!

No one is thrilled about paying more, but we've been structurally paying too little for a long time. We now have large areas of the economy that are minimum wage - think about it - we are creating jobs where the government has to mandate the pay (and subsidise it) because that job has so little value.

It's utterly mad that I can get a pair of AA batteries delivered to my house for free, at a price lower than any shop can compete with. Some bloke has driven a van for a few minutes from his last stop to my house, and his service has literally cost me less than nothing.

Employers will have to automate, and they will have to complete for low skilled workers. Those of us who've been making a killing from cheap prices will have to pay more. Those of us who've been screwed for the last 20 years will get more. Outside remainer echo chambers, this is what Brexit was all about..... We may well have fewer coffee shops. That's also a good thing.

[Candellara]

We're in warehousing / e-commerce and 95% of our warehouse / fulfilment staff are Eastern European sourced via temp agencies.

Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.

We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).

Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)

This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.

I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 13:38

[rxe]

Candellara said:

We're in warehousing / e-commerce and 95% of our warehouse / fulfilment staff are Eastern European sourced via temp agencies.

Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.

We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).

Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)

This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.

I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 13:38

Amazon have managed to automate packing trainers....

[Sticks.]

Candellara said:

.....We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible.....

Perhaps the zero hours is the problem as much as anything? Anyone with a family or rent on that money is likely to be on Tax/Universal Credit, and from what I saw on TV the other day the two don't work together at all well.

[Oakey]

Candellara said:

We're in warehousing / e-commerce and 95% of our warehouse / fulfilment staff are Eastern European sourced via temp agencies.

Our daily work loads vary enormously so we have a "core crew" that are employed by us on a full time basis and all additional staff are provided by the agencies. This number can vary from 1 per day up to 30 per day wholly dependant on workload. The agency fee is circa £12.20 per hour and the staff receive min wage.

We've tried to bypass the agencies by recruiting temp (zero hour contract staff) directly with local advertising offering £9.50 per hour from any age group. It's impossible as the only applicants are the English f**k-wits who don't really want to work and we normally find their work ethic so poor we kick them out after a few hours (that's if they're not caught smoking in the toilets beforehand).

Our process is impossible to automate, is marginally costed and relies on cheap, low skilled labour in abundance. If I make the call to the agency today for 20 staff tomorrow - we'll probably manage to get 15 (there's already a shortage of available Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Russian). Maybe 1 of those might be a British worker. Priti Patel is living in dreamland if she thinks that the 8 odd million Brits not currently working wish to come & work on a zero hour contract packing items like trainers for £9 per hour :-)

This of course is the scenario now - not 2021. We're seeing a lot on EU unskilled labour now returning to the EU - mainly Germany. Boris says it's time to wean ourselves off of cheap labour. Frankly impossible in many industries so it's looking highly likely that our warehousing & packing will be moved into Europe as of 2021. The EU is a much larger market for us than the UK so it makes good sense anyhow. The admin / sales function will remain in the UK for the time being but I anticipate that we'll also move these roles too.

I'd guess that if this immigration policy sticks (and I don't think it will as they'll have to make so many concessions to agriculture, hospitality etc) that the majority of 3PL, warehousing, logistics, fulfilment etc will have to be moved into the EU. A lot of it is anyhow with people like New Balance opting to have a Dutch distribution centre which fulfil all UK orders

Edited by Candellara on Thursday 20th February 13:38

Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?

[Uggers]

Coolbananas said:

Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.

Good times ahead!

I have no problem paying extra on food/services if I'm not subsidising the workshy who do the bare minimum to qualify for in work benefits.and I include my feckless sister in this lot.

If you are working there should be no need to be claiming benefits. It's a company subsidy courtesy of us the tax payer. But some seem to think that this source of money is endless.......or free.

[Mrr T]

Oakey said:

Why do you think Eastern Europeans are so happy to come here and do this mind numbing work for such low pay instead of doing the same job back home?

They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job.

[yellowjack]

Coolbananas said:

John Locke said:

When the apparently limitless supply of exploitable labour from the EU dries up, employers will have no choice but to offer pay which reflects the real cost of living in Britain, to the benefit of the indigenous, and the immigrants who choose to remain. Not before time; 20 -30 year olds have had a rubbish employment deal over the past 15 - 20 years.

Absolutely! I can't wait to read about the lazy and feckless scroungers who have become so abundant in the decades Post-WW2 thanks to entitled Labour policies now happily getting off their butts and working. And for a decent wage, the cost of which is then passed onto you, the Customer, who will no doubt gladly pay the extra and not whinge one bit about the cost of living having gone up.

Good times ahead!

I'm cool with the prospect of eating out becoming unaffordable to me, if it means my kids, both of whom have been to university, don't have to put up with stty jobs for poor wages. I'd happily put up with doing a stty job if the wages compensated for it. I'd put up with low wages for a job that I enjoyed doing and was beneficial to society. But the sad fact is that high earners have too long looked down their noses at those who empty their bins and scrub their faeces from the back of the WC pan. A lot of these "low skilled" jobs are essential, but the employees are not anywhere near adequately remunerated. If that is the cost of new immigration policies, blame the Brexiteers. We're about to get what we are assured we voted for in a fair and free democratic process. "Be careful what you wish for" has long been standard issue wisdom, but still people fall foul of the "law of unintended consequences".

I'll let you know any information I get drip-fed about whether retail employers really do favour indigenous workers or not. Son No 1 is currently employed in the fresh produce department of a leading supermarket chain, having failed to graduate, and he's dragging around 4 years worth of student debt, not paying a penny back due to earning too little. Son No 2 graduated, but is having an interview for a position as an 'online shopper' at another leading supermarket chain as a "filler" job while he waits to hear the result of an application to go abroad to teach English. Both boys are alarmingly intelligent, willing to learn, and willing to work. Both have struggled to find work in the past in jobs where foreign nationals with uncheckable qualifications and references have seemingly strolled into appointments. Make of that what you will. I'm not against foreign staff in UK jobs, but I really do worry about the future of the care system in particular, if we have to do without those foreign workers. The owner, manager, and I'd estimate around 80% of the staff that I've met at my mother-in-law's care home are non-native. Many of them struggle with English, and I'm concerned that vulnerable and confused residents aren't always able to have their needs understood and met. Of course it would be better to have the home staffed by caring individuals with English to a 'first language' standard. But if those foreign staff leave in droves who will train British kids to replace them? And will British kids even want to fulfil roles that involve "washing, drying, and applying medicated cream to the skin under Mrs Fotheringill's breasts" or bathing some poor old doubly incontinent soul who shat themself during the night?

Some of what I've typed will no doubt look like it contradicts itself. So be it. For too long in this country we have rewarded those who allegedly "create wealth" by gambling on markets, and those who do important work, like actually making and selling stuff, or saving lives, and making the world a nicer place by caring for the vulnerable and cleaning up after the idle rich? They get held down in low wages by those at the top. I'm no tinfoil hatted loony, I'm not a "property is theft" nutter. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing a fairer distribution of this illusory "created wealth", because without the cleaners and the bus drivers and the shop workers, those who sit in the offices shooting cuffs to flash their latest Rolex watch, watching numbers on screens rise and fall like a demented rollercoaster, simply wouldn't be in a position to make their millions. People just want a fair deal, and if the jobs on offer looked like a fair exchange of labour for wages, then we'd never have needed to import such a large percentage of our workforce in the first place.

On an unrelated note, we're also currently experiencing the fall-out in the manufacturing sector of the folly of outsourcing component manufacture and supply to the Far East. Eventually it had to come to this though. You can't base the economy of an international trading nation on outsourced manufacturing indefinitely. All the beardstroking in the world about how great it is that the UK produces far fewer CO2 emissions per head of population is of no use if the assembly lines of JCB and JLR among others have ground to a halt because of one or two seemingly innocuous but absolutely vital "Widgets" buried deep within their products. But as ever, the ability to pay less for a product through lower wages abroad, and the opportunity to kill off yet another pesky "union baron" and his troublesome minions was too good an opportunity to miss. All of the things that put the 'Great' in Great Britain seem to have supined themselves to foreign nations, rolled over, and played dead. The merchant navy, manufacturing, infrastructure development and construction? All we ever hear is how this plant's steel can be made more cheaply in China, or that company's cars can be assembled abroad and imported at lower unit cost than building them at Dagenham, Southampton, Speke or Abingdon. And now even those plants that kept final assembly in the UK are struggling to keep production lines open due to shortages of components from abroad. Tell me this is "progress"? Because it doesn't look that way to me...

[Candellara]

rxe said:

Amazon have managed to automate packing trainers....

No doubt, but we're an SME and one minute we're packing trainers (in very low quantities), the next it might me a mug, or a book-mark etc

Without mass economies of scale, we'd never see an ROI

[Sophisticated Sarah]

I can see why British don’t want to work in pubs/restaurants. It’s very hard work at the busy places, so why bother for minimum wage? Might as well stand around in SportDirect and get commission on your sales and work nicer hours.

[Oakey]

Mrr T said:

They do it because the work is really available. Interview today start tomorrow. So they can improve their English, get some money to be able to rent, and look for another and better paying job.

Meanwhile, in Poland there are almost 2million Ukranians doing the jobs that those 'lazy bone idle' Polish don't want to do; seasonal jobs, cleaning jobs, uber / deliveroo type things.