Explain Water divining

[Halmyre]

peterperkins said:

I have to say I am a total skeptic when it comes to stuff like this.
I pride myself on having a logical scientific mind not easily fooled.

Anyway to cut a long story short had a 150m long 2m deep foul water drain run under a field with a break. I get the local drain chaps in they have a go with machine etc and know roughly the direction it goes.

I go into make them a cup of tea and am astounded when i come back out to see them wandering around the field with divining sticks. I'm thinking wtf I paying £150 an hour to watch this mumbo jumbo.

They quickly settle on the trouble spot with their sticks. 5 minutes later with me watching incredulously the jcb has dug down and they are right on top of the pipe fault, it had slipped a collar, dropped down and was leaking like a sieve..

What can i say, they dug one hole only in exactly the right spot after divining. They just said it felt like the place.

I could have made an educated guess myself with knowing the direction etc but it was quite surreal.

Anyway I'm still skeptical but was happy with the result...
Def some real testing required

While you were making a cup of tea they quickly located the break with an acoustic detector, then, when you returned, they were just winding you up.

[Trophy Husband]

It works. Well at least for me. I work in construction and once found an 18 inch main in the middle of a field using 2 bic pen sleeves and L shaped used welding rods. I was 12 inches out when we dug down. FACT.

[Zod]

I wonder how many of the people posting that water divining works are atheists.

[Monty Python]

Zod said:

I wonder how many of the people posting that water divining works are atheists.

I don't see the link there...what has the existence/non-existence of a got to do with it?

[Zod]

Monty Python said:

Zod said:

I wonder how many of the people posting that water divining works are atheists.

I don't see the link there...what has the existence/non-existence of a got to do with it?

I would be interested to know whether there are people who don't believe in one aspect of the supernatural but do believe in another and to understand how they rationalise it.

[Derek Smith]

peterperkins said:

I have to say I am a total skeptic when it comes to stuff like this.
I pride myself on having a logical scientific mind not easily fooled.

Anyway to cut a long story short had a 150m long 2m deep foul water drain run under a field with a break. I get the local drain chaps in they have a go with machine etc and know roughly the direction it goes.

I go into make them a cup of tea and am astounded when i come back out to see them wandering around the field with divining sticks. I'm thinking wtf I paying £150 an hour to watch this mumbo jumbo.

They quickly settle on the trouble spot with their sticks. 5 minutes later with me watching incredulously the jcb has dug down and they are right on top of the pipe fault, it had slipped a collar, dropped down and was leaking like a sieve..

What can i say, they dug one hole only in exactly the right spot after divining. They just said it felt like the place.

I could have made an educated guess myself with knowing the direction etc but it was quite surreal.

Anyway I'm still skeptical but was happy with the result...
Def some real testing required

This is what I meant by keeping an open mind.

I don't believe in water diving. It is, I think, nonsense. If there was some energy given off by water in dirt I feel certain that I would have noticed it when I was a kid making mud pies.

However, there are two things that I believe in that are more certain than water diving being a myth: 1/ I might be wrong (except in this statement of course), and 2/ One should keep an open mind as anyone else might be wrong. Question everything is a bold statement that is difficult to follow, but the effort is probably worthwhile.

[RobM77]

I always keep an open mind too, but you can't deny this:

Monty Python said:

Odd how no dowser managed to win James Randi's million dollar challenge..

[dickymint]

RobM77 said:

I always keep an open mind too, but you can't deny this:

Monty Python said:

Odd how no dowser managed to win James Randi's million dollar challenge..

It seems that only four water diviners were ever tested for the prize which at the time was only 10k dollars........

Example of a test (dowsing)
In 1979, Randi tested four people in Italy for dowsing ability (Mr. Fontana, Dr. Borga, Mr. Stanziola, and Mr. Senatore). The prize at the time was $10,000. The conditions were that a 10 meter by 10 meter test area would be used. There would be water supply and a reservoir just outside the test area. There would be three plastic pipes running underground from the source to the reservoir along different concealed paths. Each pipe would pass through the test area by entering at some point on an edge and exiting at some point on an edge. A pipe would not cross itself but it might cross others. The pipes were 3 centimeters in diameter and were buried 50 centimeters below ground. Valves would select which of the pipes water was running through, and only one would be selected at a time. At least 5 liters per second of water would flow through the selected pipe. The dowser must first check the area to see if there is any natural water or anything else that would interfere with the test, and that would be marked. Additionally, the dowser must demonstrate that the dowsing reaction works on an exposed pipe with the water running. Then one of the three pipes would be selected randomly for each trial. The dowser would place ten to one hundred pegs in the ground along the path he or she traces as the path of the active pipe. Two-thirds of the pegs placed by the dowser must be within 10 centimeters of the center of the pipe being traced for the trial to be a success. Three trials would be done for the test of each dowser and the dowser must pass two of the three trials to pass the test. A lawyer was present, in possession of Randi's $10,000 check. If a claimant were successful, the lawyer would give him or her the check. If none were successful, the check would be returned to Randi.
All of the dowsers agreed with the conditions of the test and stated that they felt able to perform the test that day and that the water flow was sufficient. Before the test they were asked how sure they were that they would succeed. All said either "99 percent" or "100 percent" certain. They were asked what they would conclude if the water flow was 90 degrees from what they thought it was and all said that it was impossible. After the test they were asked how confident they were that they had passed the test. Three answered "100 percent" and one answered that he had not completed the test.
When all of the tests were over and the location of the pipes was revealed, none of the dowsers had passed the test. Dr. Borga had placed his markers carefully, but the nearest was a full 8 feet from the water pipe. Borga said, "We are lost", but within two minutes he started blaming his failure on many things such as sunspots and geomagnetic variables. Two of the dowsers thought they had found natural water before the test started, but disagreed with each other about where it was, as well as with the ones who found no natural water.[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_P...

Personally I think that dowsing is possible (within limits) but it aint magic or supernatural. Think back to times before magnetism was understood but the compass was in use!

[RobM77]

Interesting, thanks. The thing is, for it to be real it needs to stand up to a scientific test. For sure, we may not have a theory or even a hypothesis explaining the mechanism, but we must be able to statistically show that divining is reliably possible in a repeatable manner, and nobody's showed that so far. It's the same for Reiki, Homeopathy, Crystal Balls etc - none have been shown to be real effects that one can measure. I even read about an experiment on prayer once to see if it helped sick people in hospitals

[deckster]

dickymint said:

Personally I think that dowsing is possible (within limits) but it aint magic or supernatural. Think back to times before magnetism was understood but the compass was in use!

I don't get it. You've just posted a good solid experiment that totally failed to demonstrate any hint that dowsing works. Four people who, presumably think they are pretty good at dowsing, and when challenged to do so, totally failed to produce anything approaching a positive result. You have, unless you're holding something back, seen no evidence of any form that dowsing is any better than chance.

And yet you think that it's "possible".

Why? In what way is water dowsing more "possible" than it is "possible" that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden? Or that there is, in fact, an invisible unicorn sitting on your shoulder right now?

[Zod]

dickymint said:

Personally I think that dowsing is possible (within limits) but it aint magic or supernatural. Think back to times before magnetism was understood but the compass was in use!

Er, but anyone could use a compass. It was observable and easily to reproduce.Unlike divining, it didn't require a mystical gift.

[RobM77]

The key here is the difference between understanding something and it being observable, repeatable and statistically significant. For example, we may not know what Dark Matter is, but we can certainly observe its effects and its effects are well understood. Water Divining has, as far as I know, never been proven in an experiment, even though, like dark matter, the effect we're looking for is well understood (repeatable detection of water that's out of visual line of sight). As with anything in life, I am sceptical until it can be proven, but I won't be holding my breath!

[Einion Yrth]

RobM77 said:

For example, we may not know what Dark Matter is, but we can certainly observe its effects and its effects are well understood.

It may not even exist, and it certainly isn't well understood. Adding "stuff" on an ad hoc basis to explain away annoying observations is not a good way to do science.

Condider this and explore further. Note that I certainly do not endorse McCulloch's theory as of yet, but I find it more attractive than "adding just enough phlogiston to explain observations."

[RobM77]

Einion Yrth said:

RobM77 said:

For example, we may not know what Dark Matter is, but we can certainly observe its effects and its effects are well understood.

It may not even exist, and it certainly isn't well understood. Adding "stuff" on an ad hoc basis to explain away annoying observations is not a good way to do science.

Condider this and explore further. Note that I certainly do not endorse McCulloch's theory as of yet, but I find it more attractive than "adding just enough phlogiston to explain observations."

Perhaps a bad analogy then You get my point though? If anyone thinks water divining works, but it doesn't work in controlled scientific trials, either the trials are wrong, or people's reckoning is wrong, and my vote would go to the latter.

[Cerbhd]

All I can say is that I can bend 2 pieces of wire coat hanger and walk across my garden to find the water main and soakaway. I was very sceptical when I saw it done first and amazed when I did it myself

[dickymint]

Zod said:

dickymint said:

Personally I think that dowsing is possible (within limits) but it aint magic or supernatural. Think back to times before magnetism was understood but the compass was in use!

Er, but anyone could use a compass. It was observable and easily to reproduce.Unlike divining, it didn't require a mystical gift.

Um, back in the day the "compass" was totally magical and a very closely guarded secret

[RobM77]

dickymint said:

Zod said:

dickymint said:

Personally I think that dowsing is possible (within limits) but it aint magic or supernatural. Think back to times before magnetism was understood but the compass was in use!

Er, but anyone could use a compass. It was observable and easily to reproduce.Unlike divining, it didn't require a mystical gift.

Um, back in the day the "compass" was totally magical and a very closely guarded secret

The difference is that a compass can find north repeatedly under scientifically controlled trials. Water diviners can't find water under such circumstances. This result is independent of any understanding of how it works.

[Halb]

Magic is a word that means you don't know how something works.

[Toaster]

Halb said:

Magic is a word that means you don't know how something works.

Arthur C Clarke once wrote: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Interesting article in the New Scientist: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17532-why-d...