Boeing Starliner
Discussion
Boeing have released footage from inside the Starliner capsule during its abortive mission.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4CeipvvYb4
I like their "zero-g indicator" (Snoopy). It's a bit of a tradition, started by those notorious big softies, the Russians. Yuri Gagarin had a little toy doll with him to float around the capsule on the first manned space flight in 1961.
And here's a tour & Q&A at the Starliner facility at the Kennedy Space Center. It's next door to the big Vertical Assembly Building. The Starliner capsule is now back there for processing. It's designed for 10 flights apparently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4CeipvvYb4
I like their "zero-g indicator" (Snoopy). It's a bit of a tradition, started by those notorious big softies, the Russians. Yuri Gagarin had a little toy doll with him to float around the capsule on the first manned space flight in 1961.
And here's a tour & Q&A at the Starliner facility at the Kennedy Space Center. It's next door to the big Vertical Assembly Building. The Starliner capsule is now back there for processing. It's designed for 10 flights apparently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&...
https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/boeing-reports-a...
$410m for one missed launch if NASA do not sign it off?
I thought the USA going to the ISS was supposed to be cheap compared to the Russians?
I'd be interested to know the break down of this cost. Sounds like Boeing are just shoving out huge numbers now for everything on losses they have sustained with Max 737.
The Starliner needs another perfect launch to the ISS to be signed off. This reminds me of Apollo 1 etc. $$ should not get in the way of lives.
Gandahar said:
https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/boeing-reports-a...
$410m for one missed launch if NASA do not sign it off?
I thought the USA going to the ISS was supposed to be cheap compared to the Russians?
I'd be interested to know the break down of this cost. Sounds like Boeing are just shoving out huge numbers now for everything on losses they have sustained with Max 737.
The Starliner needs another perfect launch to the ISS to be signed off. This reminds me of Apollo 1 etc. $$ should not get in the way of lives.
Note that is a charge against their own accounts, not one they expect NASA to pay - though Boeing are definitely the more expensive of the two CCP providers with price per seat expected to be around $90M ( it's a 7 seater ) compared to $55M per seat for SpaceX$410m for one missed launch if NASA do not sign it off?
I thought the USA going to the ISS was supposed to be cheap compared to the Russians?
I'd be interested to know the break down of this cost. Sounds like Boeing are just shoving out huge numbers now for everything on losses they have sustained with Max 737.
The Starliner needs another perfect launch to the ISS to be signed off. This reminds me of Apollo 1 etc. $$ should not get in the way of lives.
MartG said:
Gandahar said:
https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/29/boeing-reports-a...
$410m for one missed launch if NASA do not sign it off?
I thought the USA going to the ISS was supposed to be cheap compared to the Russians?
I'd be interested to know the break down of this cost. Sounds like Boeing are just shoving out huge numbers now for everything on losses they have sustained with Max 737.
The Starliner needs another perfect launch to the ISS to be signed off. This reminds me of Apollo 1 etc. $$ should not get in the way of lives.
Note that is a charge against their own accounts, not one they expect NASA to pay - though Boeing are definitely the more expensive of the two CCP providers with price per seat expected to be around $90M ( it's a 7 seater ) compared to $55M per seat for SpaceX$410m for one missed launch if NASA do not sign it off?
I thought the USA going to the ISS was supposed to be cheap compared to the Russians?
I'd be interested to know the break down of this cost. Sounds like Boeing are just shoving out huge numbers now for everything on losses they have sustained with Max 737.
The Starliner needs another perfect launch to the ISS to be signed off. This reminds me of Apollo 1 etc. $$ should not get in the way of lives.
I think I have worked it out though, NASA pays Boeing $90m per seat, not per flight, I thought it was per flight. So if 3 or 4 to the ISS then that is about 1 extra test flight worth plus extra cost on extra testing., which makes sense. So it looks like they are factoring in needing another attempt at a full end to end success asked for by NASA.
They'd have to write off an entire new Atlas V rocket as well. I'm guesstimating that's around $120 million per flight at least.
Obviously they can't reuse their booster for other customers like SpaceX potentially can. It's why they could afford to lose one in the flight abort test. It had already flown three times and had paid for it's build cost some time ago. There was just operational & fuel costs really.
Obviously they can't reuse their booster for other customers like SpaceX potentially can. It's why they could afford to lose one in the flight abort test. It had already flown three times and had paid for it's build cost some time ago. There was just operational & fuel costs really.
Beati Dogu said:
They'd have to write off an entire new Atlas V rocket as well. I'm guesstimating that's around $120 million per flight at least.
Obviously they can't reuse their booster for other customers like SpaceX potentially can. It's why they could afford to lose one in the flight abort test. It had already flown three times and had paid for it's build cost some time ago. There was just operational & fuel costs really.
Plus the second stage, although I guess most of the cost is the engine which wasn't there.Obviously they can't reuse their booster for other customers like SpaceX potentially can. It's why they could afford to lose one in the flight abort test. It had already flown three times and had paid for it's build cost some time ago. There was just operational & fuel costs really.
It seems that a potentially fatal software issue was found and fixed on the Starliner capsule while it was in orbit. The fix was uploaded just 2 hours before re-entry from its truncated mission.
"Had the error not been caught, the source said, proper thrusters would not open during the reentry process, and the vehicle would have been lost."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-...
"Had the error not been caught, the source said, proper thrusters would not open during the reentry process, and the vehicle would have been lost."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-...
I think that this is very, very bad for Boeing and Starliner. I am pretty sure it means three things -
Starliner will not be flying again for quite some time
When it does fly, it will definitely be another unmanned test
Spacex's Dragon will be the first to carry a crew to the ISS
With this and the 737 Max problems seems to be showing is that the management culture at Boeing has disastrously lost its way and if the company is to recover and survive, it needs a serious amount of restructuring at the top.
Starliner will not be flying again for quite some time
When it does fly, it will definitely be another unmanned test
Spacex's Dragon will be the first to carry a crew to the ISS
With this and the 737 Max problems seems to be showing is that the management culture at Boeing has disastrously lost its way and if the company is to recover and survive, it needs a serious amount of restructuring at the top.
Even without this new issue a flight to the ISS with people on board would have been risky without having at least one docking to show it can be done.
Even the problem with the wrong mission clock being used for the previous problem shows a lack of quality control. At least they didn't find bits of rubbish in the vehicle from the factory like they the USAF is with the tanker.
Everything put together shows that QA has seriously gone downhill over the years there.
Going to the moon with Lockheed Martin seems safer
Even the problem with the wrong mission clock being used for the previous problem shows a lack of quality control. At least they didn't find bits of rubbish in the vehicle from the factory like they the USAF is with the tanker.
Everything put together shows that QA has seriously gone downhill over the years there.
Going to the moon with Lockheed Martin seems safer
It's very reminiscent of what happened with North American Aviation (NAA) with their work on the initial versions of the Apollo Command Module. NASA had conducted a secret report into the company in 1965 because there were concerns about NAA's management style, in house culture and quality control. This culminated in the tragedy of the Apollo 1 fire in January 1967.
I hope NASA remembers its history.
I hope NASA remembers its history.
Beati Dogu said:
It seems that a potentially fatal software issue was found and fixed on the Starliner capsule while it was in orbit. The fix was uploaded just 2 hours before re-entry from its truncated mission.
"Had the error not been caught, the source said, proper thrusters would not open during the reentry process, and the vehicle would have been lost."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-...
So...a very important test flight, with the customer watching, the world watching, years of preparation...and two major flaws occurred "Had the error not been caught, the source said, proper thrusters would not open during the reentry process, and the vehicle would have been lost."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-...
Did they not test the thing at all ? Did they not run it through a simulated mission to check everything worked as it should ?
I agree - a fully successful unmanned flight is needed before putting people aboard this
Eric Mc said:
It's very reminiscent of what happened with North American Aviation (NAA) with their work on the initial versions of the Apollo Command Module. NASA had conducted a secret report into the company in 1965 because there were concerns about NAA's management style, in house culture and quality control. This culminated in the tragedy of the Apollo 1 fire in January 1967.
I hope NASA remembers its history.
Good point.I hope NASA remembers its history.
We have some friendly banter on the EV forum ( hi Rob :wave: ) about whether Tesla is going to survive. Considering Tesla have a good game plan, good direction from the top, good execution, in the main, and a good product then the answer is likely to be yes.
We might need to add on to that thread "Is Boeing Starliner going to survive?" . To be honest, I am not that sure. Which sounds crazy even thinking it. It most likely will, but let me give you this scenario :-
1. SpaceX gets a crew to the ISS which works perfectly.
2. Boeing still having issues with 737 Max ongoing ( that pesky software ! ).
3 Boeing top management more concerned with civil aircraft than space which is not a big earner.
4. Nasa paying more for Boeing than SpaceX
5. Donald Trump gets unhappy with Boeing, he does like Musk I believe as a go get them business man, puts pressure on NASA $$ wise.
Any more issues then Boeing might call it quits and Nasa will not be too upset if that happens. It will not be the first space craft they will have cancelled this year.....
It would be unlikely to be scrapped at this point, but I can see things coming together, success on SpaceX side. another failure on Boeing side, for them to call it quits.
I don't like Elon Musk as a person but SpaceX have someone in charge who has a the right stuff to get ontop of this challenge. Boeing leader probably doesn't even care about this part of the enterprise apart from costing another $410m.
Boeing seems to only care about their share holders, gave out another $1b + in the same month they borrowed another $12b .. how dumb is that ?
It's almost if they try to run the company using quantum un-consciousness. Ok, I've started to rant and rave !
If the Tesla share price was driven by the steam coming out of my ears then they would be at $10 000 per share by now.Gassing Station | Science! | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff