Mars is barred: why we shouldn't go to the red planet
Discussion
Toaster said:
every one is allowed an opinion even you but it doesn’t make it valid or true however the pod cast contains some Jems and debate.
So I should spend half an hour listening to the opinion of a Biomedical Imaging specialist on a topic that has nothing to do with her area of expertise?I'll pass.
The opinions of those who lack imagination, ambition and adventure when it comes to exploration beyond our own Planet are largely irrelevant - there is more than enough serious interest from truly qualified Scientists, Adventurers and Entrepreneurs to ensure that visiting the likes of Mars will happen. 
I have not listened to the Podcast but the usual arguments are:
1. We would contaminate an otherwise pristine environment in terms of Earthly microbes etc
Yes, this is indeed likely to happen and great efforts should be taken to prevent this but there has to come a time when this is no longer a consideration simply because the Red Planet is worthless to Humankind in the long haul as a protected Zoo.
The ultimate goal is to be able to colonise other Planets and whilst the Moon is a stepping stone to Habitat Outpost testing, surviving on Mars is an entirely more worthwhile exercise given it has water deposits and can potentially sustain Life without the need for regular supplies from Earth.
I'm not suggesting Mar's is the next Earth in terms of Human expansion - I'm suggesting it is on the road to that goal. Throughout History, Humans have produced Adventurer's and Visionaries who want to explore our boundaries. It will not stop because someone has a different Agenda. You cannot contain the yearning for exploration; for whatever personal reasons people have - be it simply a thirst for knowledge or a prize in the form of wealth.
Humans will go to Mars. It is inevitable. They will eventually Colonise it and they will learn valuable lessons - some at extreme costs. It is what we have always done - it is in our DNA.
The lessons learnt will result in improved harsh environment living tech, faster more capable space vessels. We will end up reaching Earth-like planets in the very, very distant Future by using Mar's-like Colonies as stepping stones. I am thoroughly convinced of this. What we know of physics aside, the technological advancements we have made as a Species just in the last 200 years is phenomenal. We can only imagine what we are capable of in 'only' 1000 years from now. If you transported someone from 1000 years ago to now they would be 'mind blown'. Our Descendants will look back at us today as Primitives, still starting out into the Universe.
So Mar's is merely a stepping stone. A very, very early stepping stone from which extremely valuable lessons in space exploration and colonisation will occur en-route to far, far greater things.
2. We could spend the resources on solving World Hunger, Medicinal Advancements etc.
This is a stupid argument and wouldn't even work if the entire World was Communist. We can achieve both. We should strive to achieve both. One does not depend upon the other.
Anyone with even a basic understanding as to why parts of our World suffer from Hunger through Famine and War know full well that throwing lots of money at the issues does not solve them. Bad Government, Tribal Warring Factions borne of greed, a hunger for Power and different Creeds and Ideologies cannot be solved by altruistic Billionaires throwing their wealth at these issues.
Throwing money at big Pharma for medicines? Again, unless you are going to State-control all Private Medical companies, forget it. Modern medicine emerges from those seeking wealth and profit. Not altruism. It's progress is linked to how much more the Shareholders can make from every advancement made. Yes, this comes with deliberate, regrettable negatives that in some cases even hinder what is made and released but it is still working better than the alternative.
Entrepreneurs and Adventurers like Elon Musk are doing a lot of good for the advancement of Humankind by encouraging Space Exploration. Other Billionaires, like Bill Gates, choose to invest in Charities - both do good things and are not wasting their wealth. Both can happen - are happening.
In the end, it doesn't really matter that a few fringe reactionary's express their idealistic views- they are largely unheard and will ultimately have no impact upon Progress and Advancement for Humans. If they want to see more money spent in any one direction then they should make that wealth themselves and spend it as they please. What they cannot do, is dictate how others spend theirs.
I have not listened to the Podcast but the usual arguments are:
1. We would contaminate an otherwise pristine environment in terms of Earthly microbes etc
Yes, this is indeed likely to happen and great efforts should be taken to prevent this but there has to come a time when this is no longer a consideration simply because the Red Planet is worthless to Humankind in the long haul as a protected Zoo.
The ultimate goal is to be able to colonise other Planets and whilst the Moon is a stepping stone to Habitat Outpost testing, surviving on Mars is an entirely more worthwhile exercise given it has water deposits and can potentially sustain Life without the need for regular supplies from Earth.
I'm not suggesting Mar's is the next Earth in terms of Human expansion - I'm suggesting it is on the road to that goal. Throughout History, Humans have produced Adventurer's and Visionaries who want to explore our boundaries. It will not stop because someone has a different Agenda. You cannot contain the yearning for exploration; for whatever personal reasons people have - be it simply a thirst for knowledge or a prize in the form of wealth.
Humans will go to Mars. It is inevitable. They will eventually Colonise it and they will learn valuable lessons - some at extreme costs. It is what we have always done - it is in our DNA.
The lessons learnt will result in improved harsh environment living tech, faster more capable space vessels. We will end up reaching Earth-like planets in the very, very distant Future by using Mar's-like Colonies as stepping stones. I am thoroughly convinced of this. What we know of physics aside, the technological advancements we have made as a Species just in the last 200 years is phenomenal. We can only imagine what we are capable of in 'only' 1000 years from now. If you transported someone from 1000 years ago to now they would be 'mind blown'. Our Descendants will look back at us today as Primitives, still starting out into the Universe.
So Mar's is merely a stepping stone. A very, very early stepping stone from which extremely valuable lessons in space exploration and colonisation will occur en-route to far, far greater things.
2. We could spend the resources on solving World Hunger, Medicinal Advancements etc.
This is a stupid argument and wouldn't even work if the entire World was Communist. We can achieve both. We should strive to achieve both. One does not depend upon the other.
Anyone with even a basic understanding as to why parts of our World suffer from Hunger through Famine and War know full well that throwing lots of money at the issues does not solve them. Bad Government, Tribal Warring Factions borne of greed, a hunger for Power and different Creeds and Ideologies cannot be solved by altruistic Billionaires throwing their wealth at these issues.
Throwing money at big Pharma for medicines? Again, unless you are going to State-control all Private Medical companies, forget it. Modern medicine emerges from those seeking wealth and profit. Not altruism. It's progress is linked to how much more the Shareholders can make from every advancement made. Yes, this comes with deliberate, regrettable negatives that in some cases even hinder what is made and released but it is still working better than the alternative.
Entrepreneurs and Adventurers like Elon Musk are doing a lot of good for the advancement of Humankind by encouraging Space Exploration. Other Billionaires, like Bill Gates, choose to invest in Charities - both do good things and are not wasting their wealth. Both can happen - are happening.
In the end, it doesn't really matter that a few fringe reactionary's express their idealistic views- they are largely unheard and will ultimately have no impact upon Progress and Advancement for Humans. If they want to see more money spent in any one direction then they should make that wealth themselves and spend it as they please. What they cannot do, is dictate how others spend theirs.
- I'm not actually entering into a Debate, as such, merely expressing my views in one post, sooo, that's all from me on the subject *
Toaster said:
Here is a pod cast and to be honest I can't agree more about why we shouldn't go to the red planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
why shouldn't we go?https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
Halb said:
Toaster said:
Here is a pod cast and to be honest I can't agree more about why we shouldn't go to the red planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
why shouldn't we go?https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
Isn't it really like suggesting we shouldn't be crossing the ocean towards the 'New World'?
As for Elon, well his rocket missed the planet, so I'd rather someone else sorted out the whole trip.
Regardless of the pristine nature of Mars and the risk of contamination, well, you could argue that there were any number of pristine environments here on earth and we didn't give a fig about them. The fact that it is apparently lifeless, but subject to huge does of radiation, I'd suggest that there are far more pragmatic reasons for not going at the moment.
However, it is a human quality that curiosity has always driven us as a species and I hope will continue for many generations to come. To not go is to accept we are done and will probably decline from here on in.
Lots to do before we are, in reality, ready to go to any other heavenly body in a long-term way - i.e. colonisation. But I for one, hope we give it a go
As for Elon, well his rocket missed the planet, so I'd rather someone else sorted out the whole trip.
Regardless of the pristine nature of Mars and the risk of contamination, well, you could argue that there were any number of pristine environments here on earth and we didn't give a fig about them. The fact that it is apparently lifeless, but subject to huge does of radiation, I'd suggest that there are far more pragmatic reasons for not going at the moment.
However, it is a human quality that curiosity has always driven us as a species and I hope will continue for many generations to come. To not go is to accept we are done and will probably decline from here on in.
Lots to do before we are, in reality, ready to go to any other heavenly body in a long-term way - i.e. colonisation. But I for one, hope we give it a go
KrazyIvan said:
Halb said:
Toaster said:
Here is a pod cast and to be honest I can't agree more about why we shouldn't go to the red planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
why shouldn't we go?https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
\alanpartridge
KrazyIvan said:
Halb said:
Toaster said:
Here is a pod cast and to be honest I can't agree more about why we shouldn't go to the red planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
why shouldn't we go?https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
Coolbanana said:
The opinions of those who lack imagination, ambition and adventure when it comes to exploration beyond our own Planet are largely irrelevant - there is more than enough serious interest from truly qualified Scientists, Adventurers and Entrepreneurs to ensure that visiting the likes of Mars will happen.
I have not listened to the Podcast but the usual arguments are:
1. We would contaminate an otherwise pristine environment in terms of Earthly microbes etc
Yes, this is indeed likely to happen and great efforts should be taken to prevent this but there has to come a time when this is no longer a consideration simply because the Red Planet is worthless to Humankind in the long haul as a protected Zoo.
The ultimate goal is to be able to colonise other Planets and whilst the Moon is a stepping stone to Habitat Outpost testing, surviving on Mars is an entirely more worthwhile exercise given it has water deposits and can potentially sustain Life without the need for regular supplies from Earth.
I'm not suggesting Mar's is the next Earth in terms of Human expansion - I'm suggesting it is on the road to that goal. Throughout History, Humans have produced Adventurer's and Visionaries who want to explore our boundaries. It will not stop because someone has a different Agenda. You cannot contain the yearning for exploration; for whatever personal reasons people have - be it simply a thirst for knowledge or a prize in the form of wealth.
Humans will go to Mars. It is inevitable. They will eventually Colonise it and they will learn valuable lessons - some at extreme costs. It is what we have always done - it is in our DNA.
The lessons learnt will result in improved harsh environment living tech, faster more capable space vessels. We will end up reaching Earth-like planets in the very, very distant Future by using Mar's-like Colonies as stepping stones. I am thoroughly convinced of this. What we know of physics aside, the technological advancements we have made as a Species just in the last 200 years is phenomenal. We can only imagine what we are capable of in 'only' 1000 years from now. If you transported someone from 1000 years ago to now they would be 'mind blown'. Our Descendants will look back at us today as Primitives, still starting out into the Universe.
So Mar's is merely a stepping stone. A very, very early stepping stone from which extremely valuable lessons in space exploration and colonisation will occur en-route to far, far greater things.
2. We could spend the resources on solving World Hunger, Medicinal Advancements etc.
This is a stupid argument and wouldn't even work if the entire World was Communist. We can achieve both. We should strive to achieve both. One does not depend upon the other.
Anyone with even a basic understanding as to why parts of our World suffer from Hunger through Famine and War know full well that throwing lots of money at the issues does not solve them. Bad Government, Tribal Warring Factions borne of greed, a hunger for Power and different Creeds and Ideologies cannot be solved by altruistic Billionaires throwing their wealth at these issues.
Throwing money at big Pharma for medicines? Again, unless you are going to State-control all Private Medical companies, forget it. Modern medicine emerges from those seeking wealth and profit. Not altruism. It's progress is linked to how much more the Shareholders can make from every advancement made. Yes, this comes with deliberate, regrettable negatives that in some cases even hinder what is made and released but it is still working better than the alternative.
Entrepreneurs and Adventurers like Elon Musk are doing a lot of good for the advancement of Humankind by encouraging Space Exploration. Other Billionaires, like Bill Gates, choose to invest in Charities - both do good things and are not wasting their wealth. Both can happen - are happening.
In the end, it doesn't really matter that a few fringe reactionary's express their idealistic views- they are largely unheard and will ultimately have no impact upon Progress and Advancement for Humans. If they want to see more money spent in any one direction then they should make that wealth themselves and spend it as they please. What they cannot do, is dictate how others spend theirs.
I couldn't agree moreI have not listened to the Podcast but the usual arguments are:
1. We would contaminate an otherwise pristine environment in terms of Earthly microbes etc
Yes, this is indeed likely to happen and great efforts should be taken to prevent this but there has to come a time when this is no longer a consideration simply because the Red Planet is worthless to Humankind in the long haul as a protected Zoo.
The ultimate goal is to be able to colonise other Planets and whilst the Moon is a stepping stone to Habitat Outpost testing, surviving on Mars is an entirely more worthwhile exercise given it has water deposits and can potentially sustain Life without the need for regular supplies from Earth.
I'm not suggesting Mar's is the next Earth in terms of Human expansion - I'm suggesting it is on the road to that goal. Throughout History, Humans have produced Adventurer's and Visionaries who want to explore our boundaries. It will not stop because someone has a different Agenda. You cannot contain the yearning for exploration; for whatever personal reasons people have - be it simply a thirst for knowledge or a prize in the form of wealth.
Humans will go to Mars. It is inevitable. They will eventually Colonise it and they will learn valuable lessons - some at extreme costs. It is what we have always done - it is in our DNA.
The lessons learnt will result in improved harsh environment living tech, faster more capable space vessels. We will end up reaching Earth-like planets in the very, very distant Future by using Mar's-like Colonies as stepping stones. I am thoroughly convinced of this. What we know of physics aside, the technological advancements we have made as a Species just in the last 200 years is phenomenal. We can only imagine what we are capable of in 'only' 1000 years from now. If you transported someone from 1000 years ago to now they would be 'mind blown'. Our Descendants will look back at us today as Primitives, still starting out into the Universe.
So Mar's is merely a stepping stone. A very, very early stepping stone from which extremely valuable lessons in space exploration and colonisation will occur en-route to far, far greater things.
2. We could spend the resources on solving World Hunger, Medicinal Advancements etc.
This is a stupid argument and wouldn't even work if the entire World was Communist. We can achieve both. We should strive to achieve both. One does not depend upon the other.
Anyone with even a basic understanding as to why parts of our World suffer from Hunger through Famine and War know full well that throwing lots of money at the issues does not solve them. Bad Government, Tribal Warring Factions borne of greed, a hunger for Power and different Creeds and Ideologies cannot be solved by altruistic Billionaires throwing their wealth at these issues.
Throwing money at big Pharma for medicines? Again, unless you are going to State-control all Private Medical companies, forget it. Modern medicine emerges from those seeking wealth and profit. Not altruism. It's progress is linked to how much more the Shareholders can make from every advancement made. Yes, this comes with deliberate, regrettable negatives that in some cases even hinder what is made and released but it is still working better than the alternative.
Entrepreneurs and Adventurers like Elon Musk are doing a lot of good for the advancement of Humankind by encouraging Space Exploration. Other Billionaires, like Bill Gates, choose to invest in Charities - both do good things and are not wasting their wealth. Both can happen - are happening.
In the end, it doesn't really matter that a few fringe reactionary's express their idealistic views- they are largely unheard and will ultimately have no impact upon Progress and Advancement for Humans. If they want to see more money spent in any one direction then they should make that wealth themselves and spend it as they please. What they cannot do, is dictate how others spend theirs.
- I'm not actually entering into a Debate, as such, merely expressing my views in one post, sooo, that's all from me on the subject *
It wasn’t meant to reach the planet Mars. It was the Falcon Heavy rocket they were testing and demonstrating, not the payload. I’m not sure why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. They’re either being thick or just trolling I guess.
It it had been intended for Mars, for a start they would have timed the launch when the two planets were a closest approach, which is about every 2 years. The payload has no terminal guidance or fuel to adjust its trajectory and slow into a Mars orbit. It also has no instruments to do anything once it got there. No one in their right mind would have put a real multi-hundred million dollar Mars probe on top of an unproven test rocket either. So don’t even go there.
It it had been intended for Mars, for a start they would have timed the launch when the two planets were a closest approach, which is about every 2 years. The payload has no terminal guidance or fuel to adjust its trajectory and slow into a Mars orbit. It also has no instruments to do anything once it got there. No one in their right mind would have put a real multi-hundred million dollar Mars probe on top of an unproven test rocket either. So don’t even go there.
Beati Dogu said:
It wasn’t meant to reach the planet Mars. It was the Falcon Heavy rocket they were testing and demonstrating, not the payload. I’m not sure why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. They’re either being thick or just trolling I guess.
The Trolls can read what has been reported that musk states:We decided to send something unusual, something that made us feel," he said. "The payload will be an original Tesla Roadster, playing [the song] 'Space Oddity,' on a billion-year elliptic Mars orbit."
Hmmm maybe they are not trolls after all. Just to add having an alternate view to the flock of sheep doesn’t make anyone thick. In fact as a Scientist it makes them annoyingly different
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 23 October 08:24
KrazyIvan said:
Halb said:
Toaster said:
Here is a pod cast and to be honest I can't agree more about why we shouldn't go to the red planet.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
why shouldn't we go?https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2018/oct...
Toaster said:
Beati Dogu said:
It wasn’t meant to reach the planet Mars. It was the Falcon Heavy rocket they were testing and demonstrating, not the payload. I’m not sure why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. They’re either being thick or just trolling I guess.
The Trolls can read what has been reported that musk states:We decided to send something unusual, something that made us feel," he said. "The payload will be an original Tesla Roadster, playing [the song] 'Space Oddity,' on a billion-year elliptic Mars orbit."
Hmmm maybe they are not trolls after all. Just to add having an alternate view to the flock of sheep doesn’t make anyone thick. In fact as a Scientist it makes them annoyingly different
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 23 October 08:24
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Toaster said:
Beati Dogu said:
It wasn’t meant to reach the planet Mars. It was the Falcon Heavy rocket they were testing and demonstrating, not the payload. I’m not sure why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. They’re either being thick or just trolling I guess.
The Trolls can read what has been reported that musk states:We decided to send something unusual, something that made us feel," he said. "The payload will be an original Tesla Roadster, playing [the song] 'Space Oddity,' on a billion-year elliptic Mars orbit."
Hmmm maybe they are not trolls after all. Just to add having an alternate view to the flock of sheep doesn’t make anyone thick. In fact as a Scientist it makes them annoyingly different
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 23 October 08:24
The best thing on threads like this is to just ignore them as they rapidly become personal and pointless. Whenever I see a thread started by this particular poster, my heart sinks as I know it will degenerate pretty rapidly.
In my opinion, the Science Forum is suffering as a result and I am increasingly becoming less enthusiastic about posting on it.
In my opinion, the Science Forum is suffering as a result and I am increasingly becoming less enthusiastic about posting on it.
I am neither a space scientist, nor highly read about why the space programme continues as it does but I did see a brief news article on TV that opined that Europe have launched a rocket to take a science machine to Mercury that will help unravel how our solar system was born and how it is evolving.
The space programme has been going along for decades and I am sure that there have been many inventions which have benefitted man as a result of new materials etc. However, I am struggling to understand how information on how our solar system was born can possibly benefit us now. Perhaps we should be spending all of our space programme funds on clearing the oceans of plastic, or providing water to outlying places in third world countries, or innoculations against life threatening diseases, or eye surgery to save eyesight, etc etc etc... the list is endless.
We are signing cheques to India every year for many millions of pounds to aid the poor therein, yet india are spending billions on a space programme. What the feck is that all about?
Discuss...
The space programme has been going along for decades and I am sure that there have been many inventions which have benefitted man as a result of new materials etc. However, I am struggling to understand how information on how our solar system was born can possibly benefit us now. Perhaps we should be spending all of our space programme funds on clearing the oceans of plastic, or providing water to outlying places in third world countries, or innoculations against life threatening diseases, or eye surgery to save eyesight, etc etc etc... the list is endless.
We are signing cheques to India every year for many millions of pounds to aid the poor therein, yet india are spending billions on a space programme. What the feck is that all about?
Discuss...
Eric Mc said:
The best thing on threads like this is to just ignore them as they rapidly become personal and pointless. Whenever I see a thread started by this particular poster, my heart sinks as I know it will degenerate pretty rapidly.
In my opinion, the Science Forum is suffering as a result and I am increasingly becoming less enthusiastic about posting on it.
Eric my friend you state I am mentally ill you state that this is a science forum so I am quizzical as to why you haven’t debated the OP I couldn’t care less if you agree or do not agree. However there is an argument that humans shouldn’t go to Mars I’m not saying it’s not do-able but Robotic exploration can achieve the same results without contaminating another pristine planet. The link before this suggests that there is some scientific evidence that humans came from Mars or at least microbes did. Can you not debate that, tbh I do not think you can you have an accountant’s head that says your view is right. So why not just try a little my friend go on you know you want too. In my opinion, the Science Forum is suffering as a result and I am increasingly becoming less enthusiastic about posting on it.
Edited by Toaster on Tuesday 23 October 09:37
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