Landcruiser not charging

[jmsgld]

2003 Landcruiser Amazon 4.2 td, standard dual batteries.
The battery light came on yesterday evening on way home from work, the batteries are quite old so assumed one had just expired and was going to order a couple of new ones on Monday.
Started it this AM and it was v. slow to turnover ie largely flat battery but started fine, again still hoping that it's just a battery. On the way to work the voltage slowly drops from 12v to almost nothing, warning lights start to come on etc. so the batteries are not receiving any charge.

Any fuses I should be checking or is it just going to be the alternator?

Thanks,

James

[E-bmw]

4.2D? Is that a typo?

It doesn't have to be the alternator or the battery.

Normal 1st attempt the obvious & free.

Check/remove/clean ALL positive & earth connections on batteries/charging circuit, that means remove/check/clean not just look at as a terminal that looks OK can still give a poor connection.

Then remove & charge both batteries fully.

Then use a multi-meter to measure battery voltages when off, on & finally with the engine running.

Then let us know the results and we will have a go at diagnosis.

[jmsgld]

Thanks for the reply,no typo, It's a 4.2 turbo diesel

The car made it into work this morning but only just, there's no way there will be enough power in the batteries to make it home... hence for the moment it is stuck in a work car park without any power near by, and I don't have a spanner with me to remove the batteries...I also need to double check that I have all the codes etc before removing both batteries at the same time...

There is a Halfords near by so I bought a large solar charger given the weather today in the hope that by tomorrow afternoon there might be enough charge to get it somewhere a bit more useful.

I'll bring tools and a multimeter in to work with me tomorrow and have a look when I get a chance... I really should have just taken a different car when it was so slow to turn over this morning, doh!

[Alpha Omega]

jmsgld said:

2003 Landcruiser Amazon 4.2 td, standard dual batteries.
The battery light came on yesterday evening on way home from work, the batteries are quite old so assumed one had just expired and was going to order a couple of new ones on Monday.
Started it this AM and it was v. slow to turnover ie largely flat battery but started fine, again still hoping that it's just a battery. On the way to work the voltage slowly drops from 12v to almost nothing, warning lights start to come on etc. so the batteries are not receiving any charge.

Any fuses I should be checking or is it just going to be the alternator?

Thanks,

James

The first thing to check is the fan belt. Has the fan belt broken or jumped off or is it very loose?
Post back your findings here
Don't start disconnecting and cleaning anything just yet as you don't want to be disturbing a fault and then later not know where that fault was
Your vehicle has 24 volt starting and you will need a multimeter to test the circuits
First things first, check the belt

[jmsgld]

Thanks, the belt appears fine not new by any stretch but in good condition and reasonably tight, no slipping noises noted. The truck runs perfectly other than the fact the batteries are losing their charge when it's running...

Any idea how long a 6w solar charger will take to charge 2 x 90ah 12V batteries ? I'm guessing quite a long time...

I have a multimeter at home that I will bring in tomorrow.

[GreenV8S]

jmsgld said:

..

Any idea how long a 6w solar charger will take to charge 2 x 90ah 12V batteries ? I'm guessing quite a long time...

Probably forever. I mean literally - I doubt that a 6W rated panel will average enough output to overcome the leakage current in the battery let alone charge it.

It's unlikely you have two faulty batteries so the most likely problem is that the vehicle isn't charging. Since the problem happened suddenly and consistently is seems more like a component failure than a poor connection. I would suspect a failed module in the alternator. That's a relatively simple job to fix and you may well be able to find a mobile mechanic to come out, test whether it's an alternator fault and repair it if so. That mobile mechanic should also be able to give you a jump start.

Your other option is to get a mate with a car and some jump leads to leave their car at fast idle for half an hour or so with their battery jumpered to yours, and get some charge into it so you can start and drive it home, if you prefer to work on it there.

[jmsgld]

I hadn't thought about charging it from another vehicle, I'll have to bring another car tomorrow anyway so will charge it from that.
What's the protocol, I guess just attach jump leads then start donor car and let idle? I saw my mechanic leaving in his camper van on Friday evening so hopefully he is around next week..It's only 10 miles, and the car has done that twice since I first noticed the charge light so should be able to get it to my regular mechanic after charging.

Not sure if it's the solar charger or just the batteries standing for a while but the onboard voltmeter is now reading about 10V and the central locking and and sat nav etc screen are now working. The screen was the first thing to go, then the ABS light and eventually went into limp mode just making it into work car park with the onboard voltmeter not really registering anything at all and the central locking failed. I'll bring in a multimeter tomorrow to confirm it's not charging but suspect there has been a sudden failure probably somewhere in the alternator as I think that is a relative weak point, it's done 226K. The batteries are quite old but the mechanic checks them at each service and they were 96 and 104% at last service 1 year ago so hopefully salvageable...

[GreenV8S]

jmsgld said:

What's the protocol, I guess just attach jump leads then start donor car and let idle?

Not quite.

Bear in mind this has the potential to set both vehicles on fire if you get it wrong, so plan out exactly what you're going to do in advance and don't let anyone else 'help' unless they know exactly what they need to do, too.

Position both vehicles so the jump leads can reach between the batteries without straining.
Start the donor vehicle.
Connect the positive lead to battery +ve on the donor vehicle and battery +ve on the dead vehicle.
Connect the negative lead to battery -ve on the donor vehicle and battery -ve on the dead vehicle.
Disconnect in the reverse order i.e. disconnect negative first and disconnect the negative lead at both ends before you touch the positive lead.

Connecting and disconnecting in this order minimises the risk of shorting either battery if anyone accidentally allows any end of either lead to touch vehicle ground.

Make absolutely sure that you connect positive to positive and negative to negative. Connecting the other way will produce a dead short across both batteries and is a good way to set things on fire.

When you connect the last end of the negative lead the dead battery will start drawing a lot of current from the donor. It would help to have somebody in the donor to keep the revs up slightly.

You will probably be charging at 30-40 Amps so it might take a couple of hours to fully charge both flat batteries but you probably don't need to fully charge them. Be prepared to be there for quite a long time, anyway, You could get enough charge in to start the dead vehicle in five minutes or so, but remember that this is not just a dead vehicle that will charge itself once it's running - you need to get enough charge in to start and drive to wherever you need to take it for repairs.

Last point: assume that anyone helping you will deliberately try to short the jump leads together at some point. Twice, I've helped a stranger out with a jump start and had them 'helpfully' disconnect both leads from their car and clip them to each other before handing them to me. Luckily, both times I was able to disconnect the other end in time to avoid blowing things up. If there's anyone else around, do your damnedest to make sure they stay the hell away from the jump leads.

[Alpha Omega]

GreenV8S said:

Not quite.

Bear in mind this has the potential to set both vehicles on fire if you get it wrong, so plan out exactly what you're going to do in advance and don't let anyone else 'help' unless they know exactly what they need to do, too.

Position both vehicles so the jump leads can reach between the batteries without straining.
Start the donor vehicle.
Connect the positive lead to battery +ve on the donor vehicle and battery +ve on the dead vehicle.
Connect the negative lead to battery -ve on the donor vehicle and battery -ve on the dead vehicle.
Disconnect in the reverse order i.e. disconnect negative first and disconnect the negative lead at both ends before you touch the positive lead.

Connecting and disconnecting in this order minimises the risk of shorting either battery if anyone accidentally allows any end of either lead to touch vehicle ground.

Make absolutely sure that you connect positive to positive and negative to negative. Connecting the other way will produce a dead short across both batteries and is a good way to set things on fire.

When you connect the last end of the negative lead the dead battery will start drawing a lot of current from the donor. It would help to have somebody in the donor to keep the revs up slightly.

You will probably be charging at 30-40 Amps so it might take a couple of hours to fully charge both flat batteries but you probably don't need to fully charge them. Be prepared to be there for quite a long time, anyway, You could get enough charge in to start the dead vehicle in five minutes or so, but remember that this is not just a dead vehicle that will charge itself once it's running - you need to get enough charge in to start and drive to wherever you need to take it for repairs.

Last point: assume that anyone helping you will deliberately try to short the jump leads together at some point. Twice, I've helped a stranger out with a jump start and had them 'helpfully' disconnect both leads from their car and clip them to each other before handing them to me. Luckily, both times I was able to disconnect the other end in time to avoid blowing things up. If there's anyone else around, do your damnedest to make sure they stay the hell away from the jump leads.

Do not follow all these instructions, they are good but not good enough
Ignore the part that mentions start the donor vehicle
Once you have connected the jump leads correctly you can then start the donor vehicle to charge your vehicles batteries
You may well get a spark or two when you connect the jump leads, if you were to have the donor vehicle running you would get a bigger spark, none of us like sparks do we

[GreenV8S]

Alpha Omega said:

Ignore the part that mentions start the donor vehicle

Don't ignore it. Connecting a vehicle to two big flat batteries and then trying to start it is a recipe for *two* vehicles with flat batteries.

If you're concerned about how big a spark you get when you connect the jump leads, with respect I think your priorities are wrong. You can get a pretty big spark in either case, but the running engine doesn't make the spark significantly bigger and in any case the spark is not a problem.

[tr7v8]

Not exactly sure how these are set up but they run 24V for some bits, hence the two batteries. So jumping it from a 12V battery needs to be done very carefully & with a lot of planning otherwise there will be a big BANG!

[jmsgld]

Thanks for all the input.

I believe that the 80 series run 12V / parallel for everything except starting when they run 24V / series, and the 100 series (my car) runs 12V/ parallel for everything including starting. I am going to make sure though before connecting anything. I might just remove both batteries and charge them separately if I'm not 100% sure.

On a side note the "large" 6w 17.5V solar charger from Halfrauds unsurprisingly didn't provide enough charge today to even move the starter motor after a full day charging in bright sunshine...

[Mignon]

jmsgld said:

On a side note the "large" 6w 17.5V solar charger from Halfrauds unsurprisingly didn't provide enough charge today to even move the starter motor after a full day charging in bright sunshine...

Why on earth would that surprise you? Even if you aren't an electrician you must have done basic electricity equations at school. V x I = W (Volts x amps = Watts).

6w at 12v = 0.5 amps. With 2 x 90 amp hour batteries that means 360 hours to charge them even if you get the full 6W. Factoring out night time when there's no sun that's a month at minimum. Why didn't you just buy a proper battery charger?

Edited by Mignon on Sunday 18th June 09:07

[jmsgld]

Mignon said:

Why on earth would that surprise you? Even if you aren't an electrician you must have done basic electricity equations at school. V x I = W (Volts x amps = Watts).

6w at 12v = 0.5 amps. With 2 x 90 amp hour batteries that means 360 hours to charge them even if you get the full 6W. Factoring out night time when there's no sun that's a month at minimum. Why didn't you just buy a proper battery charger?

Edited by Mignon on Sunday 18th June 09:07

I went to Halfords and explained my problem in the hope they might have a portable charger or something I could hire, the guy said that the solar charger should work... I didn't even check the power of the unit, seemed like a reasonable idea... I might try taking it back.
There's no power available anywhere near the car hence mains charger not an option. When you factor in efficiency and drain into the equation I suspect that it would never create enough charge to start it as someone had already suggested.

I think I'm just going to disconnect the batteries and charge individually, seems the lower risk option. Any idea how long it would take to charge the batteries individually with jump leads from an 2013 X5 40d, a quick look suggests the alternator is rated to about 180A, so 90AH batteries should be 1/2 hour each but longer at just idle?

Thanks, James

[Alpha Omega]

jmsgld said:

Mignon said:

Why on earth would that surprise you? Even if you aren't an electrician you must have done basic electricity equations at school. V x I = W (Volts x amps = Watts).

6w at 12v = 0.5 amps. With 2 x 90 amp hour batteries that means 360 hours to charge them even if you get the full 6W. Factoring out night time when there's no sun that's a month at minimum. Why didn't you just buy a proper battery charger?

Edited by Mignon on Sunday 18th June 09:07

I went to Halfords and explained my problem in the hope they might have a portable charger or something I could hire, the guy said that the solar charger should work... I didn't even check the power of the unit, seemed like a reasonable idea... I might try taking it back.
There's no power available anywhere near the car hence mains charger not an option. When you factor in efficiency and drain into the equation I suspect that it would never create enough charge to start it as someone had already suggested.

I think I'm just going to disconnect the batteries and charge individually, seems the lower risk option. Any idea how long it would take to charge the batteries individually with jump leads from an 2013 X5 40d, a quick look suggests the alternator is rated to about 180A, so 90AH batteries should be 1/2 hour each but longer at just idle?

Thanks, James

Flat batteries take several hours to charge, you shouldn't be attempting to charge the batteries from another vehicle, the cost in fuel alone makes this method a no goer
You could leave them connected to another vehicle for 20 minutes and see if it will start, even if it does start there is no guarantee that there will be enough charge in them to get you home
The best procedure is to remove the batteries and take them to a auto electrician to have them charged and tested

[jmsgld]

Bugger, I thought I could charge the low batteries from the other car.

Multimeter reads 12.0 V at each of the battery terminals (they are connected in parallel).

Am I better off just removing the batteries and charging them on a mains charger at home?

[GreenV8S]

jmsgld said:

Am I better off just removing the batteries and charging them on a mains charger at home?

That's the ideal solution, but if that isn't practical then charging from another vehicle is a feasible emergency measure to get you home, as long as you're prepared for the time and expense of idling the other vehicle for that long.

[jmsgld]

Batteries now sitting the back of the other car, I'll take them home and charge properly, Halfords took back the solar charger... thanks for all the help.

[Alpha Omega]

jmsgld said:

Batteries now sitting the back of the other car, I'll take them home and charge properly, Halfords took back the solar charger... thanks for all the help.

Good on you
When you have charged the batteries it will be worth your while to take them to a auto electrician to have them tested, let the batteries stand for several hours before taking them for testing, sometimes a just taken off charge battery will pass the test but once stood for several hours and cooled down it may fail
Once you know the batteries you are fitting to the vehicle are good you can then look into the charging problem

[jmsgld]

'twas the alternator, no current from it... reconditioned unit on it's way.