3.5T Box Vans and Tachos/O-Licences
Discussion
I have a vested interest in this as we run a very similar setup commercially (albeit for our own use).
One of our industry mates runs a 3.5T plated Peugeot Boxer platform cab with a car transporter box on it to move a Rally X car around the place for events etc. Essentially these are a small race truck with around 1300KGs carry capacity and are registered as a 3.5T van, have a class 7 MOT etc. etc. (think something very similar to a 3.5T horse box but with a car in the back) They were stopped on the way to an event by a DVSA chap on suspicion of being over weight, when weighed the van was 3388KG so no drama there but they were told they were opperating illegaly without a tacho or an o-licence.
The van does not have a tow bar, tow bar electrics or the ability to mount a tow bar without significant modification as such both they (and I) were under the impression it was fine to use these vehicles like any other van up to 3.5T loaded weight without a tacho or an o-licence as they are just vans.
Any thoughts as to if that is the case or do I have a lot of paperwork to do ASAP and they have a case coming up?
Everything I have googled seems to point to the fact that if the van can't tow it's fine.....
One of our industry mates runs a 3.5T plated Peugeot Boxer platform cab with a car transporter box on it to move a Rally X car around the place for events etc. Essentially these are a small race truck with around 1300KGs carry capacity and are registered as a 3.5T van, have a class 7 MOT etc. etc. (think something very similar to a 3.5T horse box but with a car in the back) They were stopped on the way to an event by a DVSA chap on suspicion of being over weight, when weighed the van was 3388KG so no drama there but they were told they were opperating illegaly without a tacho or an o-licence.
The van does not have a tow bar, tow bar electrics or the ability to mount a tow bar without significant modification as such both they (and I) were under the impression it was fine to use these vehicles like any other van up to 3.5T loaded weight without a tacho or an o-licence as they are just vans.
Any thoughts as to if that is the case or do I have a lot of paperwork to do ASAP and they have a case coming up?
Everything I have googled seems to point to the fact that if the van can't tow it's fine.....Tacho only for commercial vehicles/combinations over 3.5 tonnes MAM/GVW - that is the law
1.1 You need an operator's licence to carry goods (or burden) connected with any trade or business if you "USE" a motor vehicle on a road with: A gross plated weight of more than 3.5 tonnes; or. if it has no gross plated weight, an unladen weight of more than 1525kg.
1.1 You need an operator's licence to carry goods (or burden) connected with any trade or business if you "USE" a motor vehicle on a road with: A gross plated weight of more than 3.5 tonnes; or. if it has no gross plated weight, an unladen weight of more than 1525kg.
poppopbangbang said:
I have a vested interest in this as we run a very similar setup commercially (albeit for our own use).
One of our industry mates runs a 3.5T plated Peugeot Boxer platform cab with a car transporter box on it to move a Rally X car around the place for events etc. Essentially these are a small race truck with around 1300KGs carry capacity and are registered as a 3.5T van, have a class 7 MOT etc. etc. (think something very similar to a 3.5T horse box but with a car in the back) They were stopped on the way to an event by a DVSA chap on suspicion of being over weight, when weighed the van was 3388KG so no drama there but they were told they were opperating illegaly without a tacho or an o-licence.
The van does not have a tow bar, tow bar electrics or the ability to mount a tow bar without significant modification as such both they (and I) were under the impression it was fine to use these vehicles like any other van up to 3.5T loaded weight without a tacho or an o-licence as they are just vans
Any thoughts as to if that is the case or do I have a lot of paperwork to do ASAP and they have a case coming up? Everything I have googled seems to point to the fact that if the van can't tow it's fine.....
Mermaids !!! its under 3.5 ton and not towing so not subject to O licence ,tacho etc, words fail they are supposed to know the rules not make them up as they go along .....One of our industry mates runs a 3.5T plated Peugeot Boxer platform cab with a car transporter box on it to move a Rally X car around the place for events etc. Essentially these are a small race truck with around 1300KGs carry capacity and are registered as a 3.5T van, have a class 7 MOT etc. etc. (think something very similar to a 3.5T horse box but with a car in the back) They were stopped on the way to an event by a DVSA chap on suspicion of being over weight, when weighed the van was 3388KG so no drama there but they were told they were opperating illegaly without a tacho or an o-licence.
The van does not have a tow bar, tow bar electrics or the ability to mount a tow bar without significant modification as such both they (and I) were under the impression it was fine to use these vehicles like any other van up to 3.5T loaded weight without a tacho or an o-licence as they are just vans
Any thoughts as to if that is the case or do I have a lot of paperwork to do ASAP and they have a case coming up?
Everything I have googled seems to point to the fact that if the van can't tow it's fine.....barstuwards
DVSA always throw a strop if their suspisions are proved wrong .
I have found them to be a miserable bunch of humourless nerks whever I have had dealings with them .
Probably because of nil infringements, they don't like that or being told that their drive over weighing scales are crud !
I have found them to be a miserable bunch of humourless nerks whever I have had dealings with them .
Probably because of nil infringements, they don't like that or being told that their drive over weighing scales are crud !
the tribester said:
From my experience, if they find you running without tacho or previous records, they'd be giving you a ticket at least.
Seems unusual this case, or a misunderstanding.
Plenty of big horsebox owners have been caught out and ticketed driving from their kids gymkhanas.
Often because they claim 'not for hire or reward' but are one or more of the following ( ditto with 'amateur' motorsport)Seems unusual this case, or a misunderstanding.
Plenty of big horsebox owners have been caught out and ticketed driving from their kids gymkhanas.
1. moving other people's animals/ vehicles as well
2. competing for none trivial prizes
3. recieving some form of sponsorship from a business or other entity
I run lutons and flat beds and he does not need a taco and he does not need an o licence or taco even if he was running for Hire and reward as he was under 3.5 tonnes
You will get some jobs worths and this is what happens
They book him and arrange to take legal action
It goes to their office and it gets canceled and he gets b
ked but nobody tells you that bit
If it did for some mad reason get to court the judge would kick it out
You will get some jobs worths and this is what happens
They book him and arrange to take legal action
It goes to their office and it gets canceled and he gets b
ked but nobody tells you that bit If it did for some mad reason get to court the judge would kick it out
Edited by jeremyh1 on Saturday 12th May 15:55
In Arduis Fouette said:
Often because they claim 'not for hire or reward' but are one or more of the following ( ditto with 'amateur' motorsport)
1. moving other people's animals/ vehicles as well
2. competing for none trivial prizes
3. recieving some form of sponsorship from a business or other entity
They really need to specifically write this b1. moving other people's animals/ vehicles as well
2. competing for none trivial prizes
3. recieving some form of sponsorship from a business or other entity
ks out of being a potential interpretation, and categorically state that 'hire or reward' is in reference to being paid for the act of transportation, the potential to win a prize based on the use of whatever you're transporting shouldn't even come close to counting for such purposes.I don't see how such an interpretation serves any purpose except enabling an attitude of "we're going to damn well find something to get you for".
InitialDave said:
In Arduis Fouette said:
Often because they claim 'not for hire or reward' but are one or more of the following ( ditto with 'amateur' motorsport)
1. moving other people's animals/ vehicles as well
2. competing for none trivial prizes
3. recieving some form of sponsorship from a business or other entity
They really need to specifically write this b1. moving other people's animals/ vehicles as well
2. competing for none trivial prizes
3. recieving some form of sponsorship from a business or other entity
ks out of being a potential interpretation, and categorically state that 'hire or reward' is in reference to being paid for the act of transportation, the potential to win a prize based on the use of whatever you're transporting shouldn't even come close to counting for such purposes.I don't see how such an interpretation serves any purpose except enabling an attitude of "we're going to damn well find something to get you for".
In Arduis Fouette said:
That you happen to enjoy your Secondary Employment is irrelevant to the Law.
But it's not employment, it's a hobby/pastime.My stance would be that where the prize for winning does not count as taxable income, the fact you're competing for a prize should not be grounds for it being "commercial" driving.
InitialDave said:
But it's not employment, it's a hobby/pastime.
My stance would be that where the prize for winning does not count as taxable income, the fact you're competing for a prize should not be grounds for it being "commercial" driving.
saldy the law says otherwise , exactly what point does someone become a professional then ?My stance would be that where the prize for winning does not count as taxable income, the fact you're competing for a prize should not be grounds for it being "commercial" driving.
InitialDave said:
In Arduis Fouette said:
saldy the law says otherwise , exactly what point does someone become a professional then ?
When they're earning taxable income for doing it, I'd say.and horse boxes while claiming it's just a hobby !!
The O licence regs are to protect people and make a level playing field for all ..
I think a genuine private competitor can come and go in an HGV without hassle if they do it quietly so to speak...
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 16th May 08:57
powerstroke said:
some people do take the pee and seem to think they can get away with sponsors adverts and or being part of a commercial business like buliding race cars or running an equestrian business with these race trucks
and horse boxes while claiming it's just a hobby !!
The O licence regs are to protect people and make a level playing field for all ..
I think a genuine private competitor can come and go in an HGV without hassle if they do it quietly so to speak...
exactly , hence the reason DVSA take a dim view of people claiming 'not for hire or reward' when cash or cash equivalent prizes sometimes of hundreds of pounds are on offer and where people are sponsored ( whether cash or goods / services ) ....and horse boxes while claiming it's just a hobby !!
The O licence regs are to protect people and make a level playing field for all ..
I think a genuine private competitor can come and go in an HGV without hassle if they do it quietly so to speak...
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 16th May 08:57
In Arduis Fouette said:
exactly , hence the reason DVSA take a dim view of people claiming 'not for hire or reward' when cash or cash equivalent prizes sometimes of hundreds of pounds are on offer and where people are sponsored ( whether cash or goods / services ) ....
And I disagree. The 'hire or reward' definition should not apply on the basis that you may win a prize. Obviously no O licence needed for a 3.5t guy was being a moron, however for over that or towing with a van-
Substitute horse for car & this is the DVSA regs, basically no probs if its a hobby even if prize money.
Operator licensing
In deciding whether or not you need an
operator’s licence, you should firstly
consider whether your equestrian activity
is very much a hobby, and if you can
reasonably be deemed to have amateur
status. If it’s the case that your expenditure
is more than you could ever hope to gain in
prize-money or sponsorship, and you don’t
consider your activity to be a business,
then you don’t need an operator’s licence.
This should account for most people who
transport horses as part of their hobby.
Where it is evident that any prize-money
does not form part of an expected income in
connection with what is clearly an amateur
activity (and those winnings are only ever on
an incidental basis), then an operator’s licence
will not be required.
Transporting horses on behalf
of others-
Where transport is in connection with an
amateur activity and for nothing more than
fuel money (purely to cover costs), then
an operator’s licence will not be required.
However, where there is a commercial element
to horse transport, when horses are being
transported in return for financial payment,
then an operator’s licence will be needed.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidanc...
Substitute horse for car & this is the DVSA regs, basically no probs if its a hobby even if prize money.
Operator licensing
In deciding whether or not you need an
operator’s licence, you should firstly
consider whether your equestrian activity
is very much a hobby, and if you can
reasonably be deemed to have amateur
status. If it’s the case that your expenditure
is more than you could ever hope to gain in
prize-money or sponsorship, and you don’t
consider your activity to be a business,
then you don’t need an operator’s licence.
This should account for most people who
transport horses as part of their hobby.
Where it is evident that any prize-money
does not form part of an expected income in
connection with what is clearly an amateur
activity (and those winnings are only ever on
an incidental basis), then an operator’s licence
will not be required.
Transporting horses on behalf
of others-
Where transport is in connection with an
amateur activity and for nothing more than
fuel money (purely to cover costs), then
an operator’s licence will not be required.
However, where there is a commercial element
to horse transport, when horses are being
transported in return for financial payment,
then an operator’s licence will be needed.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidanc...
Edited by iguana on Wednesday 16th May 23:49
Gassing Station | Commercial Break | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff