Idle Speculation Question

[Doofus]

Me again

Some manufacturers (Autotrail, Swift) do coachbuilt MHs of a similar size to A-classes from the European builders.

Is there any reason to go for one over the other?

[oblio]

Doofus said:

Me again

Some manufacturers (Autotrail, Swift) do coachbuilt MHs of a similar size to A-classes from the European builders.

Is there any reason to go for one over the other?

I think there was a thread on A classes v coachbuilts a while ago . No real outcome though from memory. I think it was down to taste.

I guess visibility is better and the front cab space is bigger in an A Class however replacement windscreens can cost a couple of grand so bear that in mind if your insurance doesn't cover it (and they have extended lead times too).

I've never owned an A Class so would bow to others judgement on them.



Edited to add: I thought so. Here's the thread...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Doofus]

oblio said:

I think there was a thread on A classes v coachbuilts a while ago . No real outcome though from memory. I think it was down to taste.

I guess visibility is better and the front cab space is bigger in an A Class however replacement windscreens can cost a couple of grand so bear that in mind if your insurance doesn't cover it (and they have extended lead times too).

I've never owned an A Class so would bow to others judgement on them.



Edited to add: I thought so. Here's the thread...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Swift Kontiki is coachbilt, with a double floor and is similar in length, width and height to an A class. Off the shelf windscreen and better aerodynamics work in its favour.

[Spuffington]

I’ve been trying to comment on this, but seems to be a problem “Forbidden 403”?

EDIT - seems my post was too long. Have split it into two.

Edited by Spuffington on Sunday 14th June 17:31

[Spuffington]

Hi, bit late to this but I’ll do my best to add my two penneth.

I lived in motorhomes for about two years during my divorce so I feel reasonably qualified to comment.

I personally would go as big as you can get away with. I wouldn’t worry about the size of the rig when on the continent since France and Germany particularly are more set up to deal with motorhomes and are more accommodating of them/welcoming. Getting to the supermarket is easy and you will frequently see folk in motorhomes parking up to get provisions and even staying the night. Some towns or supermarkets put Aires in their car parks to service (drop waste and pick up water).

In terms of payload, if you’re full timing, you do need a fair bit. And if you’re going off grid a fair bit, I like to carry a mostly full tank of water with me, so that needs factoring in. I would be tempted to seek out a black tank if you can since I always find myself limited by toilet cassettes. Black tanks aren’t the limiting factor people make out, without wishing to start a big discussion on the topic.

In terms of the 7.5t rigs which carry smart cars, none of them really work in the real world as, as has been indicated, once you put the car onboard, your payload disappears. I have seen people look at John Deere light utility vehicle things as an option but they’re still heavy.

My personal feeling is that if you’re on the continent then it’s rare you’ll need secondary transport. I see more of a case for it in the UK where you’re by and large limited to campsites for overnighting and those sites tend to be well outside towns.

I had a Hymer when I first fulltimed and although it was reasonably hardy and well built, it was a tough life living in it. After 8months I started looking for something else with more comfort and luxury, which was well built and would withstand properly living.

[Spuffington]

I looked at all sorts of vans - the UK vans are cheap and on the face of it look classy and modern but a nose around a few found several with broken fittings.......in the showroom! I knew from my Rimor days that they weren’t to be repeated and I felt the modern Hymers weren’t a massive step up in build quality from the 2001 model I already had. I was quite tempted by the Rapido and Burstner but build quality was only incrementally better.

In the end I was persuaded to look at Concorde. Before that, id had limited experience with them. Upon drawing up to the thing for the first time, from the outside it oozed quality. Once inside, it was clear this was another league.

I didn’t end up buying the first one but bought the next one I saw. I’m now nearly three years with it and honestly can’t imagine ever selling it. The engineering is second to none and whilst complex, as much thought has gone into taking it apart as putting it together, so any repairs have been easy, even for a competent diyer like me.

I’m talking here about a 2005 van, so by no means new. Admittedly cost the first owner nearly £200k even back then, but at £45k its an absolute steal. Mine has a 6t max weight with 2t payload. Full up - 4 adults, genny, full tanks, bikes, all associated kit, food etc, I still have about 500kg on the rear axle to spare.

It really is in a different league to anything less than perhaps a Frankia, Cathargo at the cheaper end of the premium scale and modern Concorde, Morelo or Pheonix at the top end.

If I were in your position, with £100-150k burning a whole in my pocket, focussed on travelling (semi full timing) predominately Europe but occasionally U.K., I’d go for anything up to 9m Concorde or Cathargo and if you want to splurge, the go Morelo. Don’t bother with towing a car or sticking one in the garage, a pair of ebikes will do and aim for 2t of payload, big black tank, min. 250l fresh water tank. Stick to 7.5t chassis.

Good luck with the search.

[Spuffington]

Something like this:

https://www.premiummotorhomes.com/motorhomes-for-s...

https://www.premiummotorhomes.com/motorhomes-for-s...

Or bust the budget completely...

https://www.premiummotorhomes.com/motorhomes-for-s...

[Doofus]

Spuffington said:

Loads of useful stuff

Much appreciated, thank you. At the moment, my wife's taken with Niesmann & Bischoff, but I like the Swift Kontiki, because it's cheaper and bigger, althoug I suspect it's lower quality.

I like the Carthagos, except that they have a face only a mother could love.

Niesmann look the favourite for spec (at a price) and design, both inside and out.

We're not planning to fulltime, but could be doing several weeks at a time. I see lots of stuff online suggesting anything over 7m will limit us, but we want at least 8.

Why don't I want a caravan? Why do you all have MHs rather than caravans?

[oblio]

Doofus said:

Why don't I want a caravan? Why do you all have MHs rather than caravans?

No towing.

Pull over; kettle on!

Can use aires/Stelplatz etc (not open to tuggers)

Easier to wildcamp - you don't even have to get out of the vehicle and can pack up and leave just as easily, again without stepping outside unless you want to.

Mrs can use the bog on the move in an emergency

[Doofus]

oblio said:

No towing.

Pull over; kettle on!

Can use aires/Stelplatz etc (not open to tuggers)

Easier to wildcamp - you don't even have to get out of the vehicle and can pack up and leave just as easily, again without stepping outside unless you want to.

Mrs can use the bog on the move in an emergency

Question answered. Thank you.

I didn't want a wheely shed anyway.

[Spuffington]

Doofus said:

Spuffington said:

Loads of useful stuff

Much appreciated, thank you. At the moment, my wife's taken with Niesmann & Bischoff, but I like the Swift Kontiki, because it's cheaper and bigger, althoug I suspect it's lower quality.

I like the Carthagos, except that they have a face only a mother could love.

Niesmann look the favourite for spec (at a price) and design, both inside and out.

We're not planning to fulltime, but could be doing several weeks at a time. I see lots of stuff online suggesting anything over 7m will limit us, but we want at least 8.

Why don't I want a caravan? Why do you all have MHs rather than caravans?

You’re welcome. Do go and have a prod around both in great detail. I in no way see the Swift in the same league as the Niesman and Bischoff, but then neither do I see the N&B as being worth the premium over other vans. I’ve prodded around them a good few times at Travelworld showroom and although they look great, I feel they lack the quality they should have at that price. And whilst the colour schemes are daring and bang up to date, I would fear they’ll date very quickly. Not sure what effect that will have on residuals. But that’s just my view.

Don’t believe everything you read online. I’m flabbergasted at some of the attitudes I see on the motorhoming Facebook pages about limitations of length and what you can and can’t do. I’m sure that 90% of the comments are from people who have no experience and just reeling off stuff they’ve heard from mates at rallies or down the pub. I’ve travelled nearly 11k miles in my 9m Concorde and only once got stuck.......that was due to my own foolishness of trying to impress my other half with a beautiful but unsuitable overnight spot in Glencoe. Otherwise I’ve travelled done most of the NC500 and some pretty tight spots without causing myself or anyone else any issues. I’ve also travelled lots of France, Germany and the Austrian alps, in small towns, villages and mountain passes, all without issue. As far as I’m concerned, it’s about confidence, skill and healthy respect for other road users. Anyone would think on some of the forums that all buses and hgv’s are less than 8m long and any vehicle above, particularly a motorhome, should have flashing orange lights, a person walking in front for safety, a wide vehicle escort and members of the public are waving garlic and crucifixes.

ANYWAY, rant over.....

In terms of why I motorhome: I hate being in the same place more than a night or two. I love being self sufficient, “wilding” where I can, away from other people and being able to stop exactly where I want rather than where a local authority directs me to (ie a campsite). My favourite touring is in Scotland, France or Germany. The latter two having great infrastructure around Aires and Stellplätze which allow you to get right into small towns and see bits of a country that you might otherwise miss. Caravanning doesn’t allow you to do this and you’re totally reliant upon pitches and utilities provided by campsites since Aires won’t normally permit caravans.

There is clearly the downside of buying and running costs vs a caravan and the not having a car thing. But it’s each to their own and motorhoming is the only way for me.

Good luck with your search!

[Doofus]

We've downsized to 7-8m, low profiles, probably European rather than British, and are currently very taken with N+B and Laika.

They are definitely high-end, currently pricing up at 130k and 115k. What's in the midle ground? Carthago, Dethleffs?

The main reason for not going British is we don't need UK-specific things, and do want Europe-based dealers.

[Spuffington]

Is it the N&D Smoov you’re looking at?

I like the idea of them but they do look very expensive for what they are.

Why did you dismiss the A class, out of interest? Even if you’re not fulltiming, a few weeks at a time is still a decent period and I think space is a useful commodity.

[Lemanandbeyond]

I agree with Spuffington, an A class feels and is much more spacious than B class.

It's all personal choice of course but in my experience a fixed bed gives you a sense of normality from home. Separate living and bedroom make for a more conventional setup.

I didn't have any issues with the size as long as you researched your stays, some sites you couldn't get on but I never struggled to find one that would let us. My last motorhome was 32ft and I towed a car on an A frame (not sure if they are allowed or not now).

We didn't have any problems in Europe with size, extended trips the extra space is very nice to have.

My parents full timed for two years in theirs which was 28ft and went all over the UK and Europe, also towed a car.

[Doofus]

Spuffington said:

Is it the N&D Smoov you’re looking at?

I like the idea of them but they do look very expensive for what they are.

Why did you dismiss the A class, out of interest? Even if you’re not fulltiming, a few weeks at a time is still a decent period and I think space is a useful commodity.

Yes, Smove and Laika Kreos. They are definitely expensive, but we're not confident about finding that middle ground. We can tell which are the lowest cost manufacturers, and who are the highest, but in the middle ground, we have no experience of what we'd be getting. Plus, we'd already kind of accepted a budget of £150k, so we tend to be looking closer to that. I'd be ecstatic if we could get cheaper, and still a decent spec.

We've moved from A-class because we only want two beds, and we're happy to have them permanent, so the additional cab/lounge height given by an A-class is superfluous. The two vans we're looking at have decent enough payloads, and the lower profile makes me a little more confident about getting into villages, towns and supermarkets (given we won't be taking a car after all). I may be wrong, but the A-classes appear more cumbersome, even though in bare measurements, there's nothing it in. Apart from in the cab itself, I can't see any difference in internal size between these vans and A-classes of the same length.

If we bring the budget down from the two we're looking at now to, say, £70-80k, will we get much more or less in terms of quality? I admit the N+B irritates me because you have to pay for a lot of extras that everyone else does as standard, and I suspect they remove some standard equipment that's fitted to the trucks when they buy them!

We think we'll be physically looking at (when we are able) low profiles, 7-8m, two permanent berths (double or two singles with the infill mattress), garage fit for a scooter and a couple of bicycles, 'UK' kitchen not needed, so hob, fridge/freezer and possible microwave, face-to-face lounge, decent awning. We like external shower outlets and external gas outlets, air suspension and/or steady legs. Things like additional leisure batteries and solar systems can be added aftermarket if necessary.

As always, happy to be corrected/guided.

[Spuffington]

Sorry, don’t have much time, but my thoughts on A class are as follows:

As you say, whether you chose a 7 or 8m Motorhome, it matters little whether it’s a low profile, a class or Luton style coachbuilt. The length is the length and arguably the manoeuvring will be the same. The benefit you get from an a class is the additional living space. It’s more noticeable obviously in headroom and although you might not feel you’d use it, it’s very pleasing to have and in my opinion more comfortable overall. It’s just less claustrophobic.

A classes are also, in general, better insulated (both sound and thermally) than their traditional coachbuilt cousins. That’s because the thing is built from the ground up as a Motorhome and insulated accordingly. There are generally no draughts in the front so warmer on the whole as most have just one or no doors in the forward section.

All of these things are easy to overlook when you’re focussed on layout but are real game changers when you spend more time in a van.

Someone mentioned on another thread, the best van you but will be your second. For me, it’s my third. I was so hell bent on my first being the layout I wanted, I listened to nobody. The second gave me a good idea and was a great van, apart from the creature comforts I needed when fulltiming. My current van is perfect. But it’s probably only because I went through the various iterations beforehand.

I appreciate you don’t want to go through that process (no one does), but I would be excluding a class because of a perception of them being difficult or clunky. By keeping them on the list, you aren’t narrowing yourself too much too soon

I’ll have a think about middle ground brands but given your budget (and comfort in spending up to it), I’m surprised so far at your choices. But I do respect your reasons. However you have a very good budget to really find something incredible.

[Doofus]

Thank you for taking the time.

Spuffington said:

I’ll have a think about middle ground brands but given your budget (and comfort in spending up to it), I’m surprised so far at your choices. But I do respect your reasons. However you have a very good budget to really find something incredible.

I'm intrigued as to why our choices surprise you...

[oblio]

Doofus said:

Yes, Smove and Laika Kreos. They are definitely expensive, but we're not confident about finding that middle ground. We can tell which are the lowest cost manufacturers, and who are the highest, but in the middle ground, we have no experience of what we'd be getting. Plus, we'd already kind of accepted a budget of £150k, so we tend to be looking closer to that. I'd be ecstatic if we could get cheaper, and still a decent spec.

We've moved from A-class because we only want two beds, and we're happy to have them permanent, so the additional cab/lounge height given by an A-class is superfluous. The two vans we're looking at have decent enough payloads, and the lower profile makes me a little more confident about getting into villages, towns and supermarkets (given we won't be taking a car after all). I may be wrong, but the A-classes appear more cumbersome, even though in bare measurements, there's nothing it in. Apart from in the cab itself, I can't see any difference in internal size between these vans and A-classes of the same length.

If we bring the budget down from the two we're looking at now to, say, £70-80k, will we get much more or less in terms of quality? I admit the N+B irritates me because you have to pay for a lot of extras that everyone else does as standard, and I suspect they remove some standard equipment that's fitted to the trucks when they buy them!

We think we'll be physically looking at (when we are able) low profiles, 7-8m, two permanent berths (double or two singles with the infill mattress), garage fit for a scooter and a couple of bicycles, 'UK' kitchen not needed, so hob, fridge/freezer and possible microwave, face-to-face lounge, decent awning. We like external shower outlets and external gas outlets, air suspension and/or steady legs. Things like additional leisure batteries and solar systems can be added aftermarket if necessary.

As always, happy to be corrected/guided.

Given the desire for a shorter MH the payload discussion is extra important

btw we have the automatic levelling system (E&P) on ours. It came with the MH as we always buy second hand. I wouldn't have thought to pay c.£5k for a new system but now we have it, I wouldn't be without it. Next time we upgrade our MH I'm taking it with me. Superb stuff - makes a big difference to levelling and also reduces any rock and roll too.

It also saves having to carry levelling blocks although I do carry 4 pieces of wood around 16 inch square to put under the feet if we are on soft ground...just in case.

I'm not sure of the weight of the system so it would probably be best to check that too when/if you spec it.

[smifffymoto]

Whilst never owning one,the Dethleffs Alpa range is impressive for 2 person living.

[feef]

How about a 5th wheel? Better than a normal caravan and more versatile than a camper once at a destination