Fifth Gear 200mph car
Discussion
M@H said:
I work for Fifth Gear.
One of our current projects is to attempt 200mph in a modified Esprit.
One wonders why Fifth Gear didn't approach PH before kicking off with the Lotus. I would wager that this thread has produced more food for thought (and indeed the Cosworth that has done 201.8) than the initial "brainstorm" session that decided on using the Lotus in the first place...
Matt.
There is a bit of niaivety on here chaps – but I suppose that is unsurprising.
The 200mph project is like every other feature on these programmes – an idea dreamt up by a researcher/member of the production team and developed into a story.
The three presenters sitting around brainstorming and ‘coming up with the idea of the Lotus’ were simply acting out a script.
I understand that the Lotus was chosen after a fair bit of research which did indeed look at aerodynamics and power potential. There were also discussions about gearboxes before the car was even bought. Aerodynamics are critical at such high speeds and the Cerbera is not terribly aerodynamic. Nor are the Japanese cars mentioned.
The comment about perhaps the PH forum should have been consulted is interesting, as the original production team person in question is a PH member. He is also a TVR owner (of the AJP powered variety).
Finally there was a comment earlier about using a Tuscan Challenge car. Firstly it is a purpose designed race car and thus not such a good story. Secondly the Tuscans have such appalling aerodynamics that pushing them through 200mph would in practice be very difficult.
I have driven mine down the runway at Bruntingthorpe and in 5th gear with fairly high revs the car is very unstable. The one piece bonnet ‘inflates’ and tries to rip itself to pieces. The open top creates a huge amount of drag. The standard gearbox is not geared to achieve 200mph and I question whether the engine has enough power to overcome the aero drag even if theoretically the gearbox ratios could achieve it. (My two gentle runs down the runway were purely a test to see if we had cured an oil leak from the previous race by the way
) The Tuscan racer which suffered an engine blow up at Mania 2 years ago was a two seater running a 4.5 AJP road car engine, with race throttle bodies. Unfortunately there was no rev limiter on the ECU and the pilot at the time got a bit carried away. Had it been a race engine the factory would have submitted a very large bill to the lessee and rightly so!
griff2be said:
bayliss said:
I work for Fifth Gear.
One of our current projects is to attempt 200mph in a modified Esprit.
One wonders why Fifth Gear didn't approach PH before kicking off with the Lotus. I would wager that this thread has produced more food for thought (and indeed the Cosworth that has done 201.8) than the initial "brainstorm" session that decided on using the Lotus in the first place...
Matt.
There is a bit of niaivety on here chaps – but I suppose that is unsurprising.
The comment about perhaps the PH forum should have been consulted is interesting, as the original production team person in question is a PH member. He is also a TVR owner (of the AJP powered variety).
I never said "should have" it just seemed an odd thread to start after the event rather than before. Now we've already got to see the whole thing kick off with the Lotus on TV already, so if we suggested a different/better approach it's already too late for the project..
griff2be said:
Finally there was a comment earlier about using a Tuscan Challenge car. Firstly it is a purpose designed race car and thus not such a good story. Secondly the Tuscans have such appalling aerodynamics that pushing them through 200mph would in practice be very difficult.
Well that was me again, and it was just an idle thought.. I've not owned one so was just hypothesising.
Clearly you have a lot more information about the whole "story" and the "script" so I'd be very interested to know what happens next
I guess as its filmed a while in advance you will already know the outcome? Did the car get a Quaife box in the end..? Cheers
Matt
4wd said:
The aerodynamics of a supra are fine. They consitently produce +200mph runs with them. I think the lotus is the questionable one, aerodynamically. Has it even been done once?
I was thinking something similar. But I think they chose the Lotus because it's British. What they really wanted was a 200mph British car under £50,000 and figured the Lotus fitted the bill... Otherwise they'd have gone Supra/Skyline (1000bhp anybody?) surely.
M@H said:
Some articulate comments that would be too long to quote
Hi Matt - sorry - I wasn't trying to be critical of your thoughts. I read the original post from the 5th Gear guy as a request to hear from anyone who had undertaken a similar project rather than how they should go about their own.
I know the chap who worked for 5th Gear and was running the Lotus project - I haven't spoken to him for a little while and noticed that he didn't appear on the credits of 5G when I saw it a couple of weeks ago.
I haven't seen the recent programme and I don't know where the Lotus project has got to. I know the race mechanic who is doing some of the work on the car, but we haven't ever discussed it.
The gearbox always needed to be replaced and my friend was with me last summer when we picked up my race 'box from Competition Transmissions. He took the opportunity to quiz Bernie at CTS about boxes which could handle high power for the purpose of this project.
That is the limit of my knowledge - though to be honest if I knew more I wouldn't betray confidences - particularly if the TV programme hasn't been aired.
Re the Tuscan - when I'm in the pub the Tuscan is a 200mph race car
The reality is whilst it is unbelievably accelerative (and tail happy), ludicrous top speeds are not its forte. It could be re-bodied of course.... and in fact we spent some time asking TVR to modify current TVR model body shells to slip over the existing chassis to spruce up the Tuscan Challenge. But that's a different story.... griff2be said:
the Cerbera is not terribly aerodynamic. Nor are the Japanese cars mentioned.
And here you have displayed a large degree of Niaivety. A stock bodied Skyline has done over 200 mph at Bruntingthorpe ( 209 mph actually) and as stated Supras are regularly known to achieve this. Having personally driven a Supra at 198.8 mph I can attest to their stability at this speed. Please enlighten us to your experience to the contrary. These cars can easily be made with enough bhp, RELIABLY, to overcome the aerodynamics needed to achieve 200 mph. Both a Supra and a Skyline have sufficiently high gearing to achieve this with the rev limiter raised.
Turbo T said:
the Cerbera is not terribly aerodynamic. Nor are the Japanese cars mentioned.
And here you have displayed a large degree of Niaivety. A stock bodied Skyline has done over 200 mph at Bruntingthorpe ( 209 mph actually) and as stated Supras are regularly known to achieve this. Having personally driven a Supra at 198.8 mph I can attest to their stability at this speed. Please enlighten us to your experience to the contrary. These cars can easily be made with enough bhp, RELIABLY, to overcome the aerodynamics needed to achieve 200 mph. Both a Supra and a Skyline have sufficiently high gearing to achieve this with the rev limiter raised.
... well I think you cover it yourself to be honest, with your comment "These cars can easily be made with enough bhp, RELIABLY, to overcome the aerodynamics"... with the word 'overcome' the particularly important one.
The power output required to deliver extra mph at the top end increases exponetially, due to the increasing importance of aerodynamic drag (forgive me if I don't have the exact terminology right - what I mean is the relationship between extra power and extra top speed is not linear).
In other words you need less power in an aerodynamic car to achieve the same top speed as something with more drag.
I suggested that the Lotus was a more aerodynamic starting point - but no point did I say that a Cerbera or Japanese car couldn't be made to top 200mph.
You will need more power, and more power usually costs £££s.
I'm not trying to engage in a p1ssing contest - and I suspect that at worst we are violently agreeing.
We all know that the Jap cars can and have been heavily tuned. Personally I'm quite interested in the Lotus project simply because its a bit different. Which reminds me - must set the Sky + next time....
Back to the Esprit's gearbox.
If I remember correctly, the standard Esprit V8 GT allready hit the rev limiter in 5th gear at around 180mph.
Smaller tires and loosing wheight might be a good idea ... but without finding a 6speed gearbox, with a wider transmition, that can be fitted to the Esprit ... I'm afraid the only way to make it go over 200mph would be down a hill.
Thinking about it, the Esprit might have been a rather bad choice. As far as I'm aware there is no other gearbox that can be fitted to it.
If I remember correctly, the standard Esprit V8 GT allready hit the rev limiter in 5th gear at around 180mph.
Smaller tires and loosing wheight might be a good idea ... but without finding a 6speed gearbox, with a wider transmition, that can be fitted to the Esprit ... I'm afraid the only way to make it go over 200mph would be down a hill.
Thinking about it, the Esprit might have been a rather bad choice. As far as I'm aware there is no other gearbox that can be fitted to it.
Martin_S said:
Would a blown ls7 in a tr8 stand a chance? Won't be done until the end of the year though.
Boosted.
First check your gearing ratios, Boosted...then see a psychiatrist.
200mph in a Triumph?
Martin, I just realised it's already been done with a blown 3500 rv8. The janspeed car got a 200 mph plus timing ticket at le mans many years ago. There's no reason why these cars couldn't make the speed and the shells are very strong, having been over engineered. A downside could be the short wheel base. They do have a very good track record, beating many a porche/ferrari in the process, mainly stateside (IMSA)and in Oz as well. The Tullius car was very quick for a 3.9.
Boosted.
This is what you need if you want to hit 200 mph
in under one mile
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg[/IMG]
in under one mile
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg[/IMG]
OS Giken said:
This is what you need if you want to hit 200 mph
in under one mile
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg[/IMG]
Yes Keiths car is mapped by the same Tuner as mine & its very very fast, I think it eas in 3/4 mile but costs double maybe treble the cost criteria of this programme. Leon Greens Supra also uses my Tuner as mapper & is capable of similar performance & cost. Bit of a bugger having a 200mph car & being the 3rd fastest car in the stable
madrod said:
This is what you need if you want to hit 200 mph
in under one mile
[IMG]<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg</a>[/IMG]
[IMG]<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg</a>[/IMG]
Yes Keiths car is mapped by the same Tuner as mine & its very very fast, I think it eas in 3/4 mile but costs double maybe treble the cost criteria of this programme. Leon Greens Supra also uses my Tuner as mapper & is capable of similar performance & cost. Bit of a bugger having a 200mph car & being the 3rd fastest car in the stable
Hi Rod
You would be amazed how little I have had to pay out to get my car in the spec it is now
I have a good friend in Japan that bought all the new engine parts
then i had R.B Motorsport rebuild the car and new engine,gearbox
then the Autronic ECU and the mapping was done by Mark Shead at MAD.
OS Giken said:
OS Giken said:
This is what you need if you want to hit 200 mph
in under one mile
[IMG]<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg"><a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie5.jpg</a></a>[/IMG]
[IMG]<a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg"><a href="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/keithcowie/skyline%20drag%20car/keithcowie13.jpg</a></a>[/IMG]
Yes Keiths car is mapped by the same Tuner as mine & its very very fast, I think it eas in 3/4 mile but costs double maybe treble the cost criteria of this programme. Leon Greens Supra also uses my Tuner as mapper & is capable of similar performance & cost. Bit of a bugger having a 200mph car & being the 3rd fastest car in the stable
Hi Rod
You would be amazed how little I have had to pay out to get my car in the spec it is now
I have a good friend in Japan that bought all the new engine parts
then i had R.B Motorsport rebuild the car and new engine,gearbox
then the Autronic ECU and the mapping was done by Mark Shead at MAD.
Hi Kieth
Mark talks of your car like this. Mine is Monsterous,
Leons is the next stage on & yours is f***king loony.
I will be at totb chasing Leon in his Supra in the rwd category. You are going to win it arnt you, I for one will be hopeing you do. Must have a chat on the day.
Regards Rod
[
[/quote]
Hi Kieth
Mark talks of your car like this. Mine is Monsterous,
Leons is the next stage on & yours is f***king loony.
I will be at totb chasing Leon in his Supra in the rwd category. You are going to win it arnt you, I for one will be hopeing you do. Must have a chat on the day.
Regards Rod
[/quote]
Interesting you say 'chasing Leon in his supra' as he hasnt made it there the last 2 years , surely you should say chasing CRD in their supra !!!!!
As Turbo T says £25K will buy you a turn key 200 mph supra inc the car
His old car is more than capable of eclipsing 200 at brunters , handling with the best of them and then driving straight to Malaga (in comfort) ive just built and installed a new lump in it and even in heavu traffic its no chore to drive .
My car still runs the AC,stereo,sub woofer and tow bar and i use it every day .
as far as stability at speed its a one hand on the wheel at 187mph (with the AC on) i allways run the AC even at the pod , its so naff to step from the car all sweaty !!!!
Dude
[/quote]
Hi Kieth
Mark talks of your car like this. Mine is Monsterous,
Leons is the next stage on & yours is f***king loony.
I will be at totb chasing Leon in his Supra in the rwd category. You are going to win it arnt you, I for one will be hopeing you do. Must have a chat on the day.
Regards Rod
[/quote]
Interesting you say 'chasing Leon in his supra' as he hasnt made it there the last 2 years , surely you should say chasing CRD in their supra !!!!!
As Turbo T says £25K will buy you a turn key 200 mph supra inc the car
His old car is more than capable of eclipsing 200 at brunters , handling with the best of them and then driving straight to Malaga (in comfort) ive just built and installed a new lump in it and even in heavu traffic its no chore to drive .
My car still runs the AC,stereo,sub woofer and tow bar and i use it every day .
as far as stability at speed its a one hand on the wheel at 187mph (with the AC on) i allways run the AC even at the pod , its so naff to step from the car all sweaty !!!!
Dude
I think the Esprit is not such a bad choice.
The engine is capable of producing big power relatively easily. The GT1 versions did indeed compete with ( and beat ) Maclaren F1's - even if they broke a little too often.
Of course the gearbox has to go - Quaife supplied a suitable sequential box I believe.
So the car can do it. Not sure if it might manage it at Brunters however...
The engine is capable of producing big power relatively easily. The GT1 versions did indeed compete with ( and beat ) Maclaren F1's - even if they broke a little too often.
Of course the gearbox has to go - Quaife supplied a suitable sequential box I believe.
So the car can do it. Not sure if it might manage it at Brunters however...
In terms of what car would be a good choice you must consider 0.5CdA for each model. For comparison:
165mph Noble M12 GTO-3R 12761
170mph Lotus Esprit 14037
185mph Cerbera 4.5 15075
189mph Porsche 996TT (Standard) 16307
190mph Tuscan S 17587
And for the "Been there Done That" brigade:
Diablo SV 16979
Zonda 19185
Koenigsegg 21105
Mac F1 22324
And the reason why it's so easy to get a bike to 200mph
186mph Superblackbird 38999
165mph Noble M12 GTO-3R 12761
170mph Lotus Esprit 14037
185mph Cerbera 4.5 15075
189mph Porsche 996TT (Standard) 16307
190mph Tuscan S 17587
And for the "Been there Done That" brigade:
Diablo SV 16979
Zonda 19185
Koenigsegg 21105
Mac F1 22324
And the reason why it's so easy to get a bike to 200mph
186mph Superblackbird 38999
Mr10secs said:
Interesting you say 'chasing Leon in his supra' as he hasnt made it there the last 2 years , surely you should say chasing CRD in their supra !!!!!
Not really interested in the CRD car, Friendly rivalry with Leon.I keep seeing pictures on men & motors of him beating my Saff in the rwd final of totb1.
We both didnt appear last year as both cars broke two days before the event. Both at M.A.Developments for final testing ,Leon went out first & his engine died & I followed him & broke a custom driveshaft, so both out. We will attempt to be there this time.
[/quote]
Hi Kieth
Mark talks of your car like this. Mine is Monsterous,
Leons is the next stage on & yours is f***king loony.
I will be at totb chasing Leon in his Supra in the rwd category. You are going to win it arnt you, I for one will be hopeing you do. Must have a chat on the day.
Regards Rod
[/quote]
Hi Rod
Yes we will have to meet up sometime,i am looking to come down south with my car soon,hope to get Mark to play with the ecu a bit more for me.
Any idea how Sunny is getting on with his car
will he be running his car at totb
thanks Keith
>> Edited by OS Giken on Friday 15th April 21:53
www.T04R.com loads of cars on here sub £50K cost that will break 200mph.
Supra 6 speed is the easy way to get 200mph, I've seen it done a few times, the speed being calculated on the RPM of course.
Even mine can rev out in 6th on a very long road!.
Supra 6 speed is the easy way to get 200mph, I've seen it done a few times, the speed being calculated on the RPM of course.
Even mine can rev out in 6th on a very long road!.
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