Shown up by a 330d saloon
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
Once on boost your away, going about 80% as fast as you would if you were driving hard... use that extra 1500rpm in my car over 2500rpm and you only get an extra 17bhp, use the extra 3000rpm in the petrol and you get another 75bhp!!!
Is another way of looking at it that (the engine at least) doesn't really do 5.10ths - it's doing 8.10ths almost all the time?
Mr Whippy said:
I've done the silliest thing in having a fun petrol hatch and going to the modern derv equivalent, and even with mapping, being lighter, same suspension all round, and the same kit inside, the derv just IS NOT fun in the same way the petrol is. Hit an empty moor road for a hoon and NO MATTER WHAT, I'd take the petrol!
Is the diesel lighter? Normally diesel installations are significantly heavier than petrol - you often see the comment in new car launches that the diesel version chassis feels 'heavier' and tends to understeer more.
deva link said:
Mr Whippy said:
Once on boost your away, going about 80% as fast as you would if you were driving hard... use that extra 1500rpm in my car over 2500rpm and you only get an extra 17bhp, use the extra 3000rpm in the petrol and you get another 75bhp!!!
Is another way of looking at it that (the engine at least) doesn't really do 5.10ths - it's doing 8.10ths almost all the time?
Mr Whippy said:
I've done the silliest thing in having a fun petrol hatch and going to the modern derv equivalent, and even with mapping, being lighter, same suspension all round, and the same kit inside, the derv just IS NOT fun in the same way the petrol is. Hit an empty moor road for a hoon and NO MATTER WHAT, I'd take the petrol!
Is the diesel lighter? Normally diesel installations are significantly heavier than petrol - you often see the comment in new car launches that the diesel version chassis feels 'heavier' and tends to understeer more.
Yeah, the engine is always doing it's job too well if anything. I find myself driving quicker day to day now in my Hdi than my Gti, but the problem is I now find that when I want to go faster I can't, because there is little more to give.
I go to overtake, use a bit more revs or a lower gear, or put the throttle to the floor, and it just DOESN'T do anything significant vs the petrol. The bottom end feels strong, so you expect a strong top-end, but it just does the opposite!
So in a way it's great day to day, easy accessible efficient performance, but your lulled into the idea that because you think your only using 5/10ths it's got LOADS to come, but it hasn't at all
I'm working on a custom remap (DIY) to add a bit more torque, but lots more power. I'm hoping the car will feel more lively then. It's got about 175lbft of torque as it is, but it quickly drops off. I'm aiming to plateau the torque somewhat after peak toruqe, to give the car a reason to rev... seems silly to throw away the potential of maybe 215lbft, but it comes at the cost of more apparent turbo boost lag to hit the new higher boost, and making the car just a faster version of dull
I find it fine day to day, and would rather give it a reason to rev and a dynamic character, than just make it quicker overall and be back at square one with a dull overall delivery!
Pretty sure the derv is lighter, book weight is 1135kg (Hdi) vs 1215kg(Gti), though I plan to go weigh it soon to calibrate my Gtech Pro properly.
My Hdi certainly doesn't understeer, if anything it's more snappy at the limit and prone to oversteer than the Gti which in comparison felt more nose heavy...!? Not sure but my brother and I recently broke an old Gti6 and he's put a Tdi engine into it and it sits marginally higher now at the front... The Gti6 block weighs alot, and the 6spd gearbox is heavier than the 5spd ones too, so it all adds up.
The figures also line up about right, with 64/36 weight distribution on the Gti vs the 60/40 for the Hdi/Tdi, the extra 80kg added purely over the front axle gives 64/36, so there must be something in it??
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 20th October 10:47
Sam_68 said:
I'm afraid that must have been more to do with Minimax's driving skills
Hi Sam. There's nowt wrong with Toms driving, he's no muppet and knows what he's doing. I'm sure he'll be along to comment, if he sees this. Mind you, this diversion is getting boring, can we get back to chipped up 330 & 535 D's
Edited by Balmoral Green on Friday 20th October 16:29
Balmoral Green said:
There was another PH thread running where someone said that if a someone got themselves a Fabia vRS (and I know that this thread is about high performance diesel cars, not bloody Skoda Fabias) they would become one of those vRS bores that are constantly harping on about how their vRS is faster than [insert any clearly faster make of car here].
Well, all I can go on is experience of real life events on real roads in the real world, just reporting what has actually happened with no bullshit. On several PH runs, everybody, with no exceptions, has been impressed with the Skodas pace. It has shown a clean pair of heels to Clio 172/182's (sorry Rob, and I know madbadger thought it was funny as hell too) and the only 182 it couldnt catch was pbirketts modified car. It walked away from minimax's TVR, so much so that he decided that it was too slow and sold it on and bought an Elise, and still he cant get away from the Furby, and Tom wont mind admitting it pisses him off no end. On toonhoon II he had wrung the Elise out completely and I was still there, pulling away from him on the open road (although unable to catch him on the twisties for obvious handling reasons). The driver of a Corrado VR6 that couldnt quite keep up asked sheepishly "I suppose you're going to tell me thats a diesel?". I also managed to eventually get past satch in his VX220 and then make better progress, although I still couldnt catch pbirkett.
Nearly everyone assumes its been chipped, it hasnt, its standard. And I would add, that I am no driving god either. OK, its doesnt do 0-60, and the handling is not up to decent hot hatch standards, but on these PH hoons cross country, the mid range is where its at, and thats what the Furby, like all diesels, does well. It may be a one trick pony, but often one trick is all you need, again, and again, and again.
So why is it faster than [insert any clearly faster make of car here]? Well it isnt of course, it just is for those mid range jousts cross country when its already rolling and its in the right torque band, and then it really is quicker than much quicker cars, but only under those particular circumstances. Like I said, one trick pony, but luckily where it really counts.
See, i've become one of those vRS bores
Mind you, it didnt seem very quick when me & Tom & Lois were all in the Furby pootling along at 135 in lane 1 and byff came past us like we were standing still
Well, all I can go on is experience of real life events on real roads in the real world, just reporting what has actually happened with no bullshit. On several PH runs, everybody, with no exceptions, has been impressed with the Skodas pace. It has shown a clean pair of heels to Clio 172/182's (sorry Rob, and I know madbadger thought it was funny as hell too) and the only 182 it couldnt catch was pbirketts modified car. It walked away from minimax's TVR, so much so that he decided that it was too slow and sold it on and bought an Elise, and still he cant get away from the Furby, and Tom wont mind admitting it pisses him off no end. On toonhoon II he had wrung the Elise out completely and I was still there, pulling away from him on the open road (although unable to catch him on the twisties for obvious handling reasons). The driver of a Corrado VR6 that couldnt quite keep up asked sheepishly "I suppose you're going to tell me thats a diesel?". I also managed to eventually get past satch in his VX220 and then make better progress, although I still couldnt catch pbirkett.
Nearly everyone assumes its been chipped, it hasnt, its standard. And I would add, that I am no driving god either. OK, its doesnt do 0-60, and the handling is not up to decent hot hatch standards, but on these PH hoons cross country, the mid range is where its at, and thats what the Furby, like all diesels, does well. It may be a one trick pony, but often one trick is all you need, again, and again, and again.
So why is it faster than [insert any clearly faster make of car here]? Well it isnt of course, it just is for those mid range jousts cross country when its already rolling and its in the right torque band, and then it really is quicker than much quicker cars, but only under those particular circumstances. Like I said, one trick pony, but luckily where it really counts.
See, i've become one of those vRS bores
Mind you, it didnt seem very quick when me & Tom & Lois were all in the Furby pootling along at 135 in lane 1 and byff came past us like we were standing still
Edited by Balmoral Green on Thursday 19th October 19:55
a balanced and reasonable post war8en.
your vRS was a lot quicker than the TVR (S3 in good condition) in all circumstances, I remember when we joined the A1 southbound at wetherby and I wrung the shit out of it all the way through the gears only to have you sail past...happy I was not
the Elise is doubtless quicker to 60 overall, but above 30 there's damn all difference and above 70mph when my aerodynamics come in to play the speed of the furby is all too evident - you sail past once again.
when we were following byff in his cerb off the roundabout and he booted it, the rate at which he was outdragging us was nowhere near what I expected (and it's fair to say that byff is one of the fastest drivers i've met) until we got past 100 when of course he wasted us
Sam_68 said:
Balmoral Green said:
minimax... bought an Elise, and still he cant get away from the Furby
As much as I like the little VAG turbodiesels myself (you may recall that I was one of the people raving about them on the thread to which you refer), I'm afraid that must have been more to do with Minimax's driving skills than the pace of the Fabia VRs.
modesty would normally prevent me from answering this but I think it's safe to say that i'm a pretty quick driver and I dare say quite a few from this forum if they thought my pride was injured would say so
what we are describing here is a straight line drag up a slip road on to a dual carriageway - I was wringing the S series for absolutely all it was worth - and war8en kept up with me and then went by me easily. this also demonstrates what a slow car even a well maintained S is but nonetheless the fact remains that if you can keep a car weighing a ton and with 300lb/ft on the boil it will be quick.
Sam_68 said:
Lazily driven Ibiza vs. lazily driven Elise, the TDi could certainly keep up (indeed, it was without a doubt the faster car if you wanted to drive along in a high gear with your thumb up your arse and your brain in neutral), but if the Elise was driven properly (ie. keeping the engine in the powerband), the Ibiza wouldn't see which way it went, even on straight roads.
I haven't a clue how good a driver you are and manners forbid me from questioning you. however the facts are that in a straight line his vRS walks away from my Elise 135 from 50odd upwards.
around a twisty country lane I dare say that I would expect to gain significant ground on a vRS but then that's obvious isn't it?
minimax said:
Sam_68 said:
Lazily driven Ibiza vs. lazily driven Elise, the TDi could certainly keep up (indeed, it was without a doubt the faster car if you wanted to drive along in a high gear with your thumb up your arse and your brain in neutral), but if the Elise was driven properly (ie. keeping the engine in the powerband), the Ibiza wouldn't see which way it went, even on straight roads.
I haven't a clue how good a driver you are and manners forbid me from questioning you. however the facts are that in a straight line his vRS walks away from my Elise 135 from 50odd upwards.
around a twisty country lane I dare say that I would expect to gain significant ground on a vRS but then that's obvious isn't it?
My post wasn't intended to be provocative, Minimax, just that my personal experience is that with an identical driver (me!), the Elise is significantly quicker in a straight line than the Ibiza FR (which is, to all intents and purposes an identical car to the Skoda Fabia VRs). Admittedly, my back-to-back experience of the cars was with a Sport 160 Elise fitted with a close ratio gearbox, which could simply murder the Fabia, at any speed, but even a bog standard 118bhp Lizzie certainly shouln't be slower than a Fabia except, perhaps, above 100mph. They have virtually identical top speeds (127mph), so they both run out of acceleration altogether at the same point.
But if you don't believe me, perhaps the bare figures from respective road test results might convince you:
Skoda Fabia VRs:
0-60mph = 8.1 seconds
0-100mph = 24 seconds
Therefore, through the gears:
60-100mph = 24-8.1 = 15.9 seconds.
Standard, 118bhp Elise:
0-60 = 5.7 seconds
0-100 = 17 seconds
Therefore, through the gears:
60-100mph = 17 - 5.7 = 11.3 seconds.
In other words, if both drivers, using correct gears, accelerate from 60mph to 100mph, the Elise will get there over 4.5 seconds earlier...an age in acceleration terms. We aren't talking about marginal advantages of fractions of a second, here!
Certainly, to extract that level of performance the Elise driver will need to be in the right gear at the right time and use all the revs, whereas the Skoda driver will probably just have to floor the throttle, but if a standard VRs 'walks away' from your Elise, there can be only 2 conclusions:
1) There is something wrong with your Elise
2) You are in the wrong gear.
Again, I'd stress that I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I love the little VAG TDi's to bits, but your statement simply doesn't tally with either my personal experience or with published, accurately timed road test results.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 20th October 18:09
Sam_68 said:
minimax said:
Sam_68 said:
Lazily driven Ibiza vs. lazily driven Elise, the TDi could certainly keep up (indeed, it was without a doubt the faster car if you wanted to drive along in a high gear with your thumb up your arse and your brain in neutral), but if the Elise was driven properly (ie. keeping the engine in the powerband), the Ibiza wouldn't see which way it went, even on straight roads.
I haven't a clue how good a driver you are and manners forbid me from questioning you. however the facts are that in a straight line his vRS walks away from my Elise 135 from 50odd upwards.
around a twisty country lane I dare say that I would expect to gain significant ground on a vRS but then that's obvious isn't it?
My post wasn't intended to be provocative, Minimax, just that my personal experience is that with an identical driver (me!), the Elise is significantly quicker in a straight line than the Ibiza FR (which is, to all intents and purposes an identical car to the Skoda Fabia VRs). Admittedly, my back-to-back experience of the cars was with a Sport 160 Elise fitted with a close ratio gearbox, which could simply murder the Fabia, at any speed, but even a bog standard 118bhp Lizzie certainly shouln't be slower than a Fabia except, perhaps, above 100mph. They have virtually identical top speeds (127mph), so they both run out of acceleration altogether at the same point.
But if you don't believe me, perhaps the bare figures from respective road test results might convince you:
Skoda Fabia VRs:
0-60mph = 8.1 seconds
0-100mph = 24 seconds
Therefore, through the gears:
60-100mph = 24-8.1 = 15.9 seconds.
Standard, 118bhp Elise:
0-60 = 5.7 seconds
0-100 = 17 seconds
Therefore, through the gears:
60-100mph = 17 - 5.7 = 11.3 seconds.
In other words, if both drivers, using correct gears, accelerate from 60mph to 100mph, the Elise will get there over 4.5 seconds earlier...an age in acceleration terms. We aren't talking about marginal advantages of fractions of a second, here!
Certainly, to extract that level of performance the Elise driver will need to be in the right gear at the right time and use all the revs, whereas the Skoda driver will probably just have to floor the throttle, but if a standard VRs 'walks away' from your Elise, there can be only 2 conclusions:
1) There is something wrong with your Elise
2) You are in the wrong gear.
Again, I'd stress that I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I love the little VAG TDi's to bits, but your statement simply doesn't tally with either my personal experience or with published, accurately timed road test results.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 20th October 18:09
i'm not saying you're lying at all, not a bit of it - but warren and I didn't make up our story, and it's not the first time it's happened. I wonder if mayber there is something amiss with my motor...or maybe warren had a jump on me those other (5 or so, warren?) times..anyway, it's puzzling. hey ho. i'm going to get drunken in sheff with my bro now in my slow Elise (
) so i'll continue battle on monday 
There must be more to this than meets the eye, certainly there is more to it than just figures. I dont buy those figures anyway, Skoda quote 9.6 which is very conservative, Autocar quote 7.1 and I have seen 6.9 on one test too. But we arent talking about 0-60 anyway, its crap at that. At higher dual carriageway/motorway speeds perhaps there is some weird gearing/torque effect as I find that if I rag it, its slower than if I short shift it, so maybe its not as simple as going through the gears as in the above figures. A higher gear gives a higher road mph, and if the torque can pull it? I just dont know. But surely not everyone I come across on the road is a muppet who cant drive their reasonably quick car very swiftly? As Tom and I have said, out on the road, the little oil burner with the wrong badge does so much better than its weedy 130bhp would suggest. Thats just the way it is, beats me why? Sometimes there just isnt an explanantion. I only come out in this car on the hoons because its a cheap trip fuel wise and a bit more nimble than BG which can be a bit of a handfull. For a run like VW or Le Mans, I take BG, now that really is 
in' fast, despite being as big as a house and weighing as much too.
btw, I would like to say, I didnt buy the Furby out of choice, I am a reluctant fan despite how it may come across. Its a company car and I had a limited selection of crap cheap five door budget diesel cars, I just picked the least crap one, thats all. I wouldnt buy one myself. Having said that, it is so much better than most folks think. The fact that we are having this debate over a bloody diesel Fabia shows that much at least.
in' fast, despite being as big as a house and weighing as much too. btw, I would like to say, I didnt buy the Furby out of choice, I am a reluctant fan despite how it may come across. Its a company car and I had a limited selection of crap cheap five door budget diesel cars, I just picked the least crap one, thats all. I wouldnt buy one myself. Having said that, it is so much better than most folks think. The fact that we are having this debate over a bloody diesel Fabia shows that much at least.
I HATE GATSO said:
Sam_68 said:
Personally, I reckon BG has had his car chipped and isn't telling anyone, to make himself look like a driving God!
Time to come clean, BG?
Time to come clean, BG?
thats what i think too If there werent insurance and warranty issues, what with it being a co' car and all, I would love to have it chipped, they must go like stink.
This is an interesting thread...
I agree an Elise should not be burned off by a standard vRS.
Thing is, i have been in Tom's elise, and i know he knows how to drive it fast. I've know because i've been a passenger, and i know because i was following him a couple of cars behind on the first toon hoon.
When i went in it, it was the first time i've been in an elise. They are quick off the line, not as quick as i thought it might be above 60... but still i'd expect it to have the better of a std vRS.
The figures dont add up though. The 135 sport should be what, 160-170 bhp/tonne like my clio? Should be faster.
BG, are you sure that car of yours isnt chipped?
I will say though the vRS is a quicker car than it has any right to be. Its PWR is a pathetic 100 bhp per tonne, and a car with a PWR like that should not be able to accelerate like it does. In my experience though, it was only about as quick as cars like Ford Pumas and Alfa 2.0 147s. The Puma does have a PWR of about 120 bhp per tonne so for a car with a 15 - 20% worse PWR should not be able to keep up.
I do agree with mr whippy though, i found myself driving the little vRS quicker on average than i do the 182. So much more effortless as well. Could dial up anti-social bursts of acceleration with little effort on the motorways. Made me look like a right hooligan When i hit the lanes though, it didnt seem to have much extra to give performance wise above what i accessed on a daily basis.
They must be fairly potent when chipped. My mate had a 1.9 Ibiza Sport TDI chipped by Jabba Sport to an alleged 180 bhp, and that fair shifted. It might not have been as quick as it felt, but it *felt* very quick. I would have been hooked if it had a better engine note and more responsive throttle. Handling could be worked on, but there was nothing much to do about the throttle response and engine note. Incidentally, he sold it for a petrol model only months after he had it chipped.
I agree an Elise should not be burned off by a standard vRS.
Thing is, i have been in Tom's elise, and i know he knows how to drive it fast. I've know because i've been a passenger, and i know because i was following him a couple of cars behind on the first toon hoon.
When i went in it, it was the first time i've been in an elise. They are quick off the line, not as quick as i thought it might be above 60... but still i'd expect it to have the better of a std vRS.
The figures dont add up though. The 135 sport should be what, 160-170 bhp/tonne like my clio? Should be faster.
BG, are you sure that car of yours isnt chipped?
I will say though the vRS is a quicker car than it has any right to be. Its PWR is a pathetic 100 bhp per tonne, and a car with a PWR like that should not be able to accelerate like it does. In my experience though, it was only about as quick as cars like Ford Pumas and Alfa 2.0 147s. The Puma does have a PWR of about 120 bhp per tonne so for a car with a 15 - 20% worse PWR should not be able to keep up.
I do agree with mr whippy though, i found myself driving the little vRS quicker on average than i do the 182. So much more effortless as well. Could dial up anti-social bursts of acceleration with little effort on the motorways. Made me look like a right hooligan
When i hit the lanes though, it didnt seem to have much extra to give performance wise above what i accessed on a daily basis. They must be fairly potent when chipped. My mate had a 1.9 Ibiza Sport TDI chipped by Jabba Sport to an alleged 180 bhp, and that fair shifted. It might not have been as quick as it felt, but it *felt* very quick. I would have been hooked if it had a better engine note and more responsive throttle. Handling could be worked on, but there was nothing much to do about the throttle response and engine note. Incidentally, he sold it for a petrol model only months after he had it chipped.
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