RE: Tygan Speedster
Discussion
I wonder if Tygan will be able to make the company work?
The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.
The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Oh, and Chesil did the 'dealer-tie-in' with a company called Studio-G in Woking (anyone remember them?) and an expensive 1-25 Speedster called the Speedster 2; therefore, the Gmund and Paul Stephens collaborations seem even more like warmed over ideas.
The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.
The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Oh, and Chesil did the 'dealer-tie-in' with a company called Studio-G in Woking (anyone remember them?) and an expensive 1-25 Speedster called the Speedster 2; therefore, the Gmund and Paul Stephens collaborations seem even more like warmed over ideas.
Edited by nomis on Monday 3rd March 17:08
nomis said:
but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Agreed!I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
So much so that after going to Chesil last summer and being shocked atthe car and the people I just bought an ex demo PGO Cevennes.
Similar niche, far more modern look, feel equipment and performance.
And for far less cash than a similarly spec'ed Tygan.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 17:47
[quote=nomis]I wonder if Tygan will be able to make the company work?
The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.[quote]
I think that's a little uncharatable. I bought a Chesil deluxe IRS chassis, 1.8 motor & body from the factory back in 2004. It took me 18mth to complete the build (with Chesil parts) and I ran it for a further 18mths. The car aged well and looked like absolute brand new when I sold it. In fact, if you were at MPH '06 in Earls Court, it was my car on the Chesil stand. As an ex-owner, I'm well placed to comment on the build and I'd say it was far superior to the majority of any other replica cars out there. If Tygan have built on this and made it better, then good on 'em, but it wasn't a bad car to begin with.
[quote=nomis]The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.[quote]
Of course £30K is expensive, but you must look beyond the sum of it's parts. Like any kit / low volume car, it's a massively labour intensive thing to get to market. The basic Chesil could be built for about £15K if you got your hands dirty, then name your price for specing one to the hilt. But what's wrong with that? I think the BMW 3-series is the most overpriced saloon on the market, but plenty of people believe them to be good value.
The problem companies like Chesil / Tygan face these days, is people begrudging them actually making any money. With all the costs associated with making a small amount of cars, from a small factory in very expensive England (a country losing so much manufacturing to cheaper off-shore competitors), of course making a decent product is going to cost money. A bespoke interior for a Tygan is probably going to cost 10 times what a mainstream manufacturer is going to get with their economies of scale.
Replica values vs original - of course the original car is going to be worth so much more, but mechanically they are identical. In the early days, Porsche had no money, so built the 356 with modified a Beetle chassis and a modified Beetle engine. If you're going to make a dimensionally / visually identical car, then making it mechanically identical is surely the way forwards. I'd much rather have a true homage to the original, built in the same spirit, using the same parts (with modern knowhow), to make it a true replica, instead of some kind of interpretation, with a missmatch of parts.
[quote=nomis]I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?[quote]
The original company was run by Peter since the 80's. He wasn't the easiest guy in the world to get on with, but any issues were always sorted and I got more good-will from them than I would expect from any mainstram menufacturer. It's part of the charm ;-)
Peter sold the company to a group of new owners, who I had limited dealings with. None of which were really that positive (inc them damaging my car whilst showing it at Earl's Court and leaving it outside in the rain for nearly 2 weeks). I don't think they were totally clued up with what they were doing and hence it going belly up about 12mths later.
I really do miss my Chesil, it was a fantastic car to own and drive. Wherever it went, it commanded massive respect and even tho' it wore Porsche badged, I always told people itwas a replica. 99.9% of the people I spoke to liked and respected the car. Only that last 0.1% scoffed at it not being original. Each to their own. If you don't like these cars on the basis that they're not originals, that's fine, but you can't knock their unrelenting faithfulness to the original. If I could have afforded to keep my Speedster and still buy my Atom, then I would have done. Unfortunately I couldn't, so I'll just have to hope that Tygan comtinue to make faithful, replicas for a good few years to come.
I'll end by saying, watch out for high horse syndrome and take some time to actually try out one of these cars. If you can get close to an original Speedster for comparisson (I was lucky enough to do just that), then all the better. It'll help you realise just what Chesil / Tygan have done / are doing. Keep an open mind.
The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.[quote]
I think that's a little uncharatable. I bought a Chesil deluxe IRS chassis, 1.8 motor & body from the factory back in 2004. It took me 18mth to complete the build (with Chesil parts) and I ran it for a further 18mths. The car aged well and looked like absolute brand new when I sold it. In fact, if you were at MPH '06 in Earls Court, it was my car on the Chesil stand. As an ex-owner, I'm well placed to comment on the build and I'd say it was far superior to the majority of any other replica cars out there. If Tygan have built on this and made it better, then good on 'em, but it wasn't a bad car to begin with.
[quote=nomis]The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.[quote]
Of course £30K is expensive, but you must look beyond the sum of it's parts. Like any kit / low volume car, it's a massively labour intensive thing to get to market. The basic Chesil could be built for about £15K if you got your hands dirty, then name your price for specing one to the hilt. But what's wrong with that? I think the BMW 3-series is the most overpriced saloon on the market, but plenty of people believe them to be good value.
The problem companies like Chesil / Tygan face these days, is people begrudging them actually making any money. With all the costs associated with making a small amount of cars, from a small factory in very expensive England (a country losing so much manufacturing to cheaper off-shore competitors), of course making a decent product is going to cost money. A bespoke interior for a Tygan is probably going to cost 10 times what a mainstream manufacturer is going to get with their economies of scale.
Replica values vs original - of course the original car is going to be worth so much more, but mechanically they are identical. In the early days, Porsche had no money, so built the 356 with modified a Beetle chassis and a modified Beetle engine. If you're going to make a dimensionally / visually identical car, then making it mechanically identical is surely the way forwards. I'd much rather have a true homage to the original, built in the same spirit, using the same parts (with modern knowhow), to make it a true replica, instead of some kind of interpretation, with a missmatch of parts.
[quote=nomis]I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?[quote]
The original company was run by Peter since the 80's. He wasn't the easiest guy in the world to get on with, but any issues were always sorted and I got more good-will from them than I would expect from any mainstram menufacturer. It's part of the charm ;-)
Peter sold the company to a group of new owners, who I had limited dealings with. None of which were really that positive (inc them damaging my car whilst showing it at Earl's Court and leaving it outside in the rain for nearly 2 weeks). I don't think they were totally clued up with what they were doing and hence it going belly up about 12mths later.
I really do miss my Chesil, it was a fantastic car to own and drive. Wherever it went, it commanded massive respect and even tho' it wore Porsche badged, I always told people itwas a replica. 99.9% of the people I spoke to liked and respected the car. Only that last 0.1% scoffed at it not being original. Each to their own. If you don't like these cars on the basis that they're not originals, that's fine, but you can't knock their unrelenting faithfulness to the original. If I could have afforded to keep my Speedster and still buy my Atom, then I would have done. Unfortunately I couldn't, so I'll just have to hope that Tygan comtinue to make faithful, replicas for a good few years to come.
I'll end by saying, watch out for high horse syndrome and take some time to actually try out one of these cars. If you can get close to an original Speedster for comparisson (I was lucky enough to do just that), then all the better. It'll help you realise just what Chesil / Tygan have done / are doing. Keep an open mind.
[quote=odyssey2200
Agreed!
So much so that after going to Chesil last summer and being shocked atthe car and the people I just bought an ex demo PGO Cevennes.
Similar niche, far more modern look, feel equipment and performance.
And for far less cash than a similarly spec'ed Tygan.
[/quote]
I agree with you about the people that were incharge of Chesil back then, but you can't compare a Chesil to a PGO.
The Chesil is a faithful replica, not a low volume car that has nothing to do with the original car other than a vague, passing resemblence. I'm sorry, but you can't compare the 2 on any level at all. Different cars, completely different components, both built for a different market. Don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect a Chesil / Tygan will retain it's value as an acurate replica far better than a new car which looks a bit like a 356, but is made with a water cooled Pug engine. I'm not being nasty here, just saying it the way it is - my car appreciated in value over the time I owned it, not many cars will do the same.
Agreed!
So much so that after going to Chesil last summer and being shocked atthe car and the people I just bought an ex demo PGO Cevennes.
Similar niche, far more modern look, feel equipment and performance.
And for far less cash than a similarly spec'ed Tygan.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 17:47
[/quote]
I agree with you about the people that were incharge of Chesil back then, but you can't compare a Chesil to a PGO.
The Chesil is a faithful replica, not a low volume car that has nothing to do with the original car other than a vague, passing resemblence. I'm sorry, but you can't compare the 2 on any level at all. Different cars, completely different components, both built for a different market. Don't take this the wrong way, but I suspect a Chesil / Tygan will retain it's value as an acurate replica far better than a new car which looks a bit like a 356, but is made with a water cooled Pug engine. I'm not being nasty here, just saying it the way it is - my car appreciated in value over the time I owned it, not many cars will do the same.
356Speedster said:
I think that's a little uncharatable.
Sorry but when it come to spending a 5 figure sum a sports car Charity is never an consideration.Chesil/Tygan are offring a cut down Beetle floot pan with a air cooled engine, assembled from patern parts, for circa £36k for a decent spec.
Why would I possibley buy that??
I just bought a PGO Cevennes for less than that (admittedly an ex demo, but £30K buys a new one) with a modern engine, air con etc.
Equally I could have bought a PGO Speedster II which is slightly less money.
and closer to the 356 in looks.
Why spend more for an kit car built on an old floor pan with an old engine built fron pattern parts sourced from South America and less kit?
Neither are a Porsche 356 so why even pretend?
Being a close to the original is irrelevent.
I do not begrudge Tygan making a profit, just don't take the Piss
Being in business does not give then the god give right to make profit.
They have to be competitive, offer a product that the market wants at the price the market will pay.
The product is archaic, arguably second hand and over priced IMHO.
The PGO is new, modern, better specification, better performance and cheaper.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 23:02
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 23:08
Its true the original Speedster had used a shortened Beetle floorpan
but the Body was made in Steel and GRP.
And the Steel makes the Car more Stable as GRP.
You know the Test with a plasticbodied Speedster mounted on a Shortened
Beetle Chassis?
Change a wheel,and the wheels are in the air and you cant open the Doors.
Thats the old prob of the beetle chassis used Speedsters.
From the Technical Perspective is the Speedster replica from
Chamonix of Brazil (Beck Speedster in the USA)much better.
Its not a rebodied Beetle.
It use a own Chassis special made for the Stability of the GRP and not a
shortened Beetle Chassis.
A Beck Speedster runs in the 25000 USD pricerange for a Basecar.
but the Body was made in Steel and GRP.
And the Steel makes the Car more Stable as GRP.
You know the Test with a plasticbodied Speedster mounted on a Shortened
Beetle Chassis?
Change a wheel,and the wheels are in the air and you cant open the Doors.
Thats the old prob of the beetle chassis used Speedsters.
From the Technical Perspective is the Speedster replica from
Chamonix of Brazil (Beck Speedster in the USA)much better.
Its not a rebodied Beetle.
It use a own Chassis special made for the Stability of the GRP and not a
shortened Beetle Chassis.
A Beck Speedster runs in the 25000 USD pricerange for a Basecar.
356Speedster said:
I'll end by saying, watch out for high horse syndrome and take some time to actually try out one of these cars. If you can get close to an original Speedster for comparisson (I was lucky enough to do just that), then all the better. It'll help you realise just what Chesil / Tygan have done / are doing. Keep an open mind.
You seem to make the assumption that I haven’t driven a Chesil? In fact, I have, on more than one occasion. I found it to be a fun little car (when fitted with IRS and the 2.0 engine). I did also attempt to buy one from the people who owned the company prior to Tygan; however, after over a month of being messed around (with price and options) and being made promises that were broken, I regained my senses and took my business elsewhere. Start as you mean to go on and if a company offer poor customer service before the sale, imagine what they are like once you've given them your money!The 356 Speedster is an iconic car and if someone could make a quality product at a fair price, I would still be interested in owning one (like you I have been in the position to drive an original and a 356 Convertible D / 356 B Cab – and actually found the replica a more enjoyable drive, mainly due to it being less skittish on the road and not following each and every imperfection); however, this does not change my opinion of both the lack of quality of previous Chesil products and the ever-climbing over priced MSRP of the current offering.
Surely if you want a vintage Porsche you’d be better off buying a 356 Coupe for less money, or a Cab for the same/slightly more?
No high horses were ridden in the writing of this, or any other, post I make.
Edited by nomis on Tuesday 4th March 12:29
flashygee said:
Its true the original Speedster had used a shortened Beetle floorpan
but the Body was made in Steel and GRP.
And the Steel makes the Car more Stable as GRP.
You know the Test with a plasticbodied Speedster mounted on a Shortened
Beetle Chassis?
Change a wheel,and the wheels are in the air and you cant open the Doors.
Thats the old prob of the beetle chassis used Speedsters.
From the Technical Perspective is the Speedster replica from
Chamonix of Brazil (Beck Speedster in the USA)much better.
Its not a rebodied Beetle.
It use a own Chassis special made for the Stability of the GRP and not a
shortened Beetle Chassis.
A Beck Speedster runs in the 25000 USD pricerange for a Basecar.
The material has nothing to do with that - the design of the body has everything to do with it. Up until the last couple of years the ONLY convertible on the road that you could jack up one corner of without causing distortion and having doors fail to close was the Mercedes. It is however possible to add some steel substructure and create a stable platform, I managed it with my Carson topped beetle even when the roof was off. With a speedster it would be slightly better to start with because of the shorter wheelbase but a bit more of a pain to modify because of the reduced interior room.but the Body was made in Steel and GRP.
And the Steel makes the Car more Stable as GRP.
You know the Test with a plasticbodied Speedster mounted on a Shortened
Beetle Chassis?
Change a wheel,and the wheels are in the air and you cant open the Doors.
Thats the old prob of the beetle chassis used Speedsters.
From the Technical Perspective is the Speedster replica from
Chamonix of Brazil (Beck Speedster in the USA)much better.
Its not a rebodied Beetle.
It use a own Chassis special made for the Stability of the GRP and not a
shortened Beetle Chassis.
A Beck Speedster runs in the 25000 USD pricerange for a Basecar.
nomis said:
I wonder if Tygan will be able to make the company work?
The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.
The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Oh, and Chesil did the 'dealer-tie-in' with a company called Studio-G in Woking (anyone remember them?) and an expensive 1-25 Speedster called the Speedster 2; therefore, the Gmund and Paul Stephens collaborations seem even more like warmed over ideas.
We've invested about £500,000 in the company and most of this has been targetted at build quality. Don't judge Tygan by Chesil standards - it really is a completely different business, with greatly improved standards of manufacture. Chesil went out of business and Tygan purchased Chesil's assets.We've built a new factory, new manufacturing equipment, hired new staff (though hired the most experienced workers). The investors are businessmen first and car enthusiasts second. Tygan is run as a proper manufacturing business to the highest possible standards, rather than a cottage industry run by some enthusiasts, which is very much what CHesil was. We are focused on product quality and meeting the expectations of discerning owners, and we are looking to broaden the appeal of the cars away from enthusiasts to more of a lifestyle audience. THere will be more cars introduced and the 550 Spyder replica which we showed at MPH is the first of these.The panel gap on the Chesils used to be awful on a great deal of the factory built cars; they also didn't age well and despite not being a classic, looked like one after 12-months of light use.
The other problem was price. Sure a 1950's Speedster is circa £100,000 but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Oh, and Chesil did the 'dealer-tie-in' with a company called Studio-G in Woking (anyone remember them?) and an expensive 1-25 Speedster called the Speedster 2; therefore, the Gmund and Paul Stephens collaborations seem even more like warmed over ideas.
Edited by nomis on Monday 3rd March 17:08
ricola said:
hairy said:
heard of a bloke running an turbo impreza motor in one of these, was described as "frightening"
That was me, along with Porsche running gear, it was also my daily car for 5 years...I'm surprised Tygan have put Porsche badges on, Chesil never did...
odyssey2200 said:
nomis said:
but would you be willing to pay nearly £30,000 on a re-skinned, chopped chassis VW Beetle? Chesil had pushed these cars, once you factored in the necessary options, to nearly £30,000; which imho is just too much for what you were getting.
I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
Agreed!I have nothing against replicas but the quality, cost and post-sale support always seemed to put a massive damper over the Chesil name. I wonder if a new name and a 2nd batch of new owners (Chesil themselves were bought out and then sold after a few years to 'Tygan') can change the fortunes of this company?
So much so that after going to Chesil last summer and being shocked atthe car and the people I just bought an ex demo PGO Cevennes.
Similar niche, far more modern look, feel equipment and performance.
And for far less cash than a similarly spec'ed Tygan.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 17:47
DennisTheMenace said:
I live in Beaminster and havent seen a single one of these driving about , also Atom are not far away and you hardly see them either
I went to school in Crewkerne and used to see early Atoms around (this is going back a few years) - one of my friends lives on their favoured demonstration route. Haven't seen many Chesils though admittedly.They are gorgeous cars though - I had a good poke around one at the Exeter kit car show and it's one of those kits that feels like a production car, right down to a satisfying clunk of the doors.
I can't see how any car can be too reliable to feel special. Whilst I agree that apparently minor things like the noise, seating position and even smell can make a car feel special, I'm not sure that lying on your back in a puddle trying to fix it ever does.
odyssey2200 said:
356Speedster said:
I think that's a little uncharatable.
Sorry but when it come to spending a 5 figure sum a sports car Charity is never an consideration.Chesil/Tygan are offring a cut down Beetle floot pan with a air cooled engine, assembled from patern parts, for circa £36k for a decent spec.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 23:02
Edited by odyssey2200 on Monday 3rd March 23:08
Zumbruk said:
ricola said:
hairy said:
heard of a bloke running an turbo impreza motor in one of these, was described as "frightening"
That was me, along with Porsche running gear, it was also my daily car for 5 years...I'm surprised Tygan have put Porsche badges on, Chesil never did...
Mon Ami Mate said:
[ If you want a car that looks like a modern interpretation of a Speedster, but which feels like a Peugeot, then the PGO is the natural choice.
How would you know that a PGO feels like a Peugeot?It has a spaceframe chassis and is significantly lighter.
It feels nothing like a Pug
Thats like sayingthat an Elise feels like a Toyota.
Edited by odyssey2200 on Tuesday 4th March 13:10
Mon Ami Mate said:
Beetle floot pan" the only part kept from a donor car is the spine, which is shortened and made corrosion resistant. The only reason we use these is that it enables us to use an age-related plate. Absolutely everything else is brand new and purpose-engineered.
I was told, by Chesil, that the letter of the law had been changed by the DVLA regarding age-related plates (as you called it); in essence, kitcars that utilise a donor car cannot 'inherit' the classic status and therefore it is illegal to use a black plate on one.Is this incorrect?
Also, if you buy a Tygan Speedster, what vehicle details does the V5 show? This is a question I could never get a straight response from Chesil regarding.
TIA
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