Car vs bike - cornering speeds

[Kawasicki]

You need to compare on a fixed radius corner to determine which can corner harder. I once did a small experiment with my friend. I was riding a zxr400 and he was driving a BMW E36 coupe. I cornered as hard as my limited skill allowed around a dry asphalt circle and he followed for a few laps. He said he was in fairly noticeable understeer in the car, while I was running out of ground clearance on the bike. Like I said I am not skilled on a bike, if I hung off the bike more then I think I would of been able to corner harder than the car.

Now riding a bike on the road is a different matter. When you have unpredictable surfaces a car has more consistant grip, so you can push harder. The car has four contact patches, a wider track and a longer wheelbase so it is more stable. Get a lunatic on a bike though and a lunatic in a car and I suspect the absolute cornering speed would be very similar.

shane

[MattOz]

In relative terms, an SV650 isn't that quick really. I think that it would be really close between the bike and the car. Clearly the car will be stronger on the brakes and quicker through the apex of a corner. I'd imagine that the straightline speed differential between the two wouldn't be massive.

The only reference I have is being followed by a friend. Me on my GSXR and him in his 996 C4S. Corner speed wise there was nothing in it, although I was leaving nice black lines through the corner. On any road that was vaguely straight, the Porsche was a dot in the rear view mirror

Matt

[papercup]

Tell if he was serious about being quick he wouldn't own an SV650.

[RobM77]

Something else to bear in mind is the design intent of the vehicles in question. The sorts of bikes talked about in these comparisons are virtually road going race bikes, with little thought for comfort or touring ability, whereas the cars are designed to cross Europe in comfort. The best comparison with something like a Gallardo or F430 is actually something like a VTR1000 or VFR. Equally, an R1 could only ever be likened to an R500 or Ultima. Also bear in mind that an R1 in Evo ridden by a racer was over a second off an R500, and a little Formula Ford, the slowest single seater, can outlap an R500. What I'm trying to say is that the performance potential of cars is underutilised in the quest for comfort (or in the case of the Caterham, historically sticking to a particular layout). Bikes are usually more optimised for performance.

[otolith]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.a...

[sniff petrol]

300bhp/ton said:

sniff petrol said:

BlueEyedBoy said:

f1 vs moto gp, look at lap times, cars are faster round a track.

BTCC Vs BSB lap times might be a fairer comparison in relevance to road cars and bikes.

Except a modern BTCC car shares nothing with a road car, not even the badge.

The BTCC car will be a lot closer to a road car than an F1 car is what I was refering to.

[tvrolet]

kambites said:

2) Bikes typically have a much higher ratio of unsprung to sprung mass so they can't deal with bumps as well as cars.

and a third related, often missed, issue relating to bikes handling bumps that a car corners flat-ish, so bumps are taken on the 'plane' of the suspension i.e. up and down. When a bike is cranked over hitting a bump means the movement at the wheels is maybe at 45 degrees to the suspension travel. Not even the cleverest suspension can perform equally well for bumps in line with the suspension travel (so gunning it on the straights and braking) and when the forces are at an angle to the travel.

And of course we're talking 'equal' driver/rider etc. But it's far easier to run a fast car fast that it is to run a bike equally hard. I've a GPz1100 in the garage plus the Tvrolet and I know which one is faster for me...and that's down to if I overstep the limit on the car I should be able to catch it, learn a bit and carry on with the lap [track days of course]. Make the same mistake on the bike and I'll be pondering for a few months from a hospital bed. So there's just no way I'd corner the bike as hard as I'd corner thw car...and I think that's true of a lot of drivers/riders. There was an article in a US car comic some years ago with a 911 turbo (4x4 version I think) and whatever the hot bike of the time was. The lap times with race drivers/riders weren't so far off - car slightly quicker in some parts, bike in other. But then they put average drivers/riders on and the difference was huge with the car time dropping off a fair bit, but the bike times just being waaay off.

[stackmonkey]

papercup said:

Tell if he was serious about being quick he wouldn't own an SV650.

It's his first bike after passing test on a 125, and all he can afford in addition to car, at the moment.

[Kawasicki]

tvrolet said:

kambites said:

2) Bikes typically have a much higher ratio of unsprung to sprung mass so they can't deal with bumps as well as cars.

and a third related, often missed, issue relating to bikes handling bumps that a car corners flat-ish, so bumps are taken on the 'plane' of the suspension i.e. up and down. When a bike is cranked over hitting a bump means the movement at the wheels is maybe at 45 degrees to the suspension travel. Not even the cleverest suspension can perform equally well for bumps in line with the suspension travel (so gunning it on the straights and braking) and when the forces are at an angle to the travel.

And of course we're talking 'equal' driver/rider etc. But it's far easier to run a fast car fast that it is to run a bike equally hard. I've a GPz1100 in the garage plus the Tvrolet and I know which one is faster for me...and that's down to if I overstep the limit on the car I should be able to catch it, learn a bit and carry on with the lap [track days of course]. Make the same mistake on the bike and I'll be pondering for a few months from a hospital bed. So there's just no way I'd corner the bike as hard as I'd corner thw car...and I think that's true of a lot of drivers/riders. There was an article in a US car comic some years ago with a 911 turbo (4x4 version I think) and whatever the hot bike of the time was. The lap times with race drivers/riders weren't so far off - car slightly quicker in some parts, bike in other. But then they put average drivers/riders on and the difference was huge with the car time dropping off a fair bit, but the bike times just being waaay off.

Agree with your point on bump handling. Every bike I have tried is crap on mid corner bumps. I have seen (complete) lunatics cornering very hard on bumps at the Nurburgring. The bike moves round loads and slides, they do make it though!

[Kawasicki]

stackmonkey said:

papercup said:

Tell if he was serious about being quick he wouldn't own an SV650.

It's his first bike after passing test on a 125, and all he can afford in addition to car, at the moment.

Yes, he should get himself a litre bike and go seriously quick....in a straight line, like most bikers, myself included! An SV650 is a perfect device to land yourself in jail for a few weeks with.

[300bhp/ton]

Anyone got any skidpad G's for bikes??

I guess this would offer a degree of explanation on mechanical grip.

[Kawasicki]

300bhp/ton said:

Anyone got any skidpad G's for bikes??

I guess this would offer a degree of explanation on mechanical grip.

Sport tire test „PS“ 5/2008
Bridgestone BT-016
lateral grip of 12.45m/s/s
longitudinal grip of 12.43m/s/s

both about 1.3G

shane

[BlueEyedBoy]

sniff petrol said:

300bhp/ton said:

sniff petrol said:

BlueEyedBoy said:

f1 vs moto gp, look at lap times, cars are faster round a track.

BTCC Vs BSB lap times might be a fairer comparison in relevance to road cars and bikes.

Except a modern BTCC car shares nothing with a road car, not even the badge.

The BTCC car will be a lot closer to a road car than an F1 car is what I was refering to.

Of course the average bike is going to be quicker than the average car. If you take it to extremes of each though, i.e. F1 vs Moto GP, the car is quicker.

On the average road, a fast car, will also be quicker (if driven safely) than a fast bike. I.e. take a Porche 997 turbo, I think very few bikes on a twisty average A/B road, will be able to keep up, unless they are 1% away from coming off.

[shoestring7]

BlueEyedBoy said:

f1 vs moto gp, look at lap times, cars are faster round a track.

This is almost exclusively because a bike cannot use wings or ground effect.

SS7

[jon-]

Kawasicki said:

300bhp/ton said:

Anyone got any skidpad G's for bikes??

I guess this would offer a degree of explanation on mechanical grip.

Sport tire test „PS“ 5/2008
Bridgestone BT-016
lateral grip of 12.45m/s/s
longitudinal grip of 12.43m/s/s

both about 1.3G

shane

Unsurprisingly 1.3g is good form for a sports car too. This argument is going no where!

[ettore]

300bhp/ton said:

sniff petrol said:

BlueEyedBoy said:

f1 vs moto gp, look at lap times, cars are faster round a track.

BTCC Vs BSB lap times might be a fairer comparison in relevance to road cars and bikes.

Except a modern BTCC car shares nothing with a road car, not even the badge.

Unfortunately not true - they share far too much with road cars for my liking!

[stackmonkey]

jon- said:

Kawasicki said:

300bhp/ton said:

Anyone got any skidpad G's for bikes??

I guess this would offer a degree of explanation on mechanical grip.

Sport tire test „PS“ 5/2008
Bridgestone BT-016
lateral grip of 12.45m/s/s
longitudinal grip of 12.43m/s/s

both about 1.3G

shane

Unsurprisingly 1.3g is good form for a sports car too. This argument is going no where!

if someone has similar figures for cars I'll be happy. I'd rather know the answer, and know I'm wrong, than not know the answer.

[Eddh]

wee_andy said:

now I aint a biker, but having been n the back of my pals bike many a times, and in races with younger boy racers. a bike would clearly F**k a car round corners

Thats because they drive shopping carts and dont have the balls

[300bhp/ton]

Found this on the interweb:


Who's Faster Sport bike or sport car?

Road and Tracks new Speed tests:

Ninja ZX-10R
VS
XS Skyline GT-R

Ninja ZX-6R
Vs
Chevy Corvette

Specs:

Nissan R34 Gt-R V-Spec

100 mods dont have all effing day or id type them all

Horsepower:589bhp@6700rpm
Torque:482lb-ft@6000rpm

hoosier slick tires:
0-60mph:3.4
0-1/4 mile:11.6@122.7

200ft skidpad:1.11g
700ft Slalom69.6mph

Fastest lap @ buttonwillow raceway:
1:58.82

Kawasaki ZX-10R

Horsepower:WHP156@12,100rpm
torque:76 lb-ft@9,600rpm

0-60:3.0sec
0-1/4 mile:10.2@145mph

200ft skidpad:1.04
700ft slalom:121.6mph

Buttonwillow raceway best time:
1:53.00

2005 Chevy Corvette

0-60mph:4.7sec
0-1/4mile:13.2@109mph

.96g skidpad

66.8mph slalom

Best lap:2:07.12

Ninja ZX-6R:

0-60mph:2.9mph
0-1/4mile 10.8@130.3mph

1.01g skidpad

112.4mph slalom

Best Lap:1:56.50..

[aeropilot]

As mentioned ability to corner is down to grip, be it mechanical or aero or combination of both, and a bike has a much too small contact patch to be able to corner quicker than a car....simple physics.

The circuit analogy is appropiate.

A MotoGP bike pretty much has a similar top speed to a F1 car give or take a nads, and acceleration probably not far off the same, yet the F1 car can gain purely on the braking and corners, so somewhat proves the point.

Stoners fastest lap at this years MotoGP at Donnington was still 10secs SLOWER than Senna's fastest lap on the same circuit way back in 1993 in the Euorpean GP...!!!