What to go for Z4, Vx220 Boxster or S2000??

What to go for Z4, Vx220 Boxster or S2000??

Author
Discussion

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
Plotloss said:
kambites said:
I think even a hugely powerful MX5 wouldn't give me much more than shoving a supercharged K20 lump in the Elise - it's easy (if not cheap) to get an Elise to around 330bhp reliably and it's a lighter car. I was reckoning maybe an Ultima or a turbocharged 'busa powered seven type car as a weekend thing. Something proper fast.
Seen a 250bhp MX5 run around a few times and it wouldnt see which way a VXT with equivalent power went.
Thats the important bit, stock I can happily keep up, even push them a bit down the straights smile

I'd love a Honda Elise smile

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
Herman Toothrot said:
Plotloss said:
kambites said:
I think even a hugely powerful MX5 wouldn't give me much more than shoving a supercharged K20 lump in the Elise - it's easy (if not cheap) to get an Elise to around 330bhp reliably and it's a lighter car. I was reckoning maybe an Ultima or a turbocharged 'busa powered seven type car as a weekend thing. Something proper fast.
Seen a 250bhp MX5 run around a few times and it wouldnt see which way a VXT with equivalent power went.
Thats the important bit, stock I can happily keep up, even push them a bit down the straights smile

I'd love a Honda Elise smile
Your MX5 does look nice, but I would struggle with the idea of spending that much money on one given how little track work I do, rather than spending that money on new bits for the Lotus or on some lunatic bike engined roller-skate.

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
Herman Toothrot said:
Plotloss said:
kambites said:
I think even a hugely powerful MX5 wouldn't give me much more than shoving a supercharged K20 lump in the Elise - it's easy (if not cheap) to get an Elise to around 330bhp reliably and it's a lighter car. I was reckoning maybe an Ultima or a turbocharged 'busa powered seven type car as a weekend thing. Something proper fast.
Seen a 250bhp MX5 run around a few times and it wouldnt see which way a VXT with equivalent power went.
Thats the important bit, stock I can happily keep up, even push them a bit down the straights smile

I'd love a Honda Elise smile
Your MX5 does look nice, but I would struggle with the idea of spending that much money on one given how little track work I do, rather than spending that money on new bits for the Lotus or on some lunatic bike engined roller-skate.
Yes, as you already have the Lotus I'd not bother unless I spotted one all ready prepared up for £4.5K or similar. As my Mazda came first and its hard to beat I decided to keep it. I'd have needed to spend upwards of £15K on a Lotus for it to be "superior". I admit that I keep wondering now i've got the VX220, if I could go to just one combined track / daily driver in the form of a VXturbo or Honda Elise... Trouble is I started out with only one car and decided two were better as it doesn't matter if the track car gets bent or engine pops as i still have the daily car. Bending an MX5 would be a lot less painful than bending an Elise. Just go and buy another one for £1500 and swap the fast bits over smile

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
Well actually on the road I suspect it comes entirely down to the driver - I don't think I'd be noticeably quicker in a 300bhp Elise than my 160bhp Elise
So true, it only makes loss of licence / prison more likely smile Reason I went for an n/a VX not a turbo.

Edited by Herman Toothrot on Thursday 6th August 09:09

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
hehe This is true. Bending an Elise isn't quite as bad as bending a VX220 because at least parts availability is better, but it's still not cheap.

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
heebeegeetee said:
havoc said:
PS (general to all) - I think all modern performance machinery is heading towards stiffer-riding cars, because of the marketing-led desires for big bling rims and for ever-quicker Nordschliefe times...and I don't think it's a good direction. I consider myself to have 100RON blood yet I now realise I wouldn't go for a 911 GT3 or an NSX-R or an M3 CSL - I'd go for the 'soft' versions, and arguably have almost as much fun a lot more of the time...
I must say i agree with this. The mags do point out the hard rides of many cars but i think that either i'm very sensitive to this issue or the journos hold back in their criticisms of this trait.

I can't get over the size of wheels fitted to cars nowadays. The Ferrari F40 has 17" rims, but now you can buy small hatchbacks from new with wheels this size.
Big wheels needn't ruin ride quality if the suspension is designed for them - ultimately you always have more control over spring and damping rates in an spring than in a tyre side wall. Of course having a certain amount of deflection in the tyre does mean you have almost no completely unsprung mass; an effect which you can't replicate with suspension settings.

The big problem though, is the combination of huge wheels and stiff suspension.
In actual fact it's not the rim size it's the lack of profile in the tyre as a result of using the big rims that ruin the ride quality, and very often the issue of having suspension to suit isn't addressed because it isn't in the budget.

Do the manufacturers change the suspesnion on a model when it receives bigger wheels/lower profile tyres? I don't know. My Boxster has 18" rims but was originally designed for 16" rims. All i know is that the ride quality is only just acceptable, and often a shudder is sent through the cabin as the rubber band tyres roller over the dreadful road surfaces we have to put up with these days.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
I'm pretty sure they don't change the suspension settings for different wheel sizes (or rather tyre profiles which is, as you say, the important thing) which is why I would almost always buy a car with the standard wheel size given the choice.

I suspect your Boxster would drive much better on 16s.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 10:07

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure they don't change the suspension settings for different wheel sizes (or rather tyre profiles which is, as you say, the important thing) which is why I would almost always buy a car with the standard wheel size given the choice.

I suspect your Boxster would drive much better on 16s.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 10:07
I heard a story that Lotus change the suspension geometry on the Esprit if it has air con, not sure if that's true or not biggrin

I'd be very surprised if BMW or even Porsche alter the suspension settings on their cars for different sized wheels so, like Kambites, I would also always go for the standard size wheels.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure they don't change the suspension settings for different wheel sizes (or rather tyre profiles which is, as you say, the important thing) which is why I would almost always buy a car with the standard wheel size given the choice.

I suspect your Boxster would drive much better on 16s.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 10:07
I heard a story that Lotus change the suspension geometry on the Esprit if it has air con, not sure if that's true or not biggrin

I'd be very surprised if BMW or even Porsche alter the suspension settings on their cars for different sized wheels so, like Kambites, I would also always go for the standard size wheels.
Lotus ship every car from the factory with different suspension geometry anyway. I think as long as the wheels are pointing in vaguely the right direction, they're happy.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
RobM77 said:
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure they don't change the suspension settings for different wheel sizes (or rather tyre profiles which is, as you say, the important thing) which is why I would almost always buy a car with the standard wheel size given the choice.

I suspect your Boxster would drive much better on 16s.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th August 10:07
I heard a story that Lotus change the suspension geometry on the Esprit if it has air con, not sure if that's true or not biggrin

I'd be very surprised if BMW or even Porsche alter the suspension settings on their cars for different sized wheels so, like Kambites, I would also always go for the standard size wheels.
Lotus ship every car from the factory with different suspension geometry anyway. I think as long as the wheels are pointing in vaguely the right direction, they're happy.
biggrin

My Dad asked this question about suspension settings and wheels, so I wrote to BMW on his behalf to ask them. Predictably, I just got a response back saying that all the wheels work fine. My Dad went for the standard wheels...

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
I suspect your Boxster would drive much better on 16s.
Agreed.

bga

8,134 posts

250 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I can only go by what I felt through my (rather padded) bum and it really is no way near as bad as people would be led to believe IMO. As a few have mentioned, it's not got the progressive handling of an MX-5 as standard. Twitchy in the wet when you are giving it beans? Only as far as any car with no TC, peaky power delivery & rwd is.

havoc

29,928 posts

234 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
bga said:
As a few have mentioned, it's not got the progressive handling of an MX-5 as standard. Twitchy in the wet when you are giving it beans? Only as far as any car with no TC, peaky power delivery & rwd is.
I think if we were comparing the S2000 to different cars, e.g a Chimaera or Elise, people would be praising it's oversteer behavior. I think it's all down to expectations:
- People expect a TVR to be a handful;
- People expect a Lotus to need to be pedalled properly;
- People DON'T expect a Honda to require the same level of respect...

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
havoc said:
bga said:
As a few have mentioned, it's not got the progressive handling of an MX-5 as standard. Twitchy in the wet when you are giving it beans? Only as far as any car with no TC, peaky power delivery & rwd is.
I think if we were comparing the S2000 to different cars, e.g a Chimaera or Elise, people would be praising it's oversteer behavior. I think it's all down to expectations:
- People expect a TVR to be a handful;
- People expect a Lotus to need to be pedalled properly;
- People DON'T expect a Honda to require the same level of respect...
There is probably a fair bit of truth in that, yes.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
kambites said:
havoc said:
bga said:
As a few have mentioned, it's not got the progressive handling of an MX-5 as standard. Twitchy in the wet when you are giving it beans? Only as far as any car with no TC, peaky power delivery & rwd is.
I think if we were comparing the S2000 to different cars, e.g a Chimaera or Elise, people would be praising it's oversteer behavior. I think it's all down to expectations:
- People expect a TVR to be a handful;
- People expect a Lotus to need to be pedalled properly;
- People DON'T expect a Honda to require the same level of respect...
There is probably a fair bit of truth in that, yes.
Likewise the Mk3 MR2 was criticised for its oversteer, but actually they've got amazing handling (imho).

havoc

29,928 posts

234 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh...interesting. I was under the impression that different racks wouldn't fit different cars due to the set-up, the mounting points, and the gearing on the column all potentially being different, even within the same manufacturer. I may be wrong...I'm not an engineer!

Hot1

Original Poster:

402 posts

197 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
well just got insurance quotes on vx220, z4 3.0lr and s2000!

vx220 is 1k
bmw z4 3.0lr is £1174

and s2000 £1546 ouch!!

This does make the z4 more tempting although can pick up s2000 bit cheaper than z4 so equals out

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
Hot1 said:
well just got insurance quotes on vx220, z4 3.0lr and s2000!

vx220 is 1k
bmw z4 3.0lr is £1174

and s2000 £1546 ouch!!

This does make the z4 more tempting although can pick up s2000 bit cheaper than z4 so equals out
eek

Are you 17 or have convictions? My VX is under half than per annum as a daily driver commuting car parked outside with only 3 years ncb.

ClintonB

4,721 posts

212 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
Herman Toothrot said:
Hot1 said:
well just got insurance quotes on vx220, z4 3.0lr and s2000!

vx220 is 1k
bmw z4 3.0lr is £1174

and s2000 £1546 ouch!!

This does make the z4 more tempting although can pick up s2000 bit cheaper than z4 so equals out
eek

Are you 17 or have convictions? My VX is under half than per annum as a daily driver commuting car parked outside with only 3 years ncb.
Could be all manner of things, postcode being the favourite.
The S2K would cost me that much as well, possibly a decent chunk more & quite a few companies wouldn't bother. Over 35, full NCB and clean licence.

havoc

29,928 posts

234 months

Thursday 6th August 2009
quotequote all
What NCB? And how old?

And can I suggest trying Chris Knott and A-Plan - both came up with very good quotes for the S for me and have good reps for customer service.


Re: BMW/S2000 - given the age they're at you'll probably find depreciation is pretty similar between them - what you'll pay extra for the BMW you'll still get ~50%+ of that back when you come to sell it...

...so if the S is going to cost an extra £500 a year in insurance, then that probably IS dead money.