Not declaring modifications to insurance companies
Discussion
Reagrding the remap situ, afaik despite claims by DMS and the like, there is no such thing as a true 'invisible' remap. Harder to find granted, but when plugged into the proper dealer diagnostic machine it can be located with a decent tech.
As to individuals who have had their car remapped prior to purchase, such such claiming ignorance come pay out time - perhaps with the above system, the date/timing of the remap can be identified (and thus prove it was conducted prior to ownership).
Did I read correctly that someone declared a non standard battery?
As to individuals who have had their car remapped prior to purchase, such such claiming ignorance come pay out time - perhaps with the above system, the date/timing of the remap can be identified (and thus prove it was conducted prior to ownership).
Did I read correctly that someone declared a non standard battery?
Some cars don't have write counts or date stamps etc... so it'd be impossible to really say.
The only way an insurer could really get you, would be to pressure you into telling the truth (were you lying), as far as I can work out...!?
Tis a tough one, but as said, I'm sure most insurers are not THAT bad, and often when they do fail to pay out there is more to it than meets the eye (ie, other really obvious big mods, or dodgy bald tyres, or driving without due care etc)
Hmmmm
Dave
The only way an insurer could really get you, would be to pressure you into telling the truth (were you lying), as far as I can work out...!?
Tis a tough one, but as said, I'm sure most insurers are not THAT bad, and often when they do fail to pay out there is more to it than meets the eye (ie, other really obvious big mods, or dodgy bald tyres, or driving without due care etc)
Hmmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Some cars don't have write counts or date stamps etc... so it'd be impossible to really say.
Indeed, some mapping software allows a copy of the contents of the memory to be read, amended and then re-written back to the chip. So it's possible for none of the version numbers, date stamps, write counts etc to look any different from standard.As a result the only way to know if a car has been remapped is to pull off a copy of the map and use a program to compare the actual table of values against a standard map.
It is interesting, the 'ignorance' defence. It should be open to those who couldn't be reasonably expected to know any better, but that also leaves it open to abuse by those who are not ignorant.
In the case of some cars (particularly BMW's with large diesel engines) the effects of remapping can be significant. So one could argue that a remap does increase the risk of an accident by allowing the achievement of speeds which might not otherwise have been reachable without a longer 'run up'. This could be a material fact to the insurer, but how can that be dealt with fairly if the owner genuinely didn't know it had been done? (Unless you've driven several similar models you may not know yours is different.)
I don't think I have an answer.
mrmr96 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Some cars don't have write counts or date stamps etc... so it'd be impossible to really say.
Indeed, some mapping software allows a copy of the contents of the memory to be read, amended and then re-written back to the chip. So it's possible for none of the version numbers, date stamps, write counts etc to look any different from standard.As a result the only way to know if a car has been remapped is to pull off a copy of the map and use a program to compare the actual table of values against a standard map.
It is interesting, the 'ignorance' defence. It should be open to those who couldn't be reasonably expected to know any better, but that also leaves it open to abuse by those who are not ignorant.
In the case of some cars (particularly BMW's with large diesel engines) the effects of remapping can be significant. So one could argue that a remap does increase the risk of an accident by allowing the achievement of speeds which might not otherwise have been reachable without a longer 'run up'. This could be a material fact to the insurer, but how can that be dealt with fairly if the owner genuinely didn't know it had been done? (Unless you've driven several similar models you may not know yours is different.)
I don't think I have an answer.
Until you are fairly used to a car it is hard to tell the difference too.
I had a remap done on my old Peugeot and it went from 93bhp > 122bhp, and on the way for the second dyno run I was thinking more like 100bhp from the feel of it. I didn't really think it was that much different.
Only after a week of driving it, and having it removed, did the difference become massively apparent!
So even test-driving a few might not lead you to notice the differences.
I don't have an answer either, but I do know that there are people out there running cars that are probably remapped and tuned without knowing it, with no way for them to know without a fairly in-depth ECU data check by someone... or a dyno test... but how many 'normal' people do that.
And in any case as you noted, how many people can then claim that they didn't know when they did... it's hard to prove!
Ergo, I think many insurers don't just get all negative, and look at factors to cause the accident, other mods on the car, the drivers voice stress over the phone perhaps?
Do they look to have other aggrevating non-declared mods etc? Non-original parts?
OK, don't purposely go against insurers, but I doubt they are stupid, but I also doubt that they are so iron-willed as they say (the good ones who don't automatically try avoiding ANY claim). I think they use good judegement by and large
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
mrmr96 said:
Mr Whippy said:
Some cars don't have write counts or date stamps etc... so it'd be impossible to really say.
Indeed, some mapping software allows a copy of the contents of the memory to be read, amended and then re-written back to the chip. So it's possible for none of the version numbers, date stamps, write counts etc to look any different from standard.As a result the only way to know if a car has been remapped is to pull off a copy of the map and use a program to compare the actual table of values against a standard map.
It is interesting, the 'ignorance' defence. It should be open to those who couldn't be reasonably expected to know any better, but that also leaves it open to abuse by those who are not ignorant.
In the case of some cars (particularly BMW's with large diesel engines) the effects of remapping can be significant. So one could argue that a remap does increase the risk of an accident by allowing the achievement of speeds which might not otherwise have been reachable without a longer 'run up'. This could be a material fact to the insurer, but how can that be dealt with fairly if the owner genuinely didn't know it had been done? (Unless you've driven several similar models you may not know yours is different.)
I don't think I have an answer.
Until you are fairly used to a car it is hard to tell the difference too.
I had a remap done on my old Peugeot and it went from 93bhp > 122bhp, and on the way for the second dyno run I was thinking more like 100bhp from the feel of it. I didn't really think it was that much different.
Only after a week of driving it, and having it removed, did the difference become massively apparent!
So even test-driving a few might not lead you to notice the differences.
I don't have an answer either, but I do know that there are people out there running cars that are probably remapped and tuned without knowing it, with no way for them to know without a fairly in-depth ECU data check by someone... or a dyno test... but how many 'normal' people do that.
And in any case as you noted, how many people can then claim that they didn't know when they did... it's hard to prove!
Ergo, I think many insurers don't just get all negative, and look at factors to cause the accident, other mods on the car, the drivers voice stress over the phone perhaps?
Do they look to have other aggrevating non-declared mods etc? Non-original parts?
OK, don't purposely go against insurers, but I doubt they are stupid, but I also doubt that they are so iron-willed as they say (the good ones who don't automatically try avoiding ANY claim). I think they use good judegement by and large
Dave
But even that's open to abuse as some modders may see it as carte blanche to insure their car as standard and only pay the modification premium if/when they make a claim.
So maybe the answer is to examine whether, in each case, it is reasonable that the owner should have known about the mods. So factory options or remaps it's reasonable not to notice, but induction kits and exhausts should be pretty obvious. Then if the mods were obvious the insurance is invalid and if they are not then they just pay the additional premium.
But that's a really grey area to get into.
Who decides which mods the owner should know about, and which ones it would be reasonable to be ignorant about? There are some clear cut examples of things that are hidden (like remap) and things which are obvious (like a big boom box stereo install) but others are very hard to decide if it's reasonable to be ignorant about (for example alloys from another car in the range, aftermarket suspension or exhaust if not too extreme).
I thought I had an asnwer, but it turns out I still don't!!
I think they will have very good assesors who are very familiar with this.
Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
grand cherokee said:
if an insurance company can avoid paying out they will do so
BUT
99% of reasonable mods eg brakes/tyres/suspension will never even be picked up - you need an engineer who is a real 'marque' specialist
most mods are actually safety enhancing
There's a thread on the HonestJohn forum from a guy who specified ESP (there's ambition for you) as an option on his scrappage special Hyundai i10. He was moaning as he told his insurance company and they listed it as "brake modification" and whacked his premium up. BUT
99% of reasonable mods eg brakes/tyres/suspension will never even be picked up - you need an engineer who is a real 'marque' specialist
most mods are actually safety enhancing
Deva Link said:
grand cherokee said:
if an insurance company can avoid paying out they will do so
BUT
99% of reasonable mods eg brakes/tyres/suspension will never even be picked up - you need an engineer who is a real 'marque' specialist
most mods are actually safety enhancing
There's a thread on the HonestJohn forum from a guy who specified ESP (there's ambition for you) as an option on his scrappage special Hyundai i10. He was moaning as he told his insurance company and they listed it as "brake modification" and whacked his premium up. BUT
99% of reasonable mods eg brakes/tyres/suspension will never even be picked up - you need an engineer who is a real 'marque' specialist
most mods are actually safety enhancing
Mr Whippy said:
I think they will have very good assesors who are very familiar with this.
Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
That's interesting. How about supplying a list of the mods you know about to the insurer and offering them the oppertunity to come and inspect the car prior to providing cover?Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
Puts the onus on them, but I can't see that they would go for it!
mrmr96 said:
Mr Whippy said:
I think they will have very good assesors who are very familiar with this.
Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
That's interesting. How about supplying a list of the mods you know about to the insurer and offering them the oppertunity to come and inspect the car prior to providing cover?Much like when Plod know something looks fishy and look a bit further, I am sure a good insurance assesor will know when someone is taking the pee, and to look further at a case.
Going too far would not be cost effective, but not going far enough would see people take the pee.
They are not stupid really, and I'd not knowingly take the pee because ultimately the risk is still there!
I do however question, even in my 'clued up about most things car' mind, that an insurer does have a responsibility to determine the cars worth and spec themselves. Ie, asking YOU to know your cars exact spec when it might be on the 3rd owner, is a bit much.
For all I know my car might have a remap, sports cats, changed suspension, and factory extras added since new, of cup holders and steering wheel controls, and floor nets, the 18" optional wheels etc. I honestly haven't the resources to know for sure, and I'm a car nut!
Dave
Puts the onus on them, but I can't see that they would go for it!
Ie, if I don't take the pee, they won't.
Makes more sense to me. Not the cheapest insurer, but thats for a reason. They are not bell ends come claim time!
Still, all that said, for all I know the car has uprated conrods, ported head, 20bhp more than I know about, adjusted alignment settings, yadda yadda yadda. Who knows without stripping the car!
Just making the point that I think insurers don't care unless they think it really matters... the good ones at least... or if you start grumbling that X component (that turns out to be not original) is worth Y amount and you demand that extra money.
Crap insurers will probably say your windscreen isn't 'original' because it's a Pilkington replacement and not pay out, but there isn't much you can do about those ones
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 21st January 16:57
Don't even think about it, you would be driving with no insurance for sure, my 18 year old son just lowered his 1.2 Corsa 'C'SXI, he also changed the air-filter, up graded to SRI wheels and up rated dampers and fitted xenons, I made him declare the mods and even at his young age it only increased the monthly premiums by 15-20 pounds, and he can sleep at nights too.......
cbrannan said:
Don't even think about it, you would be driving with no insurance for sure, my 18 year old son just lowered his 1.2 Corsa 'C'SXI, he also changed the air-filter, up graded to SRI wheels and up rated dampers and fitted xenons, I made him declare the mods and even at his young age it only increased the monthly premiums by 15-20 pounds, and he can sleep at nights too.......
Isn't that a standard spec corsa It has certainly been interesting reading this thread, but I have only scanned through a few pages and apologise if it has already been asked.
How would you report someone you know driving their car around with uninsured modifications and intentionally not declaring them? I don't just mean small modifications but lets say an engine which has a bigger capacity than the original engine the car started with.
It just seems unfair having to pay such large amounts of money for insurance whereas some fools clearly don't give a toss regarding the law. Thanks in advance.
How would you report someone you know driving their car around with uninsured modifications and intentionally not declaring them? I don't just mean small modifications but lets say an engine which has a bigger capacity than the original engine the car started with.
It just seems unfair having to pay such large amounts of money for insurance whereas some fools clearly don't give a toss regarding the law. Thanks in advance.
A: don't be a grass.
Unless that person has REALLY upset you (slept with your wife, ran over your dog, is Gordon Brown) there's no reason other than being a total b
d. You're not going to get any reward for it, your premium won't be reduced if you report one person.
So leave it, get on with your life and go worry about something else. (Are all your carrots pointing the same way and spaced equidistantly on the fridge shelf? Are they? ARE YOU SURE?)
Unless that person has REALLY upset you (slept with your wife, ran over your dog, is Gordon Brown) there's no reason other than being a total b
d. You're not going to get any reward for it, your premium won't be reduced if you report one person.So leave it, get on with your life and go worry about something else. (Are all your carrots pointing the same way and spaced equidistantly on the fridge shelf? Are they? ARE YOU SURE?)
Just continuing the thread. My second hand mini cooper exhaust broke. I rang a few places. I was told the standard or pattern fit exhaust is useless (the previous item fitted by last owner was only three years old). Quotes for OEM appearance but better quality were same as a stainless system. So I had that fitted.
Reading the thread I should declare (wasn't) I guess but it's a bit like the tyres issue. As far as I'm concerned I've done this for longevity. But best to fess up?
I'm with Admiral and I had a bit of an argument when I bought it as he asked me if the car had any options and when I found out let them know.
I told him this was absurd as it's a near decade old run out car and how could I possibly know what was standard and what wasn't. But he couldn't compute and kept repeating when you fund out tell us...
Reading the thread I should declare (wasn't) I guess but it's a bit like the tyres issue. As far as I'm concerned I've done this for longevity. But best to fess up?
I'm with Admiral and I had a bit of an argument when I bought it as he asked me if the car had any options and when I found out let them know.
I told him this was absurd as it's a near decade old run out car and how could I possibly know what was standard and what wasn't. But he couldn't compute and kept repeating when you fund out tell us...
Thank you Piston-headers for helping me make my mind up.
I've just renewed and continue paying a specialist circa £480 with every mod declared compared to a mainstream insurer £180 mods undeclared on a policy that covers me driving my track S4 B5 back and forth to circuits 2000 miles a year.
The thought of 6 points decided it.
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