RE: Pic of The Week: Sensational Senna
Discussion
Ollieb7 said:
I rekon Kimi is better than Senna.
There you are - proof that Senna's greatness is unarguable - only two people gullable enough to think seriously that some one would be stupid enough to make such a statement (sorry chaps);-)The man was the last of the line of where it was at and unfortunately there hasn't been some one since that has come near - in mine and many others opinion. Now that says a lot - its beyond debate! :-)
Edited by Ollieb7 on Friday 3rd September 19:09
senninha2 said:
Moley RUFC said:
........I cannot wait to see this film. In my time the greatest I ever saw. Pure, pure speed and ultimate car control. I always think that he would have been a great rally driver because his car control was almost inpossibly good in any condition and where it counted, on the limit...........
WRC drivers are IMO the pinnacle of car control. Add the natural ability of Senna and the potential for a World Champion in multiple disciplines was very real. You might find this an interesting read if you've not seen it before ...regards, Paul
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/allarticles/276...
To me it's simple.
He was and is the greatest figure in the history of our epic sport and to me the greatest driver too. The man was special and in a sport with a few special people he was to me without question the most special. Flawed of course, but I met him a couple of times and watched him race many many times and I still have tingles at the thought of it. Can't take those things away from a Petrolhead and I feel better for having witnessed his utter genius at work.
It's totally subjective, but for me no one comes close or ever will.
Kimi better? You're a t
t to think that, the end.
He was and is the greatest figure in the history of our epic sport and to me the greatest driver too. The man was special and in a sport with a few special people he was to me without question the most special. Flawed of course, but I met him a couple of times and watched him race many many times and I still have tingles at the thought of it. Can't take those things away from a Petrolhead and I feel better for having witnessed his utter genius at work.
It's totally subjective, but for me no one comes close or ever will.
Kimi better? You're a t
t to think that, the end.Ollieb7 said:
senninha2 said:
Moley RUFC said:
........I cannot wait to see this film. In my time the greatest I ever saw. Pure, pure speed and ultimate car control. I always think that he would have been a great rally driver because his car control was almost inpossibly good in any condition and where it counted, on the limit...........
WRC drivers are IMO the pinnacle of car control. Add the natural ability of Senna and the potential for a World Champion in multiple disciplines was very real. You might find this an interesting read if you've not seen it before ...regards, Paul
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/allarticles/276...
If you think about what Senna was doing with his right foot on the throttle pedal it's no different (albeit, somewhat basic) to what traction control does electronically, isn't it?
He loads on the power, full chat, it's not going to grip (700-1200hp on ANY surface is gonna struggle, wet or dry, I don't care how big and slick the tyres are) so he comes off, then on, then off, then on again and as the car moves forward and has more downforce and grip and is heading in the right direction without oversteer, he plants it properly.
It really is just about physically getting as much power through the wheels and onto the tarmac as early as possible, isn't it? It's just that rather than doing it the 'smooth and progressive' way that Jackie Stewart always preaches, Senna was better (than anyone else!) doing it his method. At least, that's how I see it. No one else had that technique, or if they did, they just weren't as good as he was.
Obviously there were other factors about him too, he could read a track and a race better than anyone else in that era, didnt mind the wet (whereas Prost detested it) and was completely and utterly more committed than anyone else in that era.
As I'm sure many other PH'ers were, I was at Donington in '93 and another racing driver (a successful Brazilian one actually) who I was there with pointed out that Senna had done probably double the amount of sighting laps through the pitlane than anyone else before he came to the grid before the race. He already knew what the level of grip was because he'd tried giving it a bootful at every corner before coming to the grid. Last minute set up change while the grid walk is on and then it was a case of 'See you later...'
A mate of mine who was on the Craner Grandstand summed it up the best to me in the evening in the bar. On his move around the outside of Wendlinger, 'He just, 'did it'!'
He loads on the power, full chat, it's not going to grip (700-1200hp on ANY surface is gonna struggle, wet or dry, I don't care how big and slick the tyres are) so he comes off, then on, then off, then on again and as the car moves forward and has more downforce and grip and is heading in the right direction without oversteer, he plants it properly.
It really is just about physically getting as much power through the wheels and onto the tarmac as early as possible, isn't it? It's just that rather than doing it the 'smooth and progressive' way that Jackie Stewart always preaches, Senna was better (than anyone else!) doing it his method. At least, that's how I see it. No one else had that technique, or if they did, they just weren't as good as he was.
Obviously there were other factors about him too, he could read a track and a race better than anyone else in that era, didnt mind the wet (whereas Prost detested it) and was completely and utterly more committed than anyone else in that era.
As I'm sure many other PH'ers were, I was at Donington in '93 and another racing driver (a successful Brazilian one actually) who I was there with pointed out that Senna had done probably double the amount of sighting laps through the pitlane than anyone else before he came to the grid before the race. He already knew what the level of grip was because he'd tried giving it a bootful at every corner before coming to the grid. Last minute set up change while the grid walk is on and then it was a case of 'See you later...'
A mate of mine who was on the Craner Grandstand summed it up the best to me in the evening in the bar. On his move around the outside of Wendlinger, 'He just, 'did it'!'
Ollieb7 said:
senninha2 said:
Moley RUFC said:
........I cannot wait to see this film. In my time the greatest I ever saw. Pure, pure speed and ultimate car control. I always think that he would have been a great rally driver because his car control was almost inpossibly good in any condition and where it counted, on the limit...........
WRC drivers are IMO the pinnacle of car control. Add the natural ability of Senna and the potential for a World Champion in multiple disciplines was very real. You might find this an interesting read if you've not seen it before ...regards, Paul
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/allarticles/276...
Ollieb7 said:
Good call man - and topical. In the old days the drivers jumped from different formulas to different classes - Jim Clark and the likes - indy, tin tops etc... Now wouldn't it be more interesting if someone once they reached that 'wealth' got out of the comfort zone and actually proved - for today - that they were the best driver. I.e. Loeb - get out of rallying and get into F1 - Lets see it and not another.....(yawn) WRC Championship. Hats off to Kimi for a nano second - but frankly he's toooo boring to take a skin off a rice pudding and he keeps crashing - to say he is a rather one dimensional chap on many levels gives him far to much credit!
To be fair to Leob, he's done Le Mans and was fking quick in an LMP, so I think he'd make a very good account of himself in an F1 car given the chance. As did McRae when he tested the Jordan and Sainz set some 'fairly quick' lap times around Paul Ricard in the Toyota Le Mans car apparently too when he was given a test.Don't know whether this was posted here before. In case it wasn't I do want to share this wonderful tribute to Ayrton and the Honda NSX with you.
Additionally featuring the Ring as well as my lovely hometown of Frankfurt am Main:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53c6o_cNPEo
Additionally featuring the Ring as well as my lovely hometown of Frankfurt am Main:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53c6o_cNPEo
Edited by ERDi on Friday 3rd September 19:54
Racefan_uk said:
If you think about what Senna was doing with his right foot on the throttle pedal it's no different (albeit, somewhat basic) to what traction control does electronically, isn't it?
He loads on the power, full chat, it's not going to grip (700-1200hp on ANY surface is gonna struggle, wet or dry, I don't care how big and slick the tyres are) so he comes off, then on, then off, then on again and as the car moves forward and has more downforce and grip and is heading in the right direction without oversteer, he plants it properly.
It really is just about physically getting as much power through the wheels and onto the tarmac as early as possible, isn't it? It's just that rather than doing it the 'smooth and progressive' way that Jackie Stewart always preaches, Senna was better (than anyone else!) doing it his method. At least, that's how I see it. No one else had that technique, or if they did, they just weren't as good as he was.
Obviously there were other factors about him too, he could read a track and a race better than anyone else in that era, didnt mind the wet (whereas Prost detested it) and was completely and utterly more committed than anyone else in that era.
As I'm sure many other PH'ers were, I was at Donington in '93 and another racing driver (a successful Brazilian one actually) who I was there with pointed out that Senna had done probably double the amount of sighting laps through the pitlane than anyone else before he came to the grid before the race. He already knew what the level of grip was because he'd tried giving it a bootful at every corner before coming to the grid. Last minute set up change while the grid walk is on and then it was a case of 'See you later...'
A mate of mine who was on the Craner Grandstand summed it up the best to me in the evening in the bar. On his move around the outside of Wendlinger, 'He just, 'did it'!'
I always thought it was just a case of him trying to get his fott flat to the floor as early as possible... there's a testing video somewhere on YT that clearly shows the difference in sound (though not sure of the grammatical correctness of showing a sound) between his car and others - I will find it in a bit.He loads on the power, full chat, it's not going to grip (700-1200hp on ANY surface is gonna struggle, wet or dry, I don't care how big and slick the tyres are) so he comes off, then on, then off, then on again and as the car moves forward and has more downforce and grip and is heading in the right direction without oversteer, he plants it properly.
It really is just about physically getting as much power through the wheels and onto the tarmac as early as possible, isn't it? It's just that rather than doing it the 'smooth and progressive' way that Jackie Stewart always preaches, Senna was better (than anyone else!) doing it his method. At least, that's how I see it. No one else had that technique, or if they did, they just weren't as good as he was.
Obviously there were other factors about him too, he could read a track and a race better than anyone else in that era, didnt mind the wet (whereas Prost detested it) and was completely and utterly more committed than anyone else in that era.
As I'm sure many other PH'ers were, I was at Donington in '93 and another racing driver (a successful Brazilian one actually) who I was there with pointed out that Senna had done probably double the amount of sighting laps through the pitlane than anyone else before he came to the grid before the race. He already knew what the level of grip was because he'd tried giving it a bootful at every corner before coming to the grid. Last minute set up change while the grid walk is on and then it was a case of 'See you later...'
A mate of mine who was on the Craner Grandstand summed it up the best to me in the evening in the bar. On his move around the outside of Wendlinger, 'He just, 'did it'!'
robsco said:
duncanS said:
Over rated imo, would he really be so highly regarded if he was alive???
Dont think so!!
Yes he would, because the people who aren't blinded by statistics know what a truly incredible, unique and gifted driver he was, mortality has absolutely no influence in it.Dont think so!!
Edited by duncanS on Friday 3rd September 20:33
duncanS said:
Over rated imo, would he really be so highly regarded if he was alive???
Dont think so!!
Thank god someone said it, im not the only one who thinks this.Dont think so!!
The Senna argument oftem comes up amongst my group of mates, problem is they are mostly non motorsport people who just think what they are told to think and as such Senna is/was the best.
He was a great driver, i am not saying he was'nt, but THE greatest? I dont think so, in MY opinion his driving style and his attitude are not much different from Schumacher. Both very aggressive, very calculating and very hard drivers, they know/knew what the car was and will do at all times. They both finished a race looking as calm and collected as when they started.
I think there are as many, if not more great Schumi drives than there are Senna. Silverstone stuck behind Hill springs to mind, towards the end of the race Schumacher kept going wide on the last corner, nobody knew what he was doing until the last-ish lap when all became clear. He had been 'cleaning' the track so that he could overtake on the outside.
So i agree, would he still be as highly regarded if he was still alive? No i dont think so, on paper, at least, Schumacher is the superior driver, there can not be an argument there, and in my opinion on the track as well.
Nick
nicky.mattsson said:
duncanS said:
Over rated imo, would he really be so highly regarded if he was alive???
Dont think so!!
Thank god someone said it, im not the only one who thinks this.Dont think so!!
The Senna argument oftem comes up amongst my group of mates, problem is they are mostly non motorsport people who just think what they are told to think and as such Senna is/was the best.
He was a great driver, i am not saying he was'nt, but THE greatest? I dont think so, in MY opinion his driving style and his attitude are not much different from Schumacher. Both very aggressive, very calculating and very hard drivers, they know/knew what the car was and will do at all times. They both finished a race looking as calm and collected as when they started.
I think there are as many, if not more great Schumi drives than there are Senna. Silverstone stuck behind Hill springs to mind, towards the end of the race Schumacher kept going wide on the last corner, nobody knew what he was doing until the last-ish lap when all became clear. He had been 'cleaning' the track so that he could overtake on the outside.
So i agree, would he still be as highly regarded if he was still alive? No i dont think so, on paper, at least, Schumacher is the superior driver, there can not be an argument there, and in my opinion on the track as well.
Nick
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