Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...

[angrymoby]

For me Senna was a God ...that doesn't mean God's can't/ don't make mistakes

& I thought it was common knowledge that Williams/Head initially thought at the time that it was a steering issue, well- a power steering issue ...hence Damon resuming the race with with his turned off

[Fortitude]

VladD said:

I read Damon Hill's book when on holiday. Damon makes an interesting point that if Senna's steering column had broken as he was turning left, the release of resistance would have meant that Senna's right hand would have suddenly appeared as he would still have been applying a turning force to the steering wheel. As that didn't happen, the implication is that the column didn't break. He's obviously got a vested interest in protecting Williams, but his account of what happened leads me to believe that the accident was caused by low tyre pressures, a bumpy corner and loss of downforce.

RE: “Damon makes an interesting point that if Senna's steering column had broken as he was turning left, the release of resistance would have meant that Senna's right hand would have suddenly appeared as he would still have been applying a turning force to the steering wheel.”

You quote the ‘premise’ made by Damon Hill.

Please watch this video;

Video of the Ayrton Senna's car accident (onboard zoom)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKZnXpvqc-s



Note the last picture, in the video sequence where you will see that Senna’s helmet has come right over the left side of the cockpit, so it would be in the way of the right hand, if the premise made by Damon Hill was correct.

So with regards to your comment;

“As that didn't happen, the implication is that the column didn't break.”

IMHO, that bold statement by you, however much well intentioned, "...that it didn’t happen...", is undermined by that video footage and that picture.

[Fortitude]

Derek Smith said:

Someone writing a book in order to prove a point of view is not dependable. They are selling something. That's not to say it is not worth reading, but you should place little faith in any conclusions.

I have a book which shows that the police tried to fit up the 'Babes in the Wood' suspect. It was set to rock the legal world. Unfortunately, between printing and publication the suspect tried the same thing on another child - identical MO, but this time he was aware of forensic methods. I loaned the book to the SIO in charge of the second enquiry and he negated all the 'facts' raised by the author in a five minute chat.

It all boils down to whether you can trust the court of enquiry. There's nothing more to it than that. In order to understand how much faith we can place on their findings you need know their politics. There was much discussion on this at the time and, going by this thread, since.

The point of view of Williams is often dismissed as 'they would say that, wouldn't they', and there is a degree of truth in that. However, it goes for any court as well.

I don't know the truth of the incident. The thing is, I think that goes for everybody.

Thank you for your comments about the dependability of authors, books, courts of enquiries, Police investigations (Hillsborough, 'Babes in the Wood'). The question is, have you read Tom Rubython's book, 'Fatal Weekend'? If not, I would recommend it to you, as it also details the investigation by journalists into the death of Roland Ratzenberger, with an FIA insider handing BusinessF1 journalists all the documentation of the crash tests ten years earlier, with 20 photographs...

[VladD]

Fortitude said:

IMHO, that bold statement by you, however much well intentioned, "...that it didn’t happen...", is undermined by that video footage and that picture.

I've just watched the footage again, in slow motion, and his head is moving around. There are times when, if his right hand had been past the 12 o'clock position, you would have been able to see it. It's not conclusive, no argument from either side is, but it's enough to convince me.

[KaraK]

Fortitude said:

...though you omit comment about the official court of enquiry findings made by a panel of experts. Strange that you appear to not see that and/or worthy of comment by your scrutiny...

We'll I did discuss the inquiry earlier in the thread so didn't want to repeat myself.

[KaraK]

Fortitude said:

Thank you for your comments about the dependability of authors, books, courts of enquiries, Police investigations (Hillsborough, 'Babes in the Wood'). The question is, have you read Tom Rubython's book, 'Fatal Weekend'? If not, I would recommend it to you, as it also details the investigation by journalists into the death of Roland Ratzenberger, with an FIA insider handing BusinessF1 journalists all the documentation of the crash tests ten years earlier, with 20 photographs...

I've not read the book, but I would be wary of putting too much stock in a book written by someone who has twice lost libel cases relating to his F1 journalism and who apparently feels the need to give his own book a five star review on Amazon

[Fortitude]

VladD said:

Fortitude said:

IMHO, that bold statement by you, however much well intentioned, "...that it didn’t happen...", is undermined by that video footage and that picture.

I've just watched the footage again, in slow motion, and his head is moving around. There are times when, if his right hand had been past the 12 o'clock position, you would have been able to see it. It's not conclusive, no argument from either side is, but it's enough to convince me.

Thank you for viewing and replying.

So you viewed the whole video clip to see if it was possible for the right hand to be seen at any time during the whole clip and you didn't see it, so you are convinced...

The last second of the clip is IMHO, the moment which is the MOST important, as this is the point closest to the crash, focus on that, not the proceeding footage.

Please take time to watch this and read the comments of those who uploaded the You Tube clip;

Ayrton Senna's Last Lap - Imola 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLubadXiK4

[Fortitude]

Something has happened in those fateful last seconds in that car.

Note how Senna's helmet jerks to the left twice;

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

[VladD]

Fortitude said:

Thank you for viewing and replying.

So you viewed the whole video clip to see if it was possible for the right hand to be seen at any time during the whole clip and you didn't see it, so you are convinced...

The last second of the clip is IMHO, the moment which is the MOST important, as this is the point closest to the crash, focus on that, not the proceeding footage.

Please take time to watch this and read the comments of those who uploaded the You Tube clip;

Ayrton Senna's Last Lap - Imola 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiLubadXiK4

I read the comments and then looked at the Wiki linked with in them. It has an interesting quote in there.

"In May 2011, Williams FW16 designer Adrian Newey expressed his views on the accident: "The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There's no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure... If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher's following car, the car didn't understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it."

[VladD]

Fortitude said:

Something has happened in those fateful last seconds in that car.

Note how Senna's helmet jerks to the left twice;

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

What are you linking the movement of the helmet to?

[Fortitude]

VladD said:

I read the comments and then looked at the Wiki linked with in them. It has an interesting quote in there.

"In May 2011, Williams FW16 designer Adrian Newey expressed his views on the accident: "The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There's no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure... If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher's following car, the car didn't understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it."

So you read these comments then?

"PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING YOUR PERSONAL GUESSINGS ABOUT WHAT CAUSED THE ACCIDENT!!!

It was DETERMINED IN A LEGAL COURT that a poor job in the welding of the sterring bar caused this to break in the middle of Tamburello and caused the crash. Also it is NOT TRUE that Senna died because only of the injury caused by the piece of metal piercing the helmet. Instead what is true is that, added to the force of the impact that caused irreversible brain injury, were the causes for his death.

THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN MAKING YOURSELVES A GOOD PREVIOUS RESEARCH INSTEAD OF POSTING HERE THE TYPICAL COMMENTS "I THINK HE DIED BECAUSE A, B, C,.. Z. There was a trial and WILLIAMS team have been found GUILTY.

• *******

Last lap in Ayrton Senna's life, before crashing at Imola-San Marino GP in 1994. The steering column broke and the steering wheel came into Senna's hands before the crash, causing his death when the car hit the wall at the Tamburello corner. Patrick Head, Chief Engineer of the Williams team has been found guilty in the reopened trial in 2005 for Senna's death, but he never went to jail because too many years passed since the accident and the legal cause had prescribed.

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of...

"The Williams team was entangled for many years in a court case with the Italian prosecutors over manslaughter charges, ending in a guilty verdict for Patrick Head. The Italian Court of Appeal, on April 13, 2007, stated the following in the verdict numbered 15050: "It has been determined that the accident was caused by a steering column failure. This failure was caused by badly designed and badly executed modifications. The responsibility of this falls on Patrick Head, culpable of omitted control". Even being found responsible for Senna's accident, Patrick Head wasn't arrested: in Italy the statute of limitation for manslaughter is 7 years and 6 months, and the final verdict was pronounced 13 years after the accident."

[Derek Smith]

An Italian court decided so it must be true. All the doubt has been expunged.

If we move on it will allow those who only see one side of the argument, whichever that is, to be happy with their conclusions.

Those who think that, given all the guff from both sides, it will never be proven one way or that other or who think it's over, let it go, can retain their belief that it will never be proved either way.

As for whether Senna was overrated, then the obvious answer is that everyone is happy with their own opinion.

[Fortitude]

VladD said:

Fortitude said:

Something has happened in those fateful last seconds in that car.

Note how Senna's helmet jerks to the left twice;

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

What are you linking the movement of the helmet to?

Take a look at this clip;

Last Time onboard With ayrton senna. Imola 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvw1BpNxiKY#t=19se...

At 19 seconds approx. Ayrton Senna goes round a 90 degree left hand bend and note how the helmet appears on the left hand side of the cockpit.

ALSO, note how Senna’s helmet appears in the left hand side of the cockpit, the left front wheel of the car is turning to the left.

Then compare it to those last frames before the fatal crash.

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

Note how high Senna’s helmet is in the cockpit just before the crash, by comparing it to the previous clip…

ALSO, note how as the helmet appears in the left hand side of the cockpit just before the crash, the left front wheel of the car is NOT turning to the left, it is still pointing forwards.

RE: “What are you linking the movement of the helmet to?”

Senna attempting to turn the car to the left.

Tho position of the yellow button on the driving wheel shown in the following clip corroborates that the driving wheel was being turned significantly to the left, so much so, it was eventually out of view.

Video of the Ayrton Senna's car accident (onboard zoom)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKZnXpvqc-s


VladD, if you don’t want to entertain the idea that this was a mechanical failure, then this is my best shot at trying to convince you personally that it was.

In the last few seconds the driving wheel, is being turned to the left, BUT the left front wheel is heading straight on.

The body language of Senna’s helmet also suggests that Ayrton Senna is trying to turn left, BUT the left front wheel is heading straight on.

I C&P;

“The Italian Court of Appeal, on April 13, 2007, stated the following in the verdict numbered 15050: "It has been determined that the accident was caused by a steering column failure. This failure was caused by badly designed and badly executed modifications. The responsibility of this falls on Patrick Head, culpable of omitted control". Even being found responsible for Senna's accident, Patrick Head wasn't arrested: in Italy the statute of limitation for manslaughter is 7 years and 6 months, and the final verdict was pronounced 13 years after the accident."

Edited by Fortitude on Monday 22 May 17:13

Edited by Fortitude on Monday 22 May 17:20

[Fortitude]

VladD said:

Fortitude said:

Something has happened in those fateful last seconds in that car.

Note how Senna's helmet jerks to the left twice;

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

What are you linking the movement of the helmet to?

Take a look at this clip;

Last Time onboard With ayrton senna. Imola 1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvw1BpNxiKY#t=19se...

At 19 seconds approx. Ayrton Senna goes round a 90 degree left hand bend and note how the helmet appears on the left hand side of the cockpit.

ALSO, note how Senna’s helmet appears in the left hand side of the cockpit, the left front wheel of the car is turning to the left.

Then compare it to those last frames before the fatal crash.

Senna Fatal Crash Onboard (Hill/Schumacher/Senna)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE#t=58se...

Note how high Senna’s helmet is in the cockpit just before the crash, by comparing it to the previous clip…

ALSO, note how as the helmet appears in the left hand side of the cockpit just before the crash, the left front wheel of the car is NOT turning to the left, it is still pointing forwards.

RE: “What are you linking the movement of the helmet to?”

Senna attempting to turn the car to the left.

The position of the yellow button on the driving wheel shown in the following clip corroborates that the driving wheel was being turned significantly to the left, so much so, it was eventually out of view.

Video of the Ayrton Senna's car accident (onboard zoom)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKZnXpvqc-s


VladD, if you don’t want to entertain the idea that this was a mechanical failure, then this is my best shot at trying to convince you personally that it was.

In the last few seconds the driving wheel, is being turned to the left, BUT the left front wheel is heading straight on.

The body language of Senna’s helmet also suggests that Ayrton Senna is trying to turn left, BUT the left front wheel is heading straight.

I C&P;

“The Italian Court of Appeal, on April 13, 2007, stated the following in the verdict numbered 15050: "It has been determined that the accident was caused by a steering column failure. This failure was caused by badly designed and badly executed modifications. The responsibility of this falls on Patrick Head, culpable of omitted control". Even being found responsible for Senna's accident, Patrick Head wasn't arrested: in Italy the statute of limitation for manslaughter is 7 years and 6 months, and the final verdict was pronounced 13 years after the accident."

Edited by Fortitude on Monday 22 May 17:13

Edited by Fortitude on Monday 22 May 17:26

[Vocal Minority]

To be honest, if these threads prove anything - its that if the evidence is anything other than totally conclusive with the equivalent of big arrows pointing to the right bits....people will interpret it to fit their own hypothesis.

(I am not saying people are manipulating things, but naturally people will always see what they are expecting to see on something which leaves as much room for supposition as some of the footage)

[coppice]

'Is he overrated? ' was the question - and the answer is 'yes, by some of his more rabid fans'

The other question is 'why do some people spend time watching somebody get killed '? And , having seen it once they watch the same footage again and again . What outcome do they expect from their viewing ? I saw it in 94 and harbour no wish to see it again. Or is watching snuff movies more prevalent than I thought ?

[angrymoby]

Senna family seem to have let it go ...not entirely sure why others can't

[VladD]

Fortitude said:

VladD, if you don’t want to entertain the idea that this was a mechanical failure, then this is my best shot at trying to convince you personally that it was.

I don't doubt that it's possible that the steering broke and caused the accident, but its also possible that that accident broke the steering, you have to concede that. Don't forget that the original Italian inquiry determined that the crash wasn't caused by a steering failure and it then got changed on appeal, so it obviously is debatable and not clear cut.

Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher were following Senna and have both said that Senna had an unstable car and lost it over the bumps. I can see no reason to doubt their opinions as they're far more qualified to comment than random Youtube posters. Hill has a vested interested being a Williams driver at the time, but Schumacher has no reason to lie unless for personal reasons.

We're never going to agree, so, lets leave it there as we're off the topic.

Was Senna overrated? No.

[Roofless Toothless]

Fortitude said:

VladD said:

I read Damon Hill's book when on holiday. Damon makes an interesting point that if Senna's steering column had broken as he was turning left, the release of resistance would have meant that Senna's right hand would have suddenly appeared as he would still have been applying a turning force to the steering wheel. As that didn't happen, the implication is that the column didn't break. He's obviously got a vested interest in protecting Williams, but his account of what happened leads me to believe that the accident was caused by low tyre pressures, a bumpy corner and loss of downforce.

RE: “Damon makes an interesting point that if Senna's steering column had broken as he was turning left, the release of resistance would have meant that Senna's right hand would have suddenly appeared as he would still have been applying a turning force to the steering wheel.”

Looking at the reflection in that mirror, is the visor cracked open half an inch? I know drivers do that to help with steaming up. Might note have helped when stuff started to fly around.

You quote the ‘premise’ made by Damon Hill.

Please watch this video;

Video of the Ayrton Senna's car accident (onboard zoom)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKZnXpvqc-s



Note the last picture, in the video sequence where you will see that Senna’s helmet has come right over the left side of the cockpit, so it would be in the way of the right hand, if the premise made by Damon Hill was correct.

So with regards to your comment;

“As that didn't happen, the implication is that the column didn't break.”

IMHO, that bold statement by you, however much well intentioned, "...that it didn’t happen...", is undermined by that video footage and that picture.

Looking at the reflection in the mirror, isn't that visor cracked open half an inch? I know drivers do that to help with steaming up. It might not have helped when stuff started to fly around and into his face.

[carl_w]

coppice said:

'Is he overrated? ' was the question - and the answer is 'yes, by some of his more rabid fans'

The other question is 'why do some people spend time watching somebody get killed '? And , having seen it once they watch the same footage again and again . What outcome do they expect from their viewing ? I saw it in 94 and harbour no wish to see it again. Or is watching snuff movies more prevalent than I thought ?

Same here -- watched it live and have no desire to dissect it frame by frame (although I do have the Senna movie on Blu-Ray -- big mistake in format as most of it is sub-480p 80s TV).