Ayrton Senna is overrated. Discuss...
Discussion
In a separate observation, I was lucky enough to meet Senna in 1992 and chat to him for a while. Very nice guy, was telling jokes and very much interested in who he was meeting. Sponsor commitments were part of it, but he didn't seem to be following a scripted party line, in fact anything but...
I didn't like or respect much of what he did on the track, but he seemed to be a nice guy 1:1, and drove every car to the limit of it's capability.
Look at his team mates, no slouches and the awe they held him in (Prost respected his speed if not his track manners)?
I didn't like or respect much of what he did on the track, but he seemed to be a nice guy 1:1, and drove every car to the limit of it's capability.
Look at his team mates, no slouches and the awe they held him in (Prost respected his speed if not his track manners)?
nlockie93 said:
I don't think he was overrated but rather some of his achievements have been over hyped. The famous race at Monaco for example where he was catching Prost in the rain while driving the Toleman is often brought up as a showcase for his talent but nearly always the fact that Stefan Bellof was catching Prost and Senna at much quicker rate than Senna was catching Prost is nearly always overlooked. Another example of this is at Donnington when he went from 4th to 1st in one lap, while at the same time Rubens Barrichello went from 12th place to 4th on the same lap in a much more inferior car, so overall he was very good but I feel he is often given more credit then he may have been due.
Also overlooked that Bellof's car was normally aspirated and thus the most suited to a heavy rain Monaco than any of the other cars racing that day. Also, the Tyrrell team's results were erased later in the season due to weight infringements, meaning that Bellof was stripped of his podium finish, with his place being taken by René Arnoux.toppstuff said:
As a long time fan of F1, I must confess to being a bit puzzled by the deifying of Ayrton Senna.
To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
Hi toppstuff!To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
"Over-rated" is a relative term. It is also qualitative, and therefore necessarily subjective – which is why I think your question justifies debate.
Over-rated in general – i.e. by the population of contributors to this forum or public consensus; or over-rated relative to his peers, according to his peer-group? Before knowing quite where you're coming from, I'll guess that I'm probably in agreement with you. He was a great driver but he was certainly flawed.
If he'd lived, history would have helped provide a clearer answer – or perhaps even negated the question. As it is, Ayrton Senna departed this world too soon and left a gaping vacuum.
If the consensus is that he was/is 'The Greatest', I'd have to volunteer that he is over-rated.
If the consensus is that he was/is not in the top 10, I'd have to volunteer that he is under-rated.
In my opinion, he was one of 'The Greats'.
Probably not too dissimilar to Schumacher – to which I should add that statistics are quantitive, not qualitative!
toppstuff said:
As a long time fan of F1, I must confess to being a bit puzzled by the deifying of Ayrton Senna.
To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
You are definitely in a minority; most people who follow F1 have a semblance of intelligence.To me, he was an exciting but flawed champion.
His petulance, inconsistency and unsporting side, for me, severely knocks his position as one of the greats.
Maybe I am in a minority, I don't know.
What the PH collective view?
Donnington, wet, first lap. If you still need further examples give me a shout.
I look forward to your 'Fangio, he was b*ll*cks' thread.
He was a thug on the track and his behaviour led to a lowering of driving standards in F1. He should've been stripped of his title and banned from F1 for what he did to Prost to win it. I'm of the opinion had that happened Schumacher may well have adopted a different style. Senna had such an ability he didn't need to resort to the downright dangerous to win. I shall now wait for the abuse to follow from his fans who think he was God on wheels and can see no wrong in the way he drove.
I liked sennas arrogance
I think when the cars were so much harder to drive back then that puts skill into perspective
These days the car is managed electronically by a host of engineers and has been said like a PlayStation these days
I have a lot of respect for him and I think he was one of the greatest
I think when the cars were so much harder to drive back then that puts skill into perspective
These days the car is managed electronically by a host of engineers and has been said like a PlayStation these days
I have a lot of respect for him and I think he was one of the greatest
I was lucky enough to spend an afternoon with Prof. Sid Watkins in 1996. A lovely man and he very happily chatted about drivers with no hint of the political correctness and PR speak we have today. Inevitably our conversation was mainly about Senna, this was about two years after he passed away.
I thought he was a great anyway just on the back of what he had done in 1992 and 1993 in a far from dominant car, plus those poles in an evil handling Williams in 1994.
Sid gave me a lot of insight into what made him tick, what motivated him and how he was a true racer. He would never have willingly retired from the sport as it was all he lived for and probably gone on as long as physically possible. He also told me a lot about his sense of humour, he used to visit Sid at the Royal London in Whitechapel and loved going for a curry in Brick Lane as it was one of the few places he could go out and not be hassled. Senna donated far more money than any other driver to charities but always on condition of anonymity. He also helped many families of team members, even teams he no longer drove for.
I always had a lot of respect for his achievements and ability on the track but if anything had even more respect for the person after talking in such detail to his friend.
The original poster is talking absolute bo**ocks. If anything he was underrated as he never got the proper credit in his lifetime and no one had an insight into the real man until long after his passing.
I thought he was a great anyway just on the back of what he had done in 1992 and 1993 in a far from dominant car, plus those poles in an evil handling Williams in 1994.
Sid gave me a lot of insight into what made him tick, what motivated him and how he was a true racer. He would never have willingly retired from the sport as it was all he lived for and probably gone on as long as physically possible. He also told me a lot about his sense of humour, he used to visit Sid at the Royal London in Whitechapel and loved going for a curry in Brick Lane as it was one of the few places he could go out and not be hassled. Senna donated far more money than any other driver to charities but always on condition of anonymity. He also helped many families of team members, even teams he no longer drove for.
I always had a lot of respect for his achievements and ability on the track but if anything had even more respect for the person after talking in such detail to his friend.
The original poster is talking absolute bo**ocks. If anything he was underrated as he never got the proper credit in his lifetime and no one had an insight into the real man until long after his passing.
I have far less 'close hand' perspective to work from than CGT2 but my perspective is, Off-Track the guy was an execeptional member of the paddock with a true servant heart, wanting to help others..
'On Track' I think I would find being his team-mate or perhaps even his team boss, difficult and if I were a fellow competitor on the track, I wouldn't doubt we would have fallen out more than once. However, Senna was an absolute racer and a truly gifted driver. I think he deserved some of his criticism at the time but he very much deserves the regard he has received over the 22 years since his death..
'On Track' I think I would find being his team-mate or perhaps even his team boss, difficult and if I were a fellow competitor on the track, I wouldn't doubt we would have fallen out more than once. However, Senna was an absolute racer and a truly gifted driver. I think he deserved some of his criticism at the time but he very much deserves the regard he has received over the 22 years since his death..
hairyben said:
He's brown bread, therein ends objective discussion.
Probably easier to remember what was said about Simonchelli's riding not so long before his accident, and the deafening silence since.
I remember making a comment about 1 minute before the crash, it was "this is not going to end well"Probably easier to remember what was said about Simonchelli's riding not so long before his accident, and the deafening silence since.
Miss watching him, was always amazing.
footsoldier said:
Simple answer - ask any racing driver of that time, who was the best?
Anyone who thinks he might be overrated, doesn't understand...
Indeed and the person best qualified to judge would probably be Alain Prost. Yes they made their peace in early 1994 (which sadly the documentary never showed for sensationalist reasons) but even when they were racing and at the height of their problems I remember Prost always commenting on Senna's incredible ability. Anyone who thinks he might be overrated, doesn't understand...
Later on he reflected back and said that Senna was simply on a different level of ability and it was hard for the others to understand just how much better he was as it was such a vast gap.
Its normal that when someone famous dies, all the bad parts of their character tend to get forgotten about. I watched Senna throughout his F1 career and disliked him for the way he bullied people off the track in his pursuit of what he thought was his God given right, to win every race he entered. He thought nothing of crashing into people to get his way (Prost, Suzuka, 1990), endangering not only himself but his fellow competitors. He was nevertheless exciting to watch with great car control, his number of pole positions is testament to that. Plus the fact he was still able to win in cars that weren't the quickest on the grid.
It appears from what was written about him that out of the car he was a very generous and kind man, look at all the charity work he did in his own country, so in some ways he had a good and dark side to his personality that balanced out.
He would no doubt be one of my top drivers, but it has to be said that Jim Clark was the best, even Senna regarded him as the greatest. Of course Clark came from an era where if you didn't give respect and room to a driver, you would most certainly be killed if you crashed together.
I guess when you lay your life on the line and pay the ultimate price, people will forgive/forget your flaws and put you up on a pedestal.
It appears from what was written about him that out of the car he was a very generous and kind man, look at all the charity work he did in his own country, so in some ways he had a good and dark side to his personality that balanced out.
He would no doubt be one of my top drivers, but it has to be said that Jim Clark was the best, even Senna regarded him as the greatest. Of course Clark came from an era where if you didn't give respect and room to a driver, you would most certainly be killed if you crashed together.
I guess when you lay your life on the line and pay the ultimate price, people will forgive/forget your flaws and put you up on a pedestal.
Like I said...ask those who understand best...
http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
Doesn't mean he was at all flawless, but having flaws (or dying early) doesn't make him overrated either.
http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=1
Doesn't mean he was at all flawless, but having flaws (or dying early) doesn't make him overrated either.
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