F1 Brake pedal pressures. Why so high ?

F1 Brake pedal pressures. Why so high ?

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Discussion

Slippydiff

Original Poster:

10,165 posts

162 months

Sunday 18th September 2016
quotequote all
From this article :

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2015/6...

"Believe it or not the driver has to apply over 930kg of pedal load per lap in Canada - an incredible 65,590kg over the course of the 70-lap race - and it’s all down to the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve’s unique blend of high-speed straights and tight bends."

Not sure if the figures quoted are correct ? and I get drivers need "feel" through the brake pedal, and that having brakes that could lock the wheels/tyres solid at 200mph isn't an option, but why are drivers required to utilise such high brake pedal pressures ? Is it a function of the carbon/carbon brakes ?

Munter

28,385 posts

180 months

Sunday 18th September 2016
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
From this article :
Is it a function of the carbon/carbon brakes ?
I'd have thought with "brake by wire" that wouldn't be the issue.

stevesingo

3,432 posts

161 months

Sunday 18th September 2016
quotequote all
I think some poetic licence is being applied and some use of units have been mis-applied.

Slippydiff

Original Poster:

10,165 posts

162 months

Sunday 18th September 2016
quotequote all
stevesingo said:
I think some poetic licence is being applied and some use of units have been mis-applied.
950kg per lap, CGV looks to have 6 big stops, so 150kgs per stop (the figure I've heard bandied about) so not perhaps not that unbelievable ?
But 150kgs force applied every stop seems an unnecessarily high work load for drivers (irrespective of their fitness) hence the original question smile

Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 18th September 22:03

CraigyMc

10,973 posts

175 months

Monday 19th September 2016
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
950kg per lap, CGV looks to have 6 big stops, so 150kgs per stop (the figure I've heard bandied about) so not perhaps not that unbelievable ?
But 150kgs force applied every stop seems an unnecessarily high work load for drivers (irrespective of their fitness) hence the original question smile
It's true but don't forget that when braking hard the drivers foot will also be mashed into the pedal by g force. His leg might weigh 12kg under normal conditions but the equivalent of 60kg of force will be throwing that leg into the pedal while braking at 5g.

The heavier the brakes the easier it is to modulate them.
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thebraketester

7,061 posts

77 months

Monday 19th September 2016
quotequote all
I would guess that they are under servo'd on purpose to try and avoid lock ups and to give the drive more control.

mycool

225 posts

141 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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I was fortunate enough to have a go in Ferraris basic simulator setup that they take to sponsors events. In that they had the pedal pressure set up the same as Alonso and it had virtually no travel and was like trying to press a solid block. However, once you got used to it and if you hit it hard in the initial braking phase you had a lot of feel despite the very short pedal travel.

A friend who has driven in F1 confirmed the same although that was before brake by wire was introduced but I'd suspect they would try to mirror the same pedal feel with that system.

kambites

56,096 posts

160 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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Unless I'm missing something, "kg per lap" makes no sense whatsoever as a unit.

Pdelamare

596 posts

67 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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No servo assistance.

HustleRussell

15,934 posts

99 months

Monday 19th September 2016
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kambites said:
Unless I'm missing something, "kg per lap" makes no sense whatsoever as a unit.
Indeed, it's like saying you can bench press 600kg when what you really mean is you can bench press 50kg twelve times.

SpeckledJim

17,828 posts

192 months

Monday 19th September 2016
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
kambites said:
Unless I'm missing something, "kg per lap" makes no sense whatsoever as a unit.
Indeed, it's like saying you can bench press 600kg when what you really mean is you can bench press 50kg twelve times.
Indeed. A nonsense.

stevesingo

3,432 posts

161 months

Monday 19th September 2016
quotequote all
Slippydiff said:
stevesingo said:
I think some poetic licence is being applied and some use of units have been mis-applied.
950kg per lap, CGV looks to have 6 big stops, so 150kgs per stop (the figure I've heard bandied about) so not perhaps not that unbelievable ?
But 150kgs force applied every stop seems an unnecessarily high work load for drivers (irrespective of their fitness) hence the original question smile

Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 18th September 22:03
For a start kg is a unit of mass not force. Force is measured in Newtons.

And as others have posted 150kg, or 1471N of force applied 6times is not 900kg or 8826N of force being applied.

Utter bks aimed at the hard of thinking casual motorsport fans.

Adrian W

11,177 posts

167 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
quotequote all
I cant see why the brake pressure would be any different to and other non servo'd car, surely the braking is dictated by the coefficients of friction and heat.

S0 What

3,339 posts

111 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
I cant see why the brake pressure would be any different to and other non servo'd car, surely the braking is dictated by the coefficients of friction and heat.
Maximum braking effort is dictated by tyre grip, the grippyer the tyres the more pressure you can apply to the pedal without locking the wheels ? no? that's why when it's icey you can't apply hardy any pressure to the pedal ?

Gary C

4,751 posts

118 months

Thursday 22nd September 2016
quotequote all
S0 What said:
Adrian W said:
I cant see why the brake pressure would be any different to and other non servo'd car, surely the braking is dictated by the coefficients of friction and heat.
Maximum braking effort is dictated by tyre grip, the grippyer the tyres the more pressure you can apply to the pedal without locking the wheels ? no? that's why when it's icey you can't apply hardy any pressure to the pedal ?
And of course you need to factor mechanical advantage of the lever, piston size etc.

Z3MCJez

459 posts

111 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
kambites said:
Unless I'm missing something, "kg per lap" makes no sense whatsoever as a unit.
This. It's just a journalist writing some garbage.

Jez

Z3MCJez

459 posts

111 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
I cant see why the brake pressure would be any different to and other non servo'd car, surely the braking is dictated by the coefficients of friction and heat.
But pedal load will be. Which is why you have to push the pedal on your Caterham, but not your daily hack which has "servo-assisted" brakes.

Jez

SpeckledJim

17,828 posts

192 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Whoever wrote it should be sacked.

Either they are so clueless that they didn't know what they were parroting was meaningless, which makes them incompetent and lazy.

Or they knew it made no sense and wrote it anyway, which makes them disrespectful to their readers and lazy.


kambites

56,096 posts

160 months

Friday 23rd September 2016
quotequote all
Adrian W said:
I cant see why the brake pressure would be any different to and other non servo'd car, surely the braking is dictated by the coefficients of friction and heat.
Downforce increases effective tyre grip. As a general rule, road cars don't pull 5G+ under braking. smile

red_slr

8,009 posts

128 months

Tuesday 27th September 2016
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Its all a bit of hype. Its no different to any other race car type set up really. Yes a lot firmer than a road car but its does not require super human strength. Nothing on an F1 car requires that level of fitness other than dealing with the g forces and heat. They are the 2 main issues. The actual controls are pretty easy as far as race cars go.

F1 drivers don't need to be ultra strong, as with all sports they now train for very specific goals.
100m runners are looking to get that 100m done in as few strides as possible in the shortest time. Deploy maximum energy for 10 seconds. Big muscles need lots of oxygen and lots of calories.

F1 drivers are looking to maintain their performance levels for around 2 hours with no drop off in things like reaction times or fatigue. They need to be fit, very fit, but not super human.

There is a reason some people refer to them as jockeys..