Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
Durzel said:
Good points well made.
I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
Indeed, racing can be very frustrating as the car is such a big factor.I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
I don’t think there is any reason to suggest Charles would be ‘bossing Lewis around’ were he driving a Mercedes. What we have seen post summer break is exactly what you are alluding to, IE a car swaying things in one direction. What’s clear is LeClerc is very much the real deal and hard to cope with for Seb. I’m sure if he were Lewis’s team mate it would be entertaining for us but at present I think Hamilton is still very much the star of F1.
BTW it’s illuminating to go back and have a look at the pre-F1 careers of the drivers of you are curious to see how they did in equal cars.
paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Good points well made.
I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
Indeed, racing can be very frustrating as the car is such a big factor.I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
I don’t think there is any reason to suggest Charles would be ‘bossing Lewis around’ were he driving a Mercedes. What we have seen post summer break is exactly what you are alluding to, IE a car swaying things in one direction. What’s clear is LeClerc is very much the real deal and hard to cope with for Seb. I’m sure if he were Lewis’s team mate it would be entertaining for us but at present I think Hamilton is still very much the star of F1.
BTW it’s illuminating to go back and have a look at the pre-F1 careers of the drivers of you are curious to see how they did in equal cars.
I sound like a broken record; but in lower formulae; the cars are nigh on the same and there are times where you can compare - Vettel and Hamilton is just one example of there being great footage of them duelling in lower formulae; equal cars.
vdn said:
paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Good points well made.
I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
Indeed, racing can be very frustrating as the car is such a big factor.I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
I don’t think there is any reason to suggest Charles would be ‘bossing Lewis around’ were he driving a Mercedes. What we have seen post summer break is exactly what you are alluding to, IE a car swaying things in one direction. What’s clear is LeClerc is very much the real deal and hard to cope with for Seb. I’m sure if he were Lewis’s team mate it would be entertaining for us but at present I think Hamilton is still very much the star of F1.
BTW it’s illuminating to go back and have a look at the pre-F1 careers of the drivers of you are curious to see how they did in equal cars.
I sound like a broken record; but in lower formulae; the cars are nigh on the same and there are times where you can compare - Vettel and Hamilton is just one example of there being great footage of them duelling in lower formulae; equal cars.
HighwayStar said:
Alas cars that are nigh on the same isn't F1. Who best interprets the rule book, the strategy, the development race, changing and adapting tactics during race conditions. Its what I like... There are others series I could watch if I want to see drivers in similar cars.
F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1. kambites said:
HighwayStar said:
Alas cars that are nigh on the same isn't F1. Who best interprets the rule book, the strategy, the development race, changing and adapting tactics during race conditions. Its what I like... There are others series I could watch if I want to see drivers in similar cars.
F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1. 
yonex said:
HighwayStar said:
Exactly...
It used to be about racing. Sadly that died. Where was the racing when lots of cars didn’t make it to the end or whole laps down?
kambites said:
F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1. A key objective of Liberty is to dumb-down car design and put the driver in control. I guess that they would be happy to lose the 1% of fans that actually care about the technical design, in order to gain another 10% who currently would rather spend their time at a PC console playing, rather than watch the same 6 cars / drivers act out the script that has been pre-determined on simulators and finessed during FP sessions.
At the moment the media is building up a massive feud between Seb and Charles. It makes for good reading and Social Media speculation.
The fact that Ferrari have made a genuine leap in technology since the summer break, is the really hot news. We can see the result, but no one has an idea what they have done, because it is a secret. As we are not likely to find out in the future, it is hard to understand why someone might think the technological race is all-important.
Dumbing down car design would see a lot of the teams walking I would have thought. F1 has always been about man and Machine, never exclusively one. There’s already a ton of series where the cars are the same. F1 is probably in its final decade or two anyway as FE is where are the money and brands are heading these days.
rdjohn said:
kambites said:
F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1. A key objective of Liberty is to dumb-down car design and put the driver in control. I guess that they would be happy to lose the 1% of fans that actually care about the technical design, in order to gain another 10% who currently would rather spend their time at a PC console playing, rather than watch the same 6 cars / drivers act out the script that has been pre-determined on simulators and finessed during FP sessions.
At the moment the media is building up a massive feud between Seb and Charles. It makes for good reading and Social Media speculation.
The fact that Ferrari have made a genuine leap in technology since the summer break, is the really hot news. We can see the result, but no one has an idea what they have done, because it is a secret. As we are not likely to find out in the future, it is hard to understand why someone might think the technological race is all-important.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
HighwayStar said:
Toto believes Mercedes changing more of their focus on the 2020 car and Ferrari pressing on with updates part of the reason Merc have appeared to underperform post summer break...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
That does not explain the significant shift in straight line performance. Increased power of the P3 unit does not seem to show in the customer cars, but back-to-back with Mercedes it was obvious. Lewis could pull time back in corners, so it does not seem to be aero.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
But this is my beef - we just do not know, because it is secret. And therefore useless as a reasonable sporting milestone.
If you look at another high-tech sport like Americas Cup, by the end of the series it is usually obvious why a team won. The best boat tends to get to be the challenger, but the best crew tends to win.
HighwayStar said:
Toto believes Mercedes changing more of their focus on the 2020 car and Ferrari pressing on with updates part of the reason Merc have appeared to underperform post summer break...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
What's interesting is that by always being second if not first... Mercedes have actually performed exactly as well as Ferrari since the summer break. Bot teams have taken 133 points.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
Admittedly that says more about the cost of Seb screwing up quite often than anything else.
It does also show, however, how important it is that both Mercedes drivers keep their heads and run a good race effort, even if for them it's not a 'good' race. They nearly always take the most points they reasonably could be expected to.That means any team that is technically 'better' on some level needs a long and sustained string of victories to reel them in. Ferrari can't seem to sustain that sort of performance for long enough with a team or Vettel cock up resetting the balance.
TheDeuce said:
HighwayStar said:
Toto believes Mercedes changing more of their focus on the 2020 car and Ferrari pressing on with updates part of the reason Merc have appeared to underperform post summer break...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
What's interesting is that by always being second if not first... Mercedes have actually performed exactly as well as Ferrari since the summer break. Bot teams have taken 133 points.https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2020-f...
Admittedly that says more about the cost of Seb screwing up quite often than anything else.
It does also show, however, how important it is that both Mercedes drivers keep their heads and run a good race effort, even if for them it's not a 'good' race. They nearly always take the most points they reasonably could be expected to.That means any team that is technically 'better' on some level needs a long and sustained string of victories to reel them in. Ferrari can't seem to sustain that sort of performance for long enough with a team or Vettel cock up resetting the balance.
HighwayStar said:
If Merc can sustain their current level of performance whilst not bring much in the way of additional performance to the car for the remain races, it could be ominous for 2020. I imagine they are expecting Ferrari and RedBull to be much closer next season and want to be ready as early as possible.
Yes - if they take both titles next season then their and Lewis's stint in F1 has been as great as possible pretty much, it's a valuable thing to secure! And I'm sure with this season nearly wrapped up, they won't want to lose any time towards securing their goals.Then after next season, who the f knows what the field of play will look like? This is their big chance, prior to 2021 to become legendary. Hence, I think we'll see their biggest development push yet. They get one chance to round off their dominant streak beautifully, they will throw everything at it
rdjohn said:
kambites said:
F1 has always been about the cars first and the drivers second. Change that and it would, IMO, no longer be F1. A key objective of Liberty is to dumb-down car design and put the driver in control. I guess that they would be happy to lose the 1% of fans that actually care about the technical design, in order to gain another 10% who currently would rather spend their time at a PC console playing, rather than watch the same 6 cars / drivers act out the script that has been pre-determined on simulators and finessed during FP sessions.
At the moment the media is building up a massive feud between Seb and Charles. It makes for good reading and Social Media speculation.
The fact that Ferrari have made a genuine leap in technology since the summer break, is the really hot news. We can see the result, but no one has an idea what they have done, because it is a secret. As we are not likely to find out in the future, it is hard to understand why someone might think the technological race is all-important.
Formula E, I suppose, has similar potential.
rdjohn said:
That does not explain the significant shift in straight line performance. Increased power of the P3 unit does not seem to show in the customer cars, but back-to-back with Mercedes it was obvious. Lewis could pull time back in corners, so it does not seem to be aero.
But this is my beef - we just do not know, because it is secret. And therefore useless as a reasonable sporting milestone.
If you look at another high-tech sport like Americas Cup, by the end of the series it is usually obvious why a team won. The best boat tends to get to be the challenger, but the best crew tends to win.
I don't think it's so much an improvement in the P3 unit. For the whole season the Ferrari seems to have the better low downforce package, more power from the ICE and better deployment. The straight line performance has been better all season and most of last. What looks to have changed, since the break, is that Ferrari now have an improved aero package for medium downforce circuits. If they had that from Australia this might be a different championship.But this is my beef - we just do not know, because it is secret. And therefore useless as a reasonable sporting milestone.
If you look at another high-tech sport like Americas Cup, by the end of the series it is usually obvious why a team won. The best boat tends to get to be the challenger, but the best crew tends to win.
Graveworm said:
I don't think it's so much an improvement in the P3 unit. For the whole season the Ferrari seems to have the better low downforce package, more power from the ICE and better deployment. The straight line performance has been better all season and most of last. What looks to have changed, since the break, is that Ferrari now have an improved aero package for medium downforce circuits. If they had that from Australia this might be a different championship.
It could have been just about neck and neck if they had had such a package from the start - potentially at least. I think Mercedes would still take the lead due to a marginally better overall package for the full season's worth of tracks, and frankly, making far less mistakes than Ferrari and their increasingly flaky German driver.Certainly something for Mercedes to think on going into next season though.. Although I'm somewhat confident that if they care about one thing in their F1 future, it's throwing all resources at making certain next season is theirs too.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
And Mercedes today remains the best package over race distance.
Even if that were true, it is moot when the Ferrari currently has a significant qualifying advantage and is quantifiably faster on the straights. I suspect if Hamilton were given a choice of car at the moment he would pick a red one.Also if Hamilton were a Ferrari driver, you’d be claiming that the Ferrari is the car which is the ‘better package over a race distance’. It’s clear you have a particular drum you always beat.
Edited by paulguitar on Thursday 3rd October 09:40
If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car. His theoretical employment at Ferrari over the past few years would have made zero difference to the Scuderia.
Journeyman Bottas being 2nd in the WDC underscores the superiority of the Brackley car and team, apart from when it rains at Hockenheim
Ferrari now has some speed and it's good that CLC seems able to exploit it
Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20
Bo_apex said:
If Hamilton could pedal a piece of recalcitrant poo I would applaud it.
His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car.
I take it then you were similarly unimpressed by Alonso and Button in the McLaren Honda?His results with McLaren from 2009 show that he cannot hustle a subpar car.
Edited by Bo_apex on Friday 4th October 22:20
I think it’s been pretty well established that an uncompetitive car cannot be taken far beyond its shortcomings in modern F1, the best that can be hoped for is to beat one’s teammate. In 2009 Hamilton placed 5th in the WDC, his teammate 12th, with fewer than half the points of Hamilton.
Also, Hamilton won with that 2009 McLaren. Twice.
I don't know what you’re smoking, but I want to try some!
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