Lewis Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton

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paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
Mercedes remains the best car over race distance, and Lewis knows it.
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.


37chevy

3,212 posts

103 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
But that's not actually the case is it ?

Mercedes remains the best car over race distance, and Lewis knows it.
Ahhh so that’s why Bottas is at the front, beating the ferraris race after race....oh, wait...

isaldiri

4,977 posts

115 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?

paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?


isaldiri

4,977 posts

115 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?
Well you seem to have been implying that the Merc has been rubbish all season but only Hamilton is keeping the Merc competitive.

Wills2

16,156 posts

122 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?
Well you seem to have been implying that the Merc has been rubbish all season but only Hamilton is keeping the Merc competitive.
Well no one can deny he is a big factor, take the last weekend as an example, manages to split the Ferrari's and cause a strategic over think and then a melt down....walks away with the win.

Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.





REALIST123

12,210 posts

100 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?
Well you seem to have been implying that the Merc has been rubbish all season but only Hamilton is keeping the Merc competitive.
Well no one can deny he is a big factor, take the last weekend as an example, manages to split the Ferrari's and cause a strategic over think and then a melt down....walks away with the win.

Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.



You’re attributing Vettel’s technical failure to Hamilton? I’ve heard it all now.

There’s little doubt that the Mercedes would have been the Championship winning car since 2014 with any of the top 5 or 6 drivers, all other things being the same.

We’ve seen recently that even Hamilton, and I happily accept that there’s no one better overall than him on the grid, can’t win if there’s a faster car out there with one of the other top drivers.

paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?
Well you seem to have been implying that the Merc has been rubbish all season but only Hamilton is keeping the Merc competitive.
No, the Merc was usually the best car before the summer break.

Since then, Hamilton has been driving out of his skin and putting it where it really shouldn’t be.

CoolHands

10,047 posts

142 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
, manages to split the Ferrari's and cause a strategic over think and then a melt down....walks away with the win.
Exactly, that run caused a huge amount of discussion, planning etc at Ferrari and then screwed them up with strategy as Ferrari tried to undo Vettel. Where was bottas 2.0? Nowhere as usual,and I’m sure he’s a brilliant driver. But Hamilton did what he did, then as usual made no mistakes, and took the win. He knows how to piece everything together, when to go fast to apply pressure, etc.

paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
You’re attributing Vettel’s technical failure to Hamilton? I’ve heard it all now.
You know perfectly well that is not what's being said.

Hamilton pulled out a win when it should not have happened by applying pressure and having pace on a different level to the other driver of the same car.

What's more, the Mercedes has not been the best car all the time since 2014, and even during the times when it hasn't, much of 2017, for example, Hamilton has still got the results.

Bo_apex

1,020 posts

165 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
What's more, the Mercedes has not been the best car all the time since 2014, and even during the times when it hasn't, much of 2017, for example, Hamilton has still got the results.
Rosberg and Hamilton shared an equal 59 front row starts each.

Mercedes was in a separate class.

paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
Bo_apex said:
Rosberg and Hamilton shared an equal 59 front row starts each.

Mercedes was in a separate class.
As far as I can recall Rosberg was retired in 2017?

Durzel

7,929 posts

115 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........?
Because the Merc was usually the class of the field prior to the summer break.

Have you not been watching the whole season?
Well you seem to have been implying that the Merc has been rubbish all season but only Hamilton is keeping the Merc competitive.
Well no one can deny he is a big factor, take the last weekend as an example, manages to split the Ferrari's and cause a strategic over think and then a melt down....walks away with the win.

Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.



Hamilton has always been the difference maker, he's a great driver and very consistent.

BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.

People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.

37chevy said:
Ahhh so that’s why Bottas is at the front, beating the ferraris race after race....oh, wait...
That Bottas is up at the front at all speaks to the power of the Mercedes, and makes the opposite point to the one you're trying to make. Look at his performance record since joining Mercedes, he got 3rd once in 2016 - his highest place, then the following year, at Mercedes, he gets 3rd 4 times, 2nd 6 times and won 3 times... I guess he just became a mega driver over Christmas 2016 or something....

Sadly we will never know what would be if Hamilton had been in the Ferrari at the start of the season, when they weren't remotely competitive, and Vettel in the Merc. I can quite believe that people would claim that he would somehow have defied the odds, the aerodynamics, reliability and engine performance to win GP after GP, like he has in the Merc. I prefer to be a realist about it though.

Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:32

paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
Durzel said:
Hamilton has always been the difference maker, he's a great driver and very consistent.

BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.

People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.

Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:24
Nobody, as far as I can see, is suggesting that Ferrari has ‘always had the advantage’.

The Merc has clearly been the car to have in the hybrid era, overall. However, to say it has always had the advantage is simply incorrect. For a lot of 2017 the Ferrari was the better car as it currently is, since the summer break. I’d expect the Merc to possibly have an advantage in japan but the be crap in Mexico as per usual.

I think one of Hamilton’s greatest strengths is the ability to learn and accept he can always be better. He’s always had an extraordinary natural talent, obvious to any reasonably clued up observer since the days of cadet karts.

He certainly made more mistakes in 2011/2012 than now, whilst at the same time still having a lot of success. What’s notable is that he has almost entirely eradicated those mistakes whilst retaining the other-worldly talent.

Durzel

7,929 posts

115 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Hamilton has always been the difference maker, he's a great driver and very consistent.

BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.

People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.

Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:24
Nobody, as far as I can see, is suggesting that Ferrari has ‘always had the advantage’.

The Merc has clearly been the car to have in the hybrid era, overall. However, to say it has always had the advantage is simply incorrect. For a lot of 2017 the Ferrari was the better car as it currently is, since the summer break. I’d expect the Merc to possibly have an advantage in japan but the be crap in Mexico as per usual.

I think one of Hamilton’s greatest strengths is the ability to learn and accept he can always be better. He’s always had an extraordinary natural talent, obvious to any reasonably clued up observer since the days of cadet karts.

He certainly made more mistakes in 2011/2012 than now, whilst at the same time still having a lot of success. What’s notable is that he has almost entirely eradicated those mistakes whilst retaining the other-worldly talent.
With respect, you yourself have said that Hamilton is driving the car "out of his skin", using language that suggests that he's hauling the car across the finish line, against the odds, etc. I would argue that is a misrepresentation of the truth, unless you believe Bottas - who came 2nd - has somehow turned into a top top tier driver who you would previously have mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton in the past.

My attitude really is that Hamilton has always been one of the best drivers, and was hamstrung by the inadequacies of the McLaren relative to the RBR (as was everyone else) during that era, but has now found himself in the best all round car. Ferrari are competitive now for sure, but they haven't been consistently competitive for a long period before then. Some of that can be put down to their hopeless mistakes, but on that front to be fair to them when you're on the back foot having to throw the kitchen sink at the race to try and get in the mix mistakes happen. Mercedes have had the luxury of being able to evolve an already dominant car, everyone else has to try revolutionising theirs.

This has all been compounded by the fact that Vettel seems to be more susceptible to pressure than Hamilton and others, so has made winnable situations unwinnable.

But, ultimately, when Vettel was in the best car, out front, he was flawless. I agree with your point in the other thread about the fact you don't just luck into 4 WDCs, but by the same token I'm not prepared to accept that Hamilton has somehow transcended the pure, objective, mechanical inadequacies of his Mercedes and has defied these characteristics to win. He is, as I said, arguably the best driver in easily the best all-round car for some time now.


paulguitar

3,810 posts

60 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
We’re in agreement pretty much all around, when I said Hamilton is driving ‘out of his skin’ I am referring to what he is doing at the moment, with the car advantage clearly not there.

I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.

Durzel

7,929 posts

115 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
Fair enough, I agree fully with that.

HustleRussell

17,083 posts

107 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
Durzel said:
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy
Nobody has said that.

sandman77

1,586 posts

85 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
We’re in agreement pretty much all around, when I said Hamilton is driving ‘out of his skin’ I am referring to what he is doing at the moment, with the car advantage clearly not there.

I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.
But if Hamilton wasn’t there Bottas would have won the race and there was nothing about his race that would make anyone think that he was driving out of his skin. Don’t get me wrong, Hamilton is doing a stellar job this year but the Russian Grand Prix wasn’t one of his best (despite winning).

Durzel

7,929 posts

115 months

Wednesday 2nd October
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Durzel said:
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy
Nobody has said that.
Not explicitly though, but there has been strong suggestions in various threads that the Ferrari has been the better car most of the time when that plainly is not true. I can only surmise that the justification for alluding to that is because it’s uncomfortable to imagine Hamilton is winning because of the car (which also isn’t strictly true, but is a major factor)