Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...
Discussion
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The camera on Senna's car would be running and recording for the whole race up until the accident. As the accident was on the right hand side of the car the camera would have been safe from being destroyed as it was on the left side of the car.
What was the camera recording to, or on to? What is the basis of the theory that it was a steering column failure.
I apologise - I am not on the wind up I promise and haven't seen the evidence and these are genuine questions not points of criticism.
I remember seeing some footage where it is alleged that the wheel moves longitudinally in the moments before the crash - I say alleged as it wasn't terribly clear and has been stated earlier there is the potential for alternative explanations (not commenting on the validity of those for the moment)
Is that what we are talking about - as if not read no further!
But if it is - my questions are:
1): if the column was clamped at the dash - did that clamp also fail to cause this movement? If have thought because of the forces and bouncing that goes on in any racing car, the clamp would need to be pretty robust and in effect would keep the wheel static even if the column sheered and prevent movement in any direction?
Would it not? Unless of course this failed as well....but it would surely need the mother and father of all inputs.
2); what are we saying broke the steering column in the event it wasn't the impact? I'm Not sure this question has been given very significant scrutiny so far in the thread (I apologise if I have missed it and will pipe down)
I presume the column was metal as I'm sure people have talked about welding a thinner piece in - and carbon would require and entirely new fabrication (I think?)
Well even a thinner bit of metal, unless it was tooth pick thin, would require a hell of a jar to break it - even at the welds. I mean - don't we have to assume the welding was competent - because well, it's the steering column of a car. A car made by a high tech engineering company - it wouldn't have been the work ex lad having a bash. One also has to assume, surely, that Ayrton Senna would have at least had a look at it and been happy enough to get in the car - I mean James Hintbhe wasn't - he was obsessively conscientious I always understood
So is it reasonable to assume that the column was modified tonthe satisfaction of driver, mechanic and engineer rather than slapped together.
So my question is - what sort of thing could happen on the straight and turn in that would provide sufficient force to break a piece of metal and welds - which are deemed perfectly robust normally - ok it was thin but it wasn't made of chewing gum either.
It may be that there are answers to both of those points. But they are the two questions that spring to my mind.
I apologise - I am not on the wind up I promise and haven't seen the evidence and these are genuine questions not points of criticism.
I remember seeing some footage where it is alleged that the wheel moves longitudinally in the moments before the crash - I say alleged as it wasn't terribly clear and has been stated earlier there is the potential for alternative explanations (not commenting on the validity of those for the moment)
Is that what we are talking about - as if not read no further!
But if it is - my questions are:
1): if the column was clamped at the dash - did that clamp also fail to cause this movement? If have thought because of the forces and bouncing that goes on in any racing car, the clamp would need to be pretty robust and in effect would keep the wheel static even if the column sheered and prevent movement in any direction?
Would it not? Unless of course this failed as well....but it would surely need the mother and father of all inputs.
2); what are we saying broke the steering column in the event it wasn't the impact? I'm Not sure this question has been given very significant scrutiny so far in the thread (I apologise if I have missed it and will pipe down)
I presume the column was metal as I'm sure people have talked about welding a thinner piece in - and carbon would require and entirely new fabrication (I think?)
Well even a thinner bit of metal, unless it was tooth pick thin, would require a hell of a jar to break it - even at the welds. I mean - don't we have to assume the welding was competent - because well, it's the steering column of a car. A car made by a high tech engineering company - it wouldn't have been the work ex lad having a bash. One also has to assume, surely, that Ayrton Senna would have at least had a look at it and been happy enough to get in the car - I mean James Hintbhe wasn't - he was obsessively conscientious I always understood
So is it reasonable to assume that the column was modified tonthe satisfaction of driver, mechanic and engineer rather than slapped together.
So my question is - what sort of thing could happen on the straight and turn in that would provide sufficient force to break a piece of metal and welds - which are deemed perfectly robust normally - ok it was thin but it wasn't made of chewing gum either.
It may be that there are answers to both of those points. But they are the two questions that spring to my mind.
The Surveyor said:
The Italian courts would not have cut the film on the grounds of 'good taste' had it been available, and why does the fact it's not available 'cause the doubt in peoples mind'.
Are you saying that the FIA, the BBC, Eurosport, all colluded with Williams to hide this film from Senna's family and the Italian Courts because that is some accusation, and one hell of a conspiracy theory?
I don't think you understood what I was saying.Are you saying that the FIA, the BBC, Eurosport, all colluded with Williams to hide this film from Senna's family and the Italian Courts because that is some accusation, and one hell of a conspiracy theory?
If you read it again you will see that I mentioned the BBC and Eurosport had the same Worldwide feed for the race which had a shot of Senna and Schumacher heading down towards Tamburello before going on board with Schumacher which then shows Senna heading towards the wall.
The last on board footage LIVE of Senna was while he was following the safety car.
The footage of Senna's in car for a lap and a half was shown at a later date and not live by any of the networks.
So if this footage was not used live but was submitted at a later day why then does the clip stop at the most important part?
This obviously proves that the camera was recording the race from Senna's car.
Watch the clip I posted to see what the live BBC and Eurosport footage showed.
At no point did I state the BBC, Eurosport or the Italian Court tampered with this on board footage but whoever retrieved the recordings surely has to be questioned.
Funny enough the black box from Senna's car was also removed under the watch of Charlie Whiting by Williams mechanics just after the accident and was only given back until Month later.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 11th January 19:59
heebeegeetee said:
What was the camera recording to, or on to?
This is the live Worldwide feed which the BBC and Eurosport showedhttp://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqgqy9_formula-1-...
This is the footage which was released at a later date. This is a slightly shorter clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvw1BpNxiKY
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 11th January 20:17
Eric Mc said:
On the second lap he was travelling faster and took a wider line - which was bumpier.
Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.
All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.
Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
Damon needs to see a Doctor or you have made this up.Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.
All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.
Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
Hill's line is the same as Senna's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BoQzAVd8A
Vocal Minority said:
So is it reasonable to assume that the column was modified tonthe satisfaction of driver, mechanic and engineer rather than slapped together.
Unfortunately, whilst it is logical to assume that a top F1 team would have the skill to carry out such a job competently the modification to the steering column was actually very poor, possibly because the team was under pressure from the disappointing results in the first 2 races and rushed the job.Adrian Newey said:
There’s no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure.
The testimony of other experts and the conclusion of the court agreed that the steering column modification was poor but disagreed with Newey's claim that the column had not failed before the crash.ELUSIVEJIM said:
Hill's car looked a complete dog going around the tamburello curve.
Much worse than Senna's car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE
Thing is, though, if Senna's car had got away from him in the way suggested wouldn't you have expected him to have been applying some opposite (right) lock to turn into the slide? When you look at the on-board footage from his car in the clip above (from about 54 seconds in) I don't see any evidence of him doing that nor do I see any evidence of the left front wheel turning to the right following the application of right lock - just looks like the car goes straight on to me. Much worse than Senna's car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE
I do appreciate the whole discussion is hypothetical because, as has been said already, sadly the one person who could have told us for sure what happened is no longer with us. However, I remember watching the accident live on TV and thinking something on the car must have failed and, notwithstanding the huge respect I have for Damon Hill, I'm still not 100% convinced something didn't.....
Edited by JNW1 on Wednesday 11th January 22:10
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Damon needs to see a Doctor or you have made this up.
Hill's line is the same as Senna's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BoQzAVd8A
It's a quote from his book - so don't accuse me of fabrication. That's a pretty low tactic to be honest.Hill's line is the same as Senna's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BoQzAVd8A
Eric Mc said:
It's a quote from his book - so don't accuse me of fabrication. That's a pretty low tactic to be honest.
Strange story for Hill to state when clearly his line was the same. Perhaps he will sell more books.However apologies to you
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 11th January 23:15
ELUSIVEJIM said:
........
So if this footage was not used live but was submitted at a later day why then does the clip stop at the most important part?
This obviously proves that the camera was recording the race from Senna's car.
Watch the clip I posted to see what the live BBC and Eurosport footage showed.
At no point did I state the BBC, Eurosport or the Italian Court tampered with this on board footage but whoever retrieved the recordings surely has to be questioned.
Funny enough the black box from Senna's car was also removed under the watch of Charlie Whiting by Williams mechanics just after the accident and was only given back until Month later.
Nobody knows why the footage stops just before the crash, but it does. The cameras were providing live streaming, there won't be any recording in the camera to retrieve from the car so anything fed from the camera would have been fed to the same network as all the other cameras. So if you are suggesting that whoever had access to those camera feeds both switched it off during the accident, and / or disposed of it before it could be retrieved. Who would that be? Who would have access to that who would have any reason to conceal a film of an accident before anybody knew that Senna was injured never mind dead.So if this footage was not used live but was submitted at a later day why then does the clip stop at the most important part?
This obviously proves that the camera was recording the race from Senna's car.
Watch the clip I posted to see what the live BBC and Eurosport footage showed.
At no point did I state the BBC, Eurosport or the Italian Court tampered with this on board footage but whoever retrieved the recordings surely has to be questioned.
Funny enough the black box from Senna's car was also removed under the watch of Charlie Whiting by Williams mechanics just after the accident and was only given back until Month later.
And you also now imply that the team tampered with car black box with the knowledge of Charlie Whiting, wow, just wow.
The camera in the car was not recording the pictures but sending the pictures via a radio link to the on site TV scanner. Hence you only see those in car shots on the live TV feed if the director cuts to it. I think that the in car camera feed from each car was sent via a radio link via a helicopter, thats why you sometimes had picture break up when the link was lost. It may well be the case that each team recorded there own in car camera independently from the TV feed, this would explain how the in car for a whole lap from Senna's car came to light.
The Surveyor said:
And you also now imply that the team tampered with car black box with the knowledge of Charlie Whiting, wow, just wow.
Of all the things in this thread this is actually the least shocking.It's well known that for whatever reason, Williams engineers were allowed to remove the black box which was against the law. Charlie Whiting agreed to it.
It's also well known that they returned it to the authorities a month later and it was returned in an irretrievably damaged state.
"Whiting was asked to explain why he had contravened his own regulations by giving the black box, taken from Senna's car, to the Williams team before handing it over to officials.
Whiting claimed he had done so because of the overriding need to make sure the other Williams car might not suffer the same strange loss of control which had apparently affected Senna's.
He confirmed the statement made yesterday by Bernard Duffort, the Renault electronics expert, and told the court he had authorised the Williams representatives to remove the black box immediately after the accident, but it had been damaged in the crash and all the efforts made at the circuit to read the data were in vain.
However, Marco Spiga, an electronics expert, disputed Whiting's claim and said he felt it could be used.
Whiting's statement was in direct contradiction to a testimony given yesterday by Fabrizio Nosco who said that "apart from a few scratches, both black boxes were intact when he removed them from Senna's car."
A further investigation of the data recorder was called for, and all the parties involved were summoned to an examination of the unit at the Engineering Department of Bologna University on March 24"
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/newsfle5.html
"Williams pair took black box
1997 March 26
A British newspaper has interviewed Fabrizio Nosco, the man who removed the two data recorders from Senna's car.
Nosco testified in court last week that the boxes were scratched but intact when he removed them from Senna's Williams.
On Sunday the News of the World reported:
Regional technical commissioner Fabrizio Nosco, 30, who has worked for 10 years at the Imola track, revealed:
"The wreckage of Senna's car was brought into the Parc Ferme and put in the garage. Then, ten minutes later, two Williams mechanics came and asked to see the car. We politely told them that this was impossible because of FIA rules."
But according to Nosco, the FIA's technical delegate in Imola, Charlie Whiting, arrived soon after with two more Williams mechanics and ordered him to remove the boxes.
Nosco added:
"Whiting told me to open up the garage and that he had permission from John Corsmit, the FIA security chief that day. Whiting told me to remove the black boxes."
"The Renault engine box was situated behind the cockpit. I removed it with a pair of large pliers. The Williams chassis box was behind the radiator near the back wheel on the right wing of the car."
"I have seen thousands of these devices and removed them for checks. The two boxes were intact, even though they had some scratches. The Williams device looked to have survived the crash."
The boxes were not seen by Italian investigators for another month. Engineer Marco Spiga told the court: "The Williams box was totally unreadable when we got it back."
Absolutely not worth such a shocked response from yourself when it's well known it happened and that it shouldn't have.
In any case, the slow-motion video with captions talking about the yellow button almost confirms to me the opposite of what the author of the video is trying to convey. In the video it's alleged that at the third patch of differently coloured tarmac, the column breaks and it's confirmed in the movement of the button but to me it looks like Ayrton has instinctively steered into a slide at that point.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Thursday 12th January 07:41
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Thursday 12th January 07:43
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Eric Mc said:
On the second lap he was travelling faster and took a wider line - which was bumpier.
Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.
All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.
Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
Damon needs to see a Doctor or you have made this up.Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.
All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.
Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
Hill's line is the same as Senna's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8BoQzAVd8A
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Eric Mc said:
It's a quote from his book - so don't accuse me of fabrication. That's a pretty low tactic to be honest.
Strange story for Hill to state when clearly his line was the same. Perhaps he will sell more books.However apologies to you
Eric Mc said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
However apologies to you
Apology accepted. But you now accuse Hill of lying. I wonder if he reads Pistonheads?Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 11th January 23:15
F1GTRUeno said:
Of all the things in this thread this is actually the least shocking.
It's well known that for whatever reason, Williams engineers were allowed to remove the black box which was against the law. Charlie Whiting agreed to it.
It's also well known that they returned it to the authorities a month later and it was returned in an irretrievably damaged state.
"Whiting was asked to explain why he had contravened his own regulations by giving the black box, taken from Senna's car, to the Williams team before handing it over to officials.
Whiting claimed he had done so because of the overriding need to make sure the other Williams car might not suffer the same strange loss of control which had apparently affected Senna's.
He confirmed the statement made yesterday by Bernard Duffort, the Renault electronics expert, and told the court he had authorised the Williams representatives to remove the black box immediately after the accident, but it had been damaged in the crash and all the efforts made at the circuit to read the data were in vain.
However, Marco Spiga, an electronics expert, disputed Whiting's claim and said he felt it could be used.
Whiting's statement was in direct contradiction to a testimony given yesterday by Fabrizio Nosco who said that "apart from a few scratches, both black boxes were intact when he removed them from Senna's car."
A further investigation of the data recorder was called for, and all the parties involved were summoned to an examination of the unit at the Engineering Department of Bologna University on March 24"
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/newsfle5.html
"Williams pair took black box
1997 March 26
A British newspaper has interviewed Fabrizio Nosco, the man who removed the two data recorders from Senna's car.
Nosco testified in court last week that the boxes were scratched but intact when he removed them from Senna's Williams.
On Sunday the News of the World reported:
Regional technical commissioner Fabrizio Nosco, 30, who has worked for 10 years at the Imola track, revealed:
"The wreckage of Senna's car was brought into the Parc Ferme and put in the garage. Then, ten minutes later, two Williams mechanics came and asked to see the car. We politely told them that this was impossible because of FIA rules."
But according to Nosco, the FIA's technical delegate in Imola, Charlie Whiting, arrived soon after with two more Williams mechanics and ordered him to remove the boxes.
Nosco added:
"Whiting told me to open up the garage and that he had permission from John Corsmit, the FIA security chief that day. Whiting told me to remove the black boxes."
"The Renault engine box was situated behind the cockpit. I removed it with a pair of large pliers. The Williams chassis box was behind the radiator near the back wheel on the right wing of the car."
"I have seen thousands of these devices and removed them for checks. The two boxes were intact, even though they had some scratches. The Williams device looked to have survived the crash."
The boxes were not seen by Italian investigators for another month. Engineer Marco Spiga told the court: "The Williams box was totally unreadable when we got it back."
Absolutely not worth such a shocked response from yourself when it's well known it happened and that it shouldn't have.
In any case, the slow-motion video with captions talking about the yellow button almost confirms to me the opposite of what the author of the video is trying to convey. In the video it's alleged that at the third patch of differently coloured tarmac, the column breaks and it's confirmed in the movement of the button but to me it looks like Ayrton has instinctively steered into a slide at that point.
Thank you for explain this and providing the evidence.It's well known that for whatever reason, Williams engineers were allowed to remove the black box which was against the law. Charlie Whiting agreed to it.
It's also well known that they returned it to the authorities a month later and it was returned in an irretrievably damaged state.
"Whiting was asked to explain why he had contravened his own regulations by giving the black box, taken from Senna's car, to the Williams team before handing it over to officials.
Whiting claimed he had done so because of the overriding need to make sure the other Williams car might not suffer the same strange loss of control which had apparently affected Senna's.
He confirmed the statement made yesterday by Bernard Duffort, the Renault electronics expert, and told the court he had authorised the Williams representatives to remove the black box immediately after the accident, but it had been damaged in the crash and all the efforts made at the circuit to read the data were in vain.
However, Marco Spiga, an electronics expert, disputed Whiting's claim and said he felt it could be used.
Whiting's statement was in direct contradiction to a testimony given yesterday by Fabrizio Nosco who said that "apart from a few scratches, both black boxes were intact when he removed them from Senna's car."
A further investigation of the data recorder was called for, and all the parties involved were summoned to an examination of the unit at the Engineering Department of Bologna University on March 24"
http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/newsfle5.html
"Williams pair took black box
1997 March 26
A British newspaper has interviewed Fabrizio Nosco, the man who removed the two data recorders from Senna's car.
Nosco testified in court last week that the boxes were scratched but intact when he removed them from Senna's Williams.
On Sunday the News of the World reported:
Regional technical commissioner Fabrizio Nosco, 30, who has worked for 10 years at the Imola track, revealed:
"The wreckage of Senna's car was brought into the Parc Ferme and put in the garage. Then, ten minutes later, two Williams mechanics came and asked to see the car. We politely told them that this was impossible because of FIA rules."
But according to Nosco, the FIA's technical delegate in Imola, Charlie Whiting, arrived soon after with two more Williams mechanics and ordered him to remove the boxes.
Nosco added:
"Whiting told me to open up the garage and that he had permission from John Corsmit, the FIA security chief that day. Whiting told me to remove the black boxes."
"The Renault engine box was situated behind the cockpit. I removed it with a pair of large pliers. The Williams chassis box was behind the radiator near the back wheel on the right wing of the car."
"I have seen thousands of these devices and removed them for checks. The two boxes were intact, even though they had some scratches. The Williams device looked to have survived the crash."
The boxes were not seen by Italian investigators for another month. Engineer Marco Spiga told the court: "The Williams box was totally unreadable when we got it back."
Absolutely not worth such a shocked response from yourself when it's well known it happened and that it shouldn't have.
In any case, the slow-motion video with captions talking about the yellow button almost confirms to me the opposite of what the author of the video is trying to convey. In the video it's alleged that at the third patch of differently coloured tarmac, the column breaks and it's confirmed in the movement of the button but to me it looks like Ayrton has instinctively steered into a slide at that point.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Thursday 12th January 07:41
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Thursday 12th January 07:43
Saved me a good search
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