Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...
Discussion
F1GTRUeno said:
Absolutely not worth such a shocked response from yourself when it's well known it happened and that it shouldn't have.
Thanks for that detailed reply, some elements there that I'd not seen before. I would still argue that there is as much the potential for this to be just alarmist investigative journalism as opposed to a simple explanation of fact. The desire to protect the other Williams drivers from a similar fate is just as valid as the suggestion that the data would be incriminating IMHO.
Also, any usable data could well have been lost in the accident from the black-boxes despite there being only light scratches on them, that is possible. Surly the Italian electronics expert would be able to determine with 100% certainty whether the data was corrupted by the team in some elaborate cover-up after the accident, or had been damaged by the accident. I'm sure as an Electronics Expert, he didn't just look at the box and declare it usable, he would have tested it before making such a statement.
F1GTRUeno said:
Of all the things in this thread this is actually the least shocking.
It's well known that for whatever reason, Williams engineers were allowed to remove the black box which was against the law. Charlie Whiting agreed to it.
It's also well known that they returned it to the authorities a month later and it was returned in an irretrievably damaged state
Aside from a news report where is your evidence that it wasn't damaged in the crash? What I have been told by someone directly involved in the trial contradicts what you have claimed. The data logger was in the RH sidepod, I.e. The one that took a lot of impact. This supposedly forced the dzus fastener that held the data logger panel in place into the data logger. Seems pretty self explanatory to me. Also it's pretty obvious why Williams would take it to try and recover any data if possibleIt's well known that for whatever reason, Williams engineers were allowed to remove the black box which was against the law. Charlie Whiting agreed to it.
It's also well known that they returned it to the authorities a month later and it was returned in an irretrievably damaged state
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Thank you for explain this and providing the evidence.
Saved me a good search
It's not really conclusive evidence though, it's just further noise around the story. The extracts helpfully explain what happened to the black boxes but doesn't say that the data was tampered with by Williams, just that they had an opportunity to do so.Saved me a good search
The bit that's missing is the Italian courts appointed Electronics Experts actual opinion on the black box data, had the data been wiped by Williams to conceal evidence, or did he agree with them that the data had been lost in the accident?
The Surveyor said:
It's not really conclusive evidence though, it's just further noise around the story. The extracts helpfully explain what happened to the black boxes but doesn't say that the data was tampered with by Williams, just that they had an opportunity to do so.
The bit that's missing is the Italian courts appointed Electronics Experts actual opinion on the black box data, had the data been wiped by Williams to conceal evidence, or did he agree with them that the data had been lost in the accident?
Black boxes are designed to withstand horrendous accidents yet an accident "which Senna would have lived had luck been on his side" and the black boxes are destroyed is again very hard to accept.The bit that's missing is the Italian courts appointed Electronics Experts actual opinion on the black box data, had the data been wiped by Williams to conceal evidence, or did he agree with them that the data had been lost in the accident?
The location of the black boxes was behind the cockpit.
The black box would be the same are one in a plane which can be located and used after being found in terrible situations.
Williams employees removed the black boxes and they were returned after a whole Month. There is no way someone at Williams should have been allowed to be anywhere near the car after a serious accident especially removing evidence.
If we crash on the road and someone dies everything is left as it is until investigations are carried out. Yes the car had to be removed from the track due to the race wanting to be restarted but that is all.
Senna wasn't dead when they removed the black boxes, so at that point it wasn't under investigation by the Police. Any rules broken would have been Park Ferme rules of the FIA, not Police rules.
Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The black box would be the same are one in a plane which can be located and used after being found in terrible situations.
Rubbish. The "black box" in this case is a simple ECU recording telemetry. The phrase "black box" is misleading, in this case it is used simply because the plastic housing of the box is black. In those days it would be a fairly fragile unit, certainly not ruggedised or anything like an aircraft data recorder. In an accident like that it could easily have been covered in fluids from the engine, any amount of flying debris could have pierced it or even an electrical event caused the data to become corrupt (this was early 90s technology after all, solid state memory was notoriously prone to failure).
There are an abundance of tinfoil hats on this thread.
jsf said:
Senna wasn't dead when they removed the black boxes, so at that point it wasn't under investigation by the Police. Any rules broken would have been Park Ferme rules of the FIA, not Police rules.
Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Everyone who was at the crash site knew fine Senna was already dead. Yes his heart was still beating but any chance of recovery was never possible.Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Professor Sid Watkins stated himself that he knew as soon as he saw Senna he was already gone.
Senna was kept alive until after the race but everyone knew well before then that he was gone.
GreigM said:
Rubbish. The "black box" in this case is a simple ECU recording telemetry. The phrase "black box" is misleading, in this case it is used simply because the plastic housing of the box is black. In those days it would be a fairly fragile unit, certainly not ruggedised or anything like an aircraft data recorder.
In an accident like that it could easily have been covered in fluids from the engine, any amount of flying debris could have pierced it or even an electrical event caused the data to become corrupt (this was early 90s technology after all, solid state memory was notoriously prone to failure).
There are an abundance of tinfoil hats on this thread.
Then I am wrong in the aspect of a F1 black box from 1994.In an accident like that it could easily have been covered in fluids from the engine, any amount of flying debris could have pierced it or even an electrical event caused the data to become corrupt (this was early 90s technology after all, solid state memory was notoriously prone to failure).
There are an abundance of tinfoil hats on this thread.
The modern systems were being tested after Imola and were to be standard in cars from 1997.
Did this actually happen?
It was to be the same system as planes hence why I thought it was always the case.
ACCIDENT data recorders, designed to yield information about what happens to a racing car during and immediately before an accident, will be fitted to all Formula One cars from the first race of the new world championship season in Melbourne on March 9th.
In a week when the sport has been dominated by the anticipation of Frank Williams's trial for manslaughter over the death of Ayrton Senna, which opens tomorrow, the adoption of these recorders is regarded as a crucial first step in providing car makers and the sport's governing body (FIA) with an accurate understanding of what really happens in motor racing accidents.
"The implications for safety are very encouraging," said Max Mosley, the FIA president. However, whether these accident recorders might have been able to shed anymore light on why Senna's Williams-Renault crashed at 190 m.p.h. during the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix at Imola is another matter altogether.
"There would certainly have been some additional data gathered," said Harvey Postlethwaite, technical director of the Tyrrell Formula One team, "but that does not necessarily mean you would be able to tell what caused the accident. Gathering the data is one thing, but interpreting it can be something of a minefield.
"But it is a laudable first step towards gathering accident data from across the whole spectrum of motor sport. But like any first step, there are obviously going to be some teething troubles."
The accident data recorders will be mounted beneath the fuel tanks of the grand prix cars, just behind the driver's seat. They will receive data from external sensors enabling them to monitor the speed at which the wheels are rotating how the driver is operating the throttle and the angle at which he is holding the steering wheel at the moment a car goes out of control.
In a week when the sport has been dominated by the anticipation of Frank Williams's trial for manslaughter over the death of Ayrton Senna, which opens tomorrow, the adoption of these recorders is regarded as a crucial first step in providing car makers and the sport's governing body (FIA) with an accurate understanding of what really happens in motor racing accidents.
"The implications for safety are very encouraging," said Max Mosley, the FIA president. However, whether these accident recorders might have been able to shed anymore light on why Senna's Williams-Renault crashed at 190 m.p.h. during the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix at Imola is another matter altogether.
"There would certainly have been some additional data gathered," said Harvey Postlethwaite, technical director of the Tyrrell Formula One team, "but that does not necessarily mean you would be able to tell what caused the accident. Gathering the data is one thing, but interpreting it can be something of a minefield.
"But it is a laudable first step towards gathering accident data from across the whole spectrum of motor sport. But like any first step, there are obviously going to be some teething troubles."
The accident data recorders will be mounted beneath the fuel tanks of the grand prix cars, just behind the driver's seat. They will receive data from external sensors enabling them to monitor the speed at which the wheels are rotating how the driver is operating the throttle and the angle at which he is holding the steering wheel at the moment a car goes out of control.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
jsf said:
Senna wasn't dead when they removed the black boxes, so at that point it wasn't under investigation by the Police. Any rules broken would have been Park Ferme rules of the FIA, not Police rules.
Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Everyone who was at the crash site knew fine Senna was already dead. Yes his heart was still beating but any chance of recovery was never possible.Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Professor Sid Watkins stated himself that he knew as soon as he saw Senna he was already gone.
Senna was kept alive until after the race but everyone knew well before then that he was gone.
I must admit, though, I've always wondered whether the drivers would have agreed to take the restart if they'd known Senna wasn't going to survive; I know people like Martin Brundle are angry to this day that the race went ahead...
JNW1 said:
I'm sure Sid Watkins knew the score as soon as he arrived at the scene and having read Damon Hill's book I think the Williams team were in little doubt as to what the outcome was likely to be prior to the restart. However, I'm not convinced the seriousness of his condition was widely known throughout the paddock at that stage and the fact is he was still alive when he was taken from the circuit and was only pronounced dead at the hospital in Bologna several hours later. Therefore, I think jsf's point is correct; Italian law wasn't broken by removing the black box from the car, any breach of regulations can only have related to the FIA's Park Ferme rules.
I must admit, though, I've always wondered whether the drivers would have agreed to take the restart if they'd known Senna wasn't going to survive; I know people like Martin Brundle are angry to this day that the race went ahead...
Yes Brundle was very upset and annoyed. The drivers were told very little until after the race.I must admit, though, I've always wondered whether the drivers would have agreed to take the restart if they'd known Senna wasn't going to survive; I know people like Martin Brundle are angry to this day that the race went ahead...
I am sure Bernie and other officials would have been updated by Professor Sid Watkins and knew fine Senna was going to die.
The fact a cancelled race would cause a lot of issues must have been spoken about.
vonuber said:
But not so angry to want to cancel the weekend before the race started after ratzenburghers crash?
Thankfully we all know the reason to ratzenberger's accident.I think I was still in shock most of the weekend after viewing the accident and seeing him being worked on.
Eurosport in 1994 were prepared to show you everything. Unfortunately being human you don't want to see it but still watch.
Terrible weekend from start to finish.
JNW1 said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
jsf said:
Senna wasn't dead when they removed the black boxes, so at that point it wasn't under investigation by the Police. Any rules broken would have been Park Ferme rules of the FIA, not Police rules.
Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Everyone who was at the crash site knew fine Senna was already dead. Yes his heart was still beating but any chance of recovery was never possible.Based on that the team taking the black boxes so they can check the data and see if Damon should be withdrawn from the restart seems reasonable responsible behaviour.
Professor Sid Watkins stated himself that he knew as soon as he saw Senna he was already gone.
Senna was kept alive until after the race but everyone knew well before then that he was gone.
I must admit, though, I've always wondered whether the drivers would have agreed to take the restart if they'd known Senna wasn't going to survive; I know people like Martin Brundle are angry to this day that the race went ahead...
It was more a perfect-storm of small errors and circumstance, rather than an elaborate cover-up of negligence.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Everyone who was at the crash site knew fine Senna was already dead. Yes his heart was still beating but any chance of recovery was never possible.
Professor Sid Watkins stated himself that he knew as soon as he saw Senna he was already gone.
Senna was kept alive until after the race but everyone knew well before then that he was gone.
Who is, or was, "everyone"?Professor Sid Watkins stated himself that he knew as soon as he saw Senna he was already gone.
Senna was kept alive until after the race but everyone knew well before then that he was gone.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Yes Brundle was very upset and annoyed. The drivers were told very little until after the race.
I am sure Bernie and other officials would have been updated by Professor Sid Watkins and knew fine Senna was going to die.
The fact a cancelled race would cause a lot of issues must have been spoken about.
The race is only 90 minutes long, I doubt that's long enough to get the full story and then ensure all of his immediate friends and family (many on the other side of the world) have been informed and had time to take the news in.I am sure Bernie and other officials would have been updated by Professor Sid Watkins and knew fine Senna was going to die.
The fact a cancelled race would cause a lot of issues must have been spoken about.
heebeegeetee said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Yes Brundle was very upset and annoyed. The drivers were told very little until after the race.
I am sure Bernie and other officials would have been updated by Professor Sid Watkins and knew fine Senna was going to die.
The fact a cancelled race would cause a lot of issues must have been spoken about.
The race is only 90 minutes long, I doubt that's long enough to get the full story and then ensure all of his immediate friends and family (many on the other side of the world) have been informed and had time to take the news in.I am sure Bernie and other officials would have been updated by Professor Sid Watkins and knew fine Senna was going to die.
The fact a cancelled race would cause a lot of issues must have been spoken about.
I can also see the argument that the race should have been cancelled following Ratzenberger's death the day before and some of the drivers - not least Senna - weren't at all keen to race on the Sunday; again, though, I suspect they were just told to get on with it.
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