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Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

Author
Discussion

Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Mark A S said:
Eric, I understand what your saying re ill handling car etc etc, this still does not explain why his car just went strait on without any deviation, there was no steering, either Senna passed out or the column broke.

I have no issue agreeing to disagree.
Take it up with Damon Hill. I think he knows best about what the FW16 and the circuit was like on that day.

GreigM

5,624 posts

170 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
I've had a steering column detach on track. The major movement is to the left/right rather than front/back. I think if the column had broken you would see more substantial sudden movement of the wheel "spinning" round as Senna is trying to turn, rather than the front to back movement the OP is looking for.

If you look at the earlier footage as he is bouncing up and down the track the yellow dot moves about substantially - a combination of flex in the chassis, steering column and angle of the camera changing through shock in its mount. I see nothing in that video which really suggests the steering column broke.

Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
CraigyMc said:
Mark A S said:
Eric, I understand what your saying re ill handling car etc etc, this still does not explain why his car just went strait on without any deviation, there was no steering, either Senna passed out or the column broke.

I have no issue agreeing to disagree.
If the car was skidding on its floor (this was prior to the plank being mandatory) due to low tyre pressures and consequently low ride height, it wouldn't matter which way the front wheels were pointing, as they'd not be taking the weight of the car. The floor would be.

Equally, if there was a tyre issue (front or back), for example a puncture, then again the front wheels may simply have been understeering while still pointing in the correct direction to make the corner.

We'll never know what happened.
It was not just bottoming that was the issue. It was the way downforce was coming and going - often many times a second - as the gap under the car changed due to inconsistent ride height. This car had evolved out of a car where its secret weapon was the ability to maintain a constant ride height due to active suspension. In its initial de-activated set up, the suspension was doing a very poor job and took Williams well into 1994 to sort it out.

angrymoby

492 posts

99 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Quick Questions:

1. In the history of F1, how many steering columns have broken pre-accident?
2. How many times in Senna's career, did he manage to crash all by his lonesome?


Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
Quick Questions:

1. In the history of F1, how many steering columns have broken pre-accident?
2. How many times in Senna's career, did he manage to crash all by his lonesome?
I can't think of a single incident regarding 1.

As far as 2 is concerned, I can think of a few accidents caused by Senna with nobody else involved only himself - Monaco in 1988 and those below -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzP6nFYdXkE

And another, also Mexico this time in 1992

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lelNF_lkkBs

Oh - and another - Imola 1993 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7i5hx786P4
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heebeegeetee

25,403 posts

169 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
We can listen to Damon Hill talking directly about this accident here http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/damon...

If you take it from 7' he talks about Prost and Senna and then discusses the accident directly.

The video in the op has been taken down but the view from Schumacher's cockpit is here, and it confirms what IIRC, that there was an element of Senna's car turning right, as if in a tank slapper.

https://youtu.be/8qYXVfY_9IE?t=41s

ELUSIVEJIM

2,160 posts

72 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Hill's car looked a complete dog going around the tamburello curve.

Much worse than Senna's car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE

Quote

After 13 years of on-off trials, the Italian Supreme Court eventually ruled that the accident was caused by steering column failure, for which Head was found responsible. He was not arrested as the case had passed the statute of limitations.

Williams stated that it was driver error due to the car slightly oversteering prior to hitting he wall.

Whatever anyone thinks a Court stated it was a steering column failure and this should be respected as they are given a lot more information than us F1 fan's.



Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 9th January 12:42


Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 9th January 12:45

Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
You are forgetting it is an Italian court.

CraigyMc

10,340 posts

157 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
CraigyMc said:
Mark A S said:
Eric, I understand what your saying re ill handling car etc etc, this still does not explain why his car just went strait on without any deviation, there was no steering, either Senna passed out or the column broke.

I have no issue agreeing to disagree.
If the car was skidding on its floor (this was prior to the plank being mandatory) due to low tyre pressures and consequently low ride height, it wouldn't matter which way the front wheels were pointing, as they'd not be taking the weight of the car. The floor would be.

Equally, if there was a tyre issue (front or back), for example a puncture, then again the front wheels may simply have been understeering while still pointing in the correct direction to make the corner.

We'll never know what happened.
It was not just bottoming that was the issue. It was the way downforce was coming and going - often many times a second - as the gap under the car changed due to inconsistent ride height. This car had evolved out of a car where its secret weapon was the ability to maintain a constant ride height due to active suspension. In its initial de-activated set up, the suspension was doing a very poor job and took Williams well into 1994 to sort it out.
Yes, I agree. That's called hysteresis, by the way.
The reason people mention the tyre pressures is that they'd just got racing again after a long time behind the safety car, so the tyres were cold (and consequently the pressures were below normal, hence slightly lower ride height, and a "squishier" tyre)

CraigyMc

10,340 posts

157 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
You are forgetting it is an Italian court.
Quite.

There's no general drive to find the truth no matter if it's "combination of unforseen circumstances" in Italian courts like that.

Essentially, it's important to remember that this isn't like a coroner's inquest in the UK.
The Italian courts are set up to find someone to blame. It's how their court system works, radically different from ours.

jsf

7,807 posts

157 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
stemll said:
jsf said:
They wouldn't have done that if there was any question that the steering column was marginal in design strength.
Surely the force required between the steering wheel and the rack is the same whether it's applied by the driver or hydraulics?
No. Power assistance takes the torque load away from the steering wheel, steering column and depending on design pinion assembly too. You can drive with your fingertips with power steering, you cant do that without it on a car with high downforce and positive castor.

Derek Smith

28,575 posts

169 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Hill's car looked a complete dog going around the tamburello curve.

Much worse than Senna's car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE

Quote

After 13 years of on-off trials, the Italian Supreme Court eventually ruled that the accident was caused by steering column failure, for which Head was found responsible. He was not arrested as the case had passed the statute of limitations.

Williams stated that it was driver error due to the car slightly oversteering prior to hitting he wall.

Whatever anyone thinks a Court stated it was a steering column failure and this should be respected as they are given a lot more information than us F1 fan's.



Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 9th January 12:42


Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 9th January 12:45
Whatever the courts think, one has to respect the views of engineers and those without an apparent need to come to a definitive conclusions.

The Italian system is more like an enquiry. However, they are under pressure to come up with a reason for the death. That is their function.

One can wonder which court decision should be respected? There was more than one.


Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Ask the family of Meredith Kercher about what they think of the Italian court system.

MitchT

11,331 posts

130 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Derek Smith said:
Eric Mc said:
I wouldn't call it the worst weekend. Have you ever watched the film of the Dundrod TT in 1955?

Or the 1955 Le Mans 24.
Not F1. That's what was meant by the sport.
Fair enough. I was always a "Motorsport" fan as opposed to purely an F1 fan - especially in the era when drivers drove in multiple categories.
I was going to mention the 1973 Indianapolis 500 as a catalogue of disasters too.

Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
There have been a handfull of races over the years where everything that could go wrong went wrong.

hora

24,299 posts

132 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Ask the family of Meredith Kercher about what they think of the Italian court system.
Not sure which way you're leaning with this as basically she got off.

Mr_Thyroid

1,481 posts

148 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
angrymoby said:
Quick Questions:

1. In the history of F1, how many steering columns have broken pre-accident?
2. How many times in Senna's career, did he manage to crash all by his lonesome?
I can't think of a single incident regarding 1.

As far as 2 is concerned, I can think of a few accidents caused by Senna with nobody else involved only himself - Monaco in 1988 and those below -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzP6nFYdXkE

And another, also Mexico this time in 1992

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lelNF_lkkBs

Oh - and another - Imola 1993 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7i5hx786P4
Also Mexico 91 where he rolled it in the gravel.
Or Brazil 94, spun it following Schumi.
Or Monaco 93 in practice - I think he injured his thumb in the process.

Eric Mc said:
Ask the family of Meredith Kercher about what they think of the Italian court system.
Or Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Eric Mc

95,478 posts

186 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
After the crash at the Italian GP of 1961 which claimed the life of Wolfgang Von Tripps and 14 spectators, the Italian authorities issued a warrant for the arrest of Colin Chapman.

They also tried the same after the 1970 crash that killed Jochen Rindt.

When you think of all the accidents involving Alfa Romeos, Ferraris and Maseratis and how many times did the Italian courts try to detaim Enzo Ferrari or the other Italian team bosses?

ELUSIVEJIM

2,160 posts

72 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
CraigyMc said:
Yes, I agree. That's called hysteresis, by the way.
The reason people mention the tyre pressures is that they'd just got racing again after a long time behind the safety car, so the tyres were cold (and consequently the pressures were below normal, hence slightly lower ride height, and a "squishier" tyre)
If Senna had crashed on the first lap after the safety car then you could state the tyre pressures or the tyres were cold but Senna did a full racing lap before his accident.

The pressures and tyres would have been perfect.

mybrainhurts

88,572 posts

176 months

Monday 9th January
quotequote all
Italian court system...founded on the principles of the Spanish Inquisition...hehe