Honda - another disaster ?

Honda - another disaster ?

Author
Discussion

Gino32

3 posts

81 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
The 2016 Honda was a improvement on 2015, how they got the 2017 so wrong or introduced it half-finished, and let it play out in the practice sessions, races, of race weekend's shows to me massive naivety / oversight that is beyond belief.

Most in the 2nd half of 2016 would be ramping up resources on 2017 engine / power unit. Being based in Japan, surely cannot help.

They will turn it around, as they cannot get any worse. So its just a case of working through the problems.

Long-term, what Mercedes will do in F1, is related to marketing activity. When the time comes for them to go, they may sell up. Mclaren may be aware of this, if it is 2 or 4 years down the road, and if so, would benefit hugely of the high performance engine resources in Brixworth.

You see more Mclaren supercars on the road, than Mercedes. I would not be surprised if Mercedes ends-up buying 25% of Mclaren

As for Mclaren Honda, the terms of their contract, if they are to remain in 2018, Mclaren would want extra guarantees i.e. loss of sponsorship money, loss of F1 standings money, could be an extra 70-100 + million for losses recouping back - which will probably happen, honda will pay up.

By Belguim Spa the post holiday break, we will know if honda has picked up its pace significantly for Imola, or you see no massive progress (ahead of both force india's, and william cars) then 2018 will 100% be mercedes engine in the back.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
If Honda were to just strap engines into mules and do lap after lap at a private circuit-what would happen?

Would the FIA fine them? Would F1? If they were fined, would the cost of that fine be less than the bad publicity they are currently funding?

What I can't imagine is why someone at the top hasn't just said "screw this, let's just keep building engines and experimenting until we get it right"?

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Why would Merc sell their share in the current team, just to buy a stake in McLaren ?

Surely they'd just reduce their share, either by selling some to Toto/Lauda or another investor.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
I believe it was James Allen I was reading earlier who is speculating that McLaren and Honda might have a trial separation for 2018 with McLaren using a Mercedes engine but retaining the option to go back to being Honda's works team for 2019 if they manage to turn it around.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Gino32 said:
The 2016 Honda was a improvement on 2015, how they got the 2017 so wrong or introduced it half-finished, and let it play out in the practice sessions, races, of race weekend's shows to me massive naivety / oversight that is beyond belief.
No it doesn't, Honda went back to the drawing board for 2017- it was a major philosophical change in the layout of the PU. What is now playing out is Honda attempting to implement a number of cutting edge technologies at the same time as all new hardware with basically no testing, long lead times, design team on the other side of the world from all the talent etc etc.

Gino32

3 posts

81 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
No it doesn't, Honda went back to the drawing board for 2017- it was a major philosophical change in the layout of the PU. What is now playing out is Honda attempting to implement a number of cutting edge technologies at the same time as all new hardware with basically no testing, long lead times, design team on the other side of the world from all the talent etc etc.
"major philosophical change", same as Mercedes and what Ferrari's doing with Stuttgart partner Mahle, there's nothing cutting edge that they "honda" are doing, that others haven't.

They came late to the party, we know. But their not doing anything "bleeding edge" that the other 2 "Ferrari and Mercedes"have not done.

Lets give them time, but as I told you by Imola, no significant improvement, Mclaren will switch to Mercedes in 18.

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Gino32 said:
HustleRussell said:
No it doesn't, Honda went back to the drawing board for 2017- it was a major philosophical change in the layout of the PU. What is now playing out is Honda attempting to implement a number of cutting edge technologies at the same time as all new hardware with basically no testing, long lead times, design team on the other side of the world from all the talent etc etc.
"major philosophical change", same as Mercedes and what Ferrari's doing with Stuttgart partner Mahle, there's nothing cutting edge that they "honda" are doing, that others haven't.

They came late to the party, we know. But their not doing anything "bleeding edge" that the other 2 "Ferrari and Mercedes"have not done.

Lets give them time, but as I told you by Imola, no significant improvement, Mclaren will switch to Mercedes in 18.
No one said it's something the others have not done. However Mercedes sorted out the their design over a number of years, which is the one Honda are basically copying. Honda tried to throw it together in perhaps 1/2 a year without proper testing. And from the description of the issues the Honda engine is facing it was one of the big problems Mercedes mentioned (stopping the engine shake itself/ the car apart). So it's not a brand new technology, but trying to apply a piece of technology that took a number of years elsewhere to develop in a much shorted time period.

Gino32

3 posts

81 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Crafty_ said:
Why would Merc sell their share in the current team, just to buy a stake in McLaren ?

Surely they'd just reduce their share, either by selling some to Toto/Lauda or another investor.
First question - Mercedes like other car manufactures who entered F1, saw no added benefit to remain, spend north of £200 million each year, recruit huge resources to remain for ego purposes. Everything is a cycle, has mercedes reached their goal. There's number of decisions to leave. Eventually they may not see it beneficial to remain. Look at Toyota, BMW, you see any less of these cars on the road because their not in F1? Of course you don't.

Your second question -
Reducing their share. Maybe you don't know difference so I'll explain it you, hopefully you can follow basic terminology. Shareholder is one thing, investment is completely different mate. Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project.

Toto Wolf, Nikki Lauda, have a percentage of shares to stay at Mercedes F1 team. They are not writing their own cheques or using their own money, they only hold a percentage of shares and are employees.

Heard of Red Bull? Their investment comes from Red Bull founder dietrich mateschitz.

That investment is coming upfront each year at the beginning. Its upfront to run the business / operations, pay salaries.

What next do you not understand? smile

NRS

22,079 posts

200 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Gino32 said:
Crafty_ said:
Why would Merc sell their share in the current team, just to buy a stake in McLaren ?

Surely they'd just reduce their share, either by selling some to Toto/Lauda or another investor.
First question - Mercedes like other car manufactures who entered F1, saw no added benefit to remain, spend north of £200 million each year, recruit huge resources to remain for ego purposes. Everything is a cycle, has mercedes reached their goal. There's number of decisions to leave. Eventually they may not see it beneficial to remain. Look at Toyota, BMW, you see any less of these cars on the road because their not in F1? Of course you don't.

Your second question -
Reducing their share. Maybe you don't know difference so I'll explain it you, hopefully you can follow basic terminology. Shareholder is one thing, investment is completely different mate. Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project.

Toto Wolf, Nikki Lauda, have a percentage of shares to stay at Mercedes F1 team. They are not writing their own cheques or using their own money, they only hold a percentage of shares and are employees.

Heard of Red Bull? Their investment comes from Red Bull founder dietrich mateschitz.

That investment is coming upfront each year at the beginning. Its upfront to run the business / operations, pay salaries.

What next do you not understand? smile
Well done for the most condescending post of the week award, smile

I think his point was why would they sell the best team on the grid for the last few years/ perhaps this year to buy the worst team on the grid this year? If you could perhaps read the question rather than part of it you might have picked up on that, smile

Crafty_

13,248 posts

199 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Gino32 said:
Crafty_ said:
Why would Merc sell their share in the current team, just to buy a stake in McLaren ?

Surely they'd just reduce their share, either by selling some to Toto/Lauda or another investor.
First question - Mercedes like other car manufactures who entered F1, saw no added benefit to remain, spend north of £200 million each year, recruit huge resources to remain for ego purposes. Everything is a cycle, has mercedes reached their goal. There's number of decisions to leave. Eventually they may not see it beneficial to remain. Look at Toyota, BMW, you see any less of these cars on the road because their not in F1? Of course you don't.

Your second question -
Reducing their share. Maybe you don't know difference so I'll explain it you, hopefully you can follow basic terminology. Shareholder is one thing, investment is completely different mate. Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project.

Toto Wolf, Nikki Lauda, have a percentage of shares to stay at Mercedes F1 team. They are not writing their own cheques or using their own money, they only hold a percentage of shares and are employees.

Heard of Red Bull? Their investment comes from Red Bull founder dietrich mateschitz.

That investment is coming upfront each year at the beginning. Its upfront to run the business / operations, pay salaries.

What next do you not understand? smile
rolleyes

The Merc team are nearly revenue neutral, IIRC they made a $20m or so loss last year. Chicken feed for the $3bn value (their figure) that they get from being in the sport.

When you've stopped being a pillock, maybe you could answer the question ? why sell one team to buy another (or shares thereof)

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
Gino32 said:
Crafty_ said:
Why would Merc sell their share in the current team, just to buy a stake in McLaren ?

Surely they'd just reduce their share, either by selling some to Toto/Lauda or another investor.
First question - Mercedes like other car manufactures who entered F1, saw no added benefit to remain, spend north of £200 million each year, recruit huge resources to remain for ego purposes. Everything is a cycle, has mercedes reached their goal. There's number of decisions to leave. Eventually they may not see it beneficial to remain. Look at Toyota, BMW, you see any less of these cars on the road because their not in F1? Of course you don't.

Your second question -
Reducing their share. Maybe you don't know difference so I'll explain it you, hopefully you can follow basic terminology. Shareholder is one thing, investment is completely different mate. Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project.

Toto Wolf, Nikki Lauda, have a percentage of shares to stay at Mercedes F1 team. They are not writing their own cheques or using their own money, they only hold a percentage of shares and are employees.

Heard of Red Bull? Their investment comes from Red Bull founder dietrich mateschitz.

That investment is coming upfront each year at the beginning. Its upfront to run the business / operations, pay salaries.

What next do you not understand? smile

Oh FFS, not another armchair expert.....

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
'Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project'

Not sure Sergio would sign that one off...

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Monday 19th June 2017
quotequote all
rubystone said:
'Chrysler give Mercedes £200+ million year to invest in F1 project'

Not sure Sergio would sign that one off...
Quite. Chrysler "demerged" in 2007.

FCA = Fiat Chrysler
Daimler = Mercedes + a few other minor brands

Even with their minority stake from 2010, it is a stretch beyond reason that Chysler had any authority or input?

Gino32... anything to correct from the above?

geeks

9,121 posts

138 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
James Allen has hypothesised that Honda could pay for an unbranded Mercedes engine supply for McLaren for just next year, with a return to Honda power in 2019 if they can sort their own engine out. This would take the pressure off Honda a little, while allowing the partnership to continue in the future.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/06/insight-why...
Thus proving what a weapons grade cock James Allen is! (apologies to anyone who is a fan of his, I made a similar sweeping comment about Joe Saward a while ago and someone got very uppity)

IF and I do mean IF that scenario played out then the only reason for it to happen is for Honda to consult and learn from Ze Germans. Which although tabled doesn't seem likely to happen.

It is time for someone to admit this isn't working and get a solution, which ultimately will see McLaren back with a Merc engine. I do think now that we have relative parity between the Merc and Ferrari units that you can now win a championship without being a works team, it just wont be easy, but winning an F1 title isnt supposed to be easy right?

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
geeks said:
Thus proving what a weapons grade cock James Allen is! (apologies to anyone who is a fan of his, I made a similar sweeping comment about Joe Saward a while ago and someone got very uppity)
It's a bit childish more than anything.

He's a pretty well respected journalist and blogger with a lot of contacts. He is willing to put an amount of his reputation on the line behind the story. He is likely to have checked it with multiple sources.

It may be true, it may not be true, it may be "an option" that has been discussed and presented to the board.

But both Joe and James are not "space filling click bait" unlike much of the F1 web press so it's a little harsh to describe him in the way you do...

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
geeks said:
Thus proving what a weapons grade cock James Allen is! (apologies to anyone who is a fan of his, I made a similar sweeping comment about Joe Saward a while ago and someone got very uppity)

IF and I do mean IF that scenario played out then the only reason for it to happen is for Honda to consult and learn from Ze English. Which although tabled doesn't seem likely to happen.

It is time for someone to admit this isn't working and get a solution, which ultimately will see McLaren back with a Merc engine. I do think now that we have relative parity between the Merc and Ferrari units that you can now win a championship without being a works team, it just wont be easy, but winning an F1 title isnt supposed to be easy right?
FTFY

geeks

9,121 posts

138 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
Vaud said:
geeks said:
Thus proving what a weapons grade cock James Allen is! (apologies to anyone who is a fan of his, I made a similar sweeping comment about Joe Saward a while ago and someone got very uppity)
It's a bit childish more than anything.

He's a pretty well respected journalist and blogger with a lot of contacts. He is willing to put an amount of his reputation on the line behind the story. He is likely to have checked it with multiple sources.

It may be true, it may not be true, it may be "an option" that has been discussed and presented to the board.

But both Joe and James are not "space filling click bait" unlike much of the F1 web press so it's a little harsh to describe him in the way you do...
Understood, journalism is a tricky thing, especially in sport. My personal issues aside I do respect their respective careers. Doesn't however mean I have to like them or agree with them (which does happen on occasion) I would love to sit and enjoy a refreshing beverage with Joe and have a proper discussion/debate or whatever around F1 I am sure he has some great yarns to spin!

jsf said:
geeks said:
Thus proving what a weapons grade cock James Allen is! (apologies to anyone who is a fan of his, I made a similar sweeping comment about Joe Saward a while ago and someone got very uppity)

IF and I do mean IF that scenario played out then the only reason for it to happen is for Honda to consult and learn from Ze English. Which although tabled doesn't seem likely to happen.

It is time for someone to admit this isn't working and get a solution, which ultimately will see McLaren back with a Merc engine. I do think now that we have relative parity between the Merc and Ferrari units that you can now win a championship without being a works team, it just wont be easy, but winning an F1 title isnt supposed to be easy right?
FTFY
Fair point hehe

carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
I quite like the sound of McLaren Ferrari.

Such a pairing may be right up there with the Force Indias with their upgraded Mercedes power units.

A little Kiwi perched on the back of the prancing horse could make for some interesting joint marketing opportunities.

Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 20th June 16:16

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
carinaman said:
I quite like the sound of McLaren Ferrari.

Such a pairing may be right up there with the Force Indias with their upgraded Mercedes power units.

A little Kiwi perched on the back of the prancing horse could make for some interesting joint marketing opportunities.
Ferrari might get some perverse pleasure from having McLaren paying them to put Ferrari branding on their car, but I can't see either brand being happy with the link given the obvious rivalry in their road car businesses.

They could potentially rebrand the engines as Alfa Romeo, reviving an old but short-lived link.


carinaman

21,224 posts

171 months

Tuesday 20th June 2017
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
Ferrari might get some perverse pleasure from having McLaren paying them to put Ferrari branding on their car, but I can't see either brand being happy with the link given the obvious rivalry in their road car businesses.

They could potentially rebrand the engines as Alfa Romeo, reviving an old but short-lived link.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opinion-f1-mcla...



Edited by carinaman on Tuesday 20th June 20:23