Honda - another disaster ?

Honda - another disaster ?

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glazbagun

14,259 posts

196 months

Monday 24th July 2017
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matty13 said:
Honda sell more internal combustion engine than anyone else in the world , they will come good
I don't see the mass production of high quality engines as having much in common with bleeding edge prototype design and manufacture.

That's like saying Tag Heuer would be the go to guys for a bespoke orrery because they sell lots of watches.

Ford never repeated their DFV success, BMW gave up, Toyota burned millions with little return but have an enviable record in the road car world, Renualt have dominated the sport for generations at a time but have never been known as standard bearer of reliability and quality.

I think the problem is that Mercedes have taken this so seriously, planned so well and thrown so much money at it that it only Ferrari and (maybe, they've left before) Renualt have the cultural investment to grind their way back to the top of the mountain that Merc have made.


Edited by glazbagun on Monday 24th July 23:29

350Matt

3,733 posts

278 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
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if the rules change to even out the playing field then you may see others return
Merc spent 1 billion euros on their engine......

that's quite frankly ridiculous

swisstoni

16,850 posts

278 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Hopefully the new owners of F1 will ditch the earth saving tech or at least standardise it so several more Billions don't get spent on what has garnered little appreciation from the outside world and made a huge barrier for new entrants and old.
The technology is very impressive and making it all work together in a reliable F1 power unit fairly miraculous.
But where does it get the sport? 'The cars sound crap' - that's the difference Joe Public has taken away from the whole affair.

jammy-git

29,776 posts

211 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Where does the sport go in a decade or two? A number of car manufacturers have already said they're moving to electric only vehicles. France is banning the sale of anything with a combustion engine. Surely every vehicle manufacturer will eventually have to move to electric/hydrogen powered cars.

Will F1 move in the opposite direction and operate in its own little bubble for the sake of the fans (and possibly lose the big teams like Mercedes, Renault, maybe even Ferrari), or move in line with the changing times but have a load of crap, quiet, electric cars charging around the tracks?

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jammy-git said:
Where does the sport go in a decade or two? A number of car manufacturers have already said they're moving to electric only vehicles. France is banning the sale of anything with a combustion engine. Surely every vehicle manufacturer will eventually have to move to electric/hydrogen powered cars.

Will F1 move in the opposite direction and operate in its own little bubble for the sake of the fans (and possibly lose the big teams like Mercedes, Renault, maybe even Ferrari), or move in line with the changing times but have a load of crap, quiet, electric cars charging around the tracks?
Hybrid is here to stay, so I think we will see a simpler engine, at least for 2020-2030. After that, who knows?

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jammy-git said:
Where does the sport go in a decade or two? A number of car manufacturers have already said they're moving to electric only vehicles. France is banning the sale of anything with a combustion engine. Surely every vehicle manufacturer will eventually have to move to electric/hydrogen powered cars.

Will F1 move in the opposite direction and operate in its own little bubble for the sake of the fans (and possibly lose the big teams like Mercedes, Renault, maybe even Ferrari), or move in line with the changing times but have a load of crap, quiet, electric cars charging around the tracks?
We don't ride horses to work but we still have horse racing.

Just as we likely wont drive ICE cars (or even drive at all) in the future, we will still have ICE racing cars. The only time that will change is when none ICE racing cars can be quicker over a GP distance with no swapping cars. We are a long way off that yet.

jammy-git

29,776 posts

211 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jsf said:
We don't ride horses to work but we still have horse racing.

Just as we likely wont drive ICE cars (or even drive at all) in the future, we will still have ICE racing cars. The only time that will change is when none ICE racing cars can be quicker over a GP distance with no swapping cars. We are a long way off that yet.
Sure, but F1 prides itself on being the absolute pinnacle of automotive technology. They can't do that and still have ICE if everybody else is moving away from ICE.

Frimley111R

15,537 posts

233 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
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A key issue here is that the Merc engine came in and was the leading engine. The governing body then halted all development on all engines except for a set amount (tokens etc.) therefore guaranteeing Merc's dominance because no-one could do any more than Merc themselves to catch up and so they all progressed at the same pace.

I agree with dull sounding cars (although they are better now) and hybrid stuff but full EV power seems inevitable eventually.

Back to Honda though and there is no guarantee of success of course, as there isn't for Renault or Ferrari. As they say 'Past performance is no indicator of future potential'.

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jammy-git said:
jsf said:
We don't ride horses to work but we still have horse racing.

Just as we likely wont drive ICE cars (or even drive at all) in the future, we will still have ICE racing cars. The only time that will change is when none ICE racing cars can be quicker over a GP distance with no swapping cars. We are a long way off that yet.
Sure, but F1 prides itself on being the absolute pinnacle of automotive technology. They can't do that and still have ICE if everybody else is moving away from ICE.
That's a very recent phenomenon though. F1 has never previously tried to sell itself based on the technology, or being relevant to anything else. That's just come about in recent years as the marketing departments try to justify the ludicrous amounts having to be spent on hybrid technology under the current formula. They just used to be the loudest, fastest racing cars on the planet, whereas now they're full of mega-expensive, fuel-efficient, tree-hugging techno-bks.

I'm quite sure that if it wasn't for the vast amounts of money already invested, almost every person up and down the pitlane would happily go back to screaming NA V8/10/12 engines.

Vaud

50,289 posts

154 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jammy-git said:
Sure, but F1 prides itself on being the absolute pinnacle of automotive technology.
Yes and no.

No CVT, ABS, active suspension, traction control, 4wd, exotic metals in engines, ground effect, flexi wings, tuned mass dampers, limits on fuel, etc. It is the pinnacle for some technologies within some very set constraints.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
jammy-git said:
Where does the sport go in a decade or two? A number of car manufacturers have already said they're moving to electric only vehicles. France is banning the sale of anything with a combustion engine. Surely every vehicle manufacturer will eventually have to move to electric/hydrogen powered cars.

Will F1 move in the opposite direction and operate in its own little bubble for the sake of the fans (and possibly lose the big teams like Mercedes, Renault, maybe even Ferrari), or move in line with the changing times but have a load of crap, quiet, electric cars charging around the tracks?
Merc announced yesterday they are dropping DTM and going to Formula E, so we can see where the direction of travel is.

MissChief

7,095 posts

167 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
jammy-git said:
jsf said:
We don't ride horses to work but we still have horse racing.

Just as we likely wont drive ICE cars (or even drive at all) in the future, we will still have ICE racing cars. The only time that will change is when none ICE racing cars can be quicker over a GP distance with no swapping cars. We are a long way off that yet.
Sure, but F1 prides itself on being the absolute pinnacle of automotive technology. They can't do that and still have ICE if everybody else is moving away from ICE.
That's a very recent phenomenon though. F1 has never previously tried to sell itself based on the technology, or being relevant to anything else. That's just come about in recent years as the marketing departments try to justify the ludicrous amounts having to be spent on hybrid technology under the current formula. They just used to be the loudest, fastest racing cars on the planet, whereas now they're full of mega-expensive, fuel-efficient, tree-hugging techno-bks.

I'm quite sure that if it wasn't for the vast amounts of money already invested, almost every person up and down the pitlane would happily go back to screaming NA V8/10/12 engines.
Renault said if the NA engines continued they would withdraw. Mercedes agreed that NA development had peaked and had had done so a very long time ago. Minimal gains of two to three HP or ten lb/ft of torque cost millions in development, dyno time and software. Honda said they wouldn't return if NA engines continued as well.

F1 has gone beyond the point of just being a marketing exercise with manufacturer team budgets north of £300 million a season. Ther needs to be at least some element of R&D that the F1 teams can appease the board with. I don't see that formula 1 will have a wholly normally aspirated engine ever again.

matty13

111 posts

157 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
glazbagun said:
matty13 said:
Honda sell more internal combustion engine than anyone else in the world , they will come good
I don't see the mass production of high quality engines as having much in common with bleeding edge prototype design and manufacture.

That's like saying Tag Heuer would be the go to guys for a bespoke orrery because they sell lots of watches.

Ford never repeated their DFV success, BMW gave up, Toyota burned millions with little return but have an enviable record in the road car world, Renualt have dominated the sport for generations at a time but have never been known as standard bearer of reliability and quality.

I think the problem is that Mercedes have taken this so seriously, planned so well and thrown so much money at it that it only Ferrari and (maybe, they've left before) Renualt have the cultural investment to grind their way back to the top of the mountain that Merc have made.


Edited by glazbagun on Monday 24th July 23:29
No but the huge amount of money they make from selling these engines does

amgmcqueen

3,343 posts

149 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
MissChief said:
amgmcqueen said:
Honda are a complete and utter embarrassment and should have never come back.

McLaren need to bin them off ASAP! Hopefully before the end of the season.
I believe they've still completed more race laps than Red Bull. It's Red bull who should leaving. What an embarrassment they are!

If, as has been reported, Mercedes and Ferrari have declined to supply McLaren with Engines then McLaren have little choice but to continue with Honda. The only other option is Renault. It also tells us that Mercedes and Ferrari are afraid of McLaren and theat they're well aware that the car and chassis is clearly good, it's only the engine that's holding them back and if they were to get a good engine they'd be splitting the Red bull's and maybe even fighting with Ferrari and Mercedes themselves.

I FIRMLY believe Honda will come good eventually and it will make the victories even sweeter when they happen.
Let's look at the 2017 standings then.....

3rd Redbull 174pts
10th(stone dead last) McLaren Honda 2pts wow!

Yes Honda are definitely not a joke and Redbull should leave rolleyes

Honda will come good though! They've improved so much over these last 3 years haven't they?! Get real!rofl

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
amgmcqueen said:
Let's look at the 2017 standings then.....

3rd Redbull 174pts
10th(stone dead last) McLaren Honda 2pts wow!

Yes Honda are definitely not a joke and Redbull should leave rolleyes

Honda will come good though! They've improved so much over these last 3 years haven't they?! Get real!rofl
Well that recalibrated my sarcasm-o-meter.

Ignoring all the baseless hyperbole- So you really don't think McLaren have improved since 2015?

carl_w

9,154 posts

257 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Ignoring all the baseless hyperbole- So you really don't think McLaren have improved since 2015?
They showed some promise last year but since then seem to have gone backwards.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
carl_w said:
HustleRussell said:
Ignoring all the baseless hyperbole- So you really don't think McLaren have improved since 2015?
They showed some promise last year but since then seem to have gone backwards.
That's because they basically went back to the drawing board over winter '16/17.

carl_w

9,154 posts

257 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
That's because they basically went back to the drawing board over winter '16/17.
Yes I know, but even at their worst during bust-up with Red Bull/rebranding as Tag Heuer, even Renault weren't this bad.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Of course they weren't, Renault were in at ground level.

That said, I expect that the Honda unit has exceeded last year's Renault in terms of performance and Renault have had their fair share of reliability woes as well.

Honda is progressing, moving target etc etc, and I expect they'll be pretty much on it just in time for the next engine regs overhaul.

carl_w

9,154 posts

257 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
That said, I expect that the Honda unit has exceeded last year's Renault in terms of performance and Renault have had their fair share of reliability woes as well.
Not yet exceeded last year's Ferrari unit though.

F1 is all about the pace of development. You can turn up at race 1 with a winning package but you need to keep up with the pack throughout the season. If you're starting on the back foot you have no chance.

For sure Verstappen isn't a happy bunny but Red Bull have had a few podiums (and wins!) this year. We keep hearing about how good the McLaren chassis/aero is but they have been barely challenging for points let alone podiums.

Edited by carl_w on Tuesday 25th July 22:03