Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
I feel the same way, at least as far as Dennis being McL. He brought the team into the top rung of F1 and kept it there for years. I always felt that the bloke in charge of the FIA wasn't his best friend and this might have caused some of the problems.
I met him once at a small event and he was very friendly, even funny with a dry sense of humour.I think he was a great team leader for the era. He professionalised and added a level of precision and OCD that was absent from many teams - like Schumacher setting the standard for fitness in F1 in the 90's, Dennis set the benchmark for engineering.
That said, when others professionalised to the same level, McLaren lost their edge and I think the structure that they had created then counted against them. Honda was a brave move (and arguably the right one for the time) but the engine failure has masked other structural issues (some the fault of Ron, some not)
Car-Matt said:
So if they qualify well in q1 today is the chassis s
t or the engine? Alonso in 4th so far...
The engine is perfectly fine, as the exact same specification engine has already won two races for Red Bull this season (albeit one of them where it is impossible to overtake). t or the engine? Alonso in 4th so far...So 16th and 18th should tell you all you need to know...
Edited by Teppic on Saturday 23 June 19:16
McLaren are talking about aero issues that they cannot see in the wind tunnel.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-cant-se...
They've been trying out different wing levels at the Paul Ricard during practice. Lots of flow viz and aero rake testing went on yesterday.
They brought some developments on the front wing to Monaco and also lots of flow viz on the FW there trying to understand if the flow is what they expect...
This is a big one. Sadly, this most likely means the season is a write off with a big uncertainty over future developments in the pipeline for this car.
Must say, this surprises me. They had some problems with performance in the straight earlier on this year, but they looked decent in Spain compared to the top cars. They weren't a million miles away in performance to the Red Bull there. Every race since, there has been a lot of issues with the car. Perhaps, the track layout and familiarity with Barcelona masked the real issues?
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-cant-se...
They've been trying out different wing levels at the Paul Ricard during practice. Lots of flow viz and aero rake testing went on yesterday.
They brought some developments on the front wing to Monaco and also lots of flow viz on the FW there trying to understand if the flow is what they expect...
This is a big one. Sadly, this most likely means the season is a write off with a big uncertainty over future developments in the pipeline for this car.
Must say, this surprises me. They had some problems with performance in the straight earlier on this year, but they looked decent in Spain compared to the top cars. They weren't a million miles away in performance to the Red Bull there. Every race since, there has been a lot of issues with the car. Perhaps, the track layout and familiarity with Barcelona masked the real issues?
Leithen said:
And then there is the question of their design team - do they have the right team? Have they simply been on a steady decline since Newey left?
The churn rate for new design requirements is too fast to be able to coast along on whatever was left behind. You don't get a steady decline, you fall off a cliff.What engineering organisations find - often too late - is that the number of people who can quickly innovate, problem solve and generally create the new inspired concepts is pretty tiny. You'll have lots of good solid competent people but it's hard to find the ones who pop out the really new ideas or who can identify a problem in 30 seconds that the team has been looking at for a week. And that just isn't a skill you can teach or transfer.
So one problem might well be a lack of the right sort of talent. Alternatively it could just be a failure of management to properly motivate, support and use the talent they have in front of them.
Things I heard from the inside (while the first Honda car was still in development, so not exactly up to date) mostly sounded like an organisation with resources and arrogance and with no particular plan to improve. It sounded wasteful and inefficient and unwilling to accept ideas. So people left.
Jonesy23 said:
Leithen said:
And then there is the question of their design team - do they have the right team? Have they simply been on a steady decline since Newey left?
The churn rate for new design requirements is too fast to be able to coast along on whatever was left behind. You don't get a steady decline, you fall off a cliff.What engineering organisations find - often too late - is that the number of people who can quickly innovate, problem solve and generally create the new inspired concepts is pretty tiny. You'll have lots of good solid competent people but it's hard to find the ones who pop out the really new ideas or who can identify a problem in 30 seconds that the team has been looking at for a week. And that just isn't a skill you can teach or transfer.
So one problem might well be a lack of the right sort of talent. Alternatively it could just be a failure of management to properly motivate, support and use the talent they have in front of them.
Things I heard from the inside (while the first Honda car was still in development, so not exactly up to date) mostly sounded like an organisation with resources and arrogance and with no particular plan to improve. It sounded wasteful and inefficient and unwilling to accept ideas. So people left.
The shareholders need to clear out the mediocre executives running the F1 team. Better to do that now and aim to be front-running by 2021 than struggle along with the current, malfunctioning operation and hope to strike it lucky.
It's clear the workers have lost belief in their leaders' ability to turn it around and there's no evidence from those leaders that they have the vision to achieve it.
It's clear the workers have lost belief in their leaders' ability to turn it around and there's no evidence from those leaders that they have the vision to achieve it.
Well, they seem hell bent on running skinny wings when everyone else seemed to be piling it on yesterday's race, so perhaps there is a problem of too much drag at higher downforce levels. Could be related to the wind tunnel correlation problems.
Even the TR was carrying a fairly hefty spoon wing...
Even the TR was carrying a fairly hefty spoon wing...
Car-Matt said:
This triple header is hopefully the low point and bottom of the curve, it’s truly dreadful.
I’m gonna to Silverstone this year and I’m not really like moo g forward to it...../
They were supposed to bring a big update for Silverstone, I don't know how effective it will be. If aero efficiency is a problem, Silverstone is going to be even more dreadful.I’m gonna to Silverstone this year and I’m not really like moo g forward to it...../
At least the Renault PU should give McLaren some stability to concentrate on their other issues, without hiding behind the Honda problems.
Meanwhile, it's a familiar story from the Honda runners, and they're still way behind the others on reliability as well... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-stra...
Meanwhile, it's a familiar story from the Honda runners, and they're still way behind the others on reliability as well... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-stra...
thegreenhell said:
At least the Renault PU should give McLaren some stability to concentrate on their other issues, without hiding behind the Honda problems.
Meanwhile, it's a familiar story from the Honda runners, and they're still way behind the others on reliability as well... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-stra...
Honda beginning to regret not packing it in after all, if this is likely to be the RB/TR relationship with them...Meanwhile, it's a familiar story from the Honda runners, and they're still way behind the others on reliability as well... https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/toro-rosso-stra...
thegreenhell said:
At least the Renault PU should give McLaren some stability to concentrate on their other issues, without hiding behind the Honda problems.
Even if Honda find another 200hp and perfect reliability by the next race, McLaren changing to Renault is the single best decision the company has made in recent times and likely the first step of their turn around.
McLaren seems a rather arrogant team, happy to blame everything on Honda. Sharing a powerplant with Redbull has very publicly embarrassed every single member of staff and with EB 'resigning' it looks like they maybe have taken the first of the 12 steps of recovery and been truly honest with themselves.
God, I hope so.
Frimley111R said:
Gasly says: "But in the corners, looking at the GPS, we are faster and it looks pretty good, but just on the straights at the moment we are really slow.
“Objectively we have no pace, not coming from the car, but from the engine.”
Where have we heard that before?....
Sounds as if they have the best chassis in field but the engine is letting them down “Objectively we have no pace, not coming from the car, but from the engine.”
Where have we heard that before?....
If McL can qualify better there would be a case for them challenging for 4th in the constructors based on yesterday. Good race pace and able to overtake a Haas at Silverstone at the end for P8. Not bad for a team in huge turmoil and no wind tunnel correlation. It shows the potential is there if they eventually get their shizzle together.
On a separate note from trackside this weekend the Honda engine sounds the best. Deeper than the rest with a turbine like whoosh. I love how the hybrids sound, love the v8’s and v10’s too but they are special in their own way
On a separate note from trackside this weekend the Honda engine sounds the best. Deeper than the rest with a turbine like whoosh. I love how the hybrids sound, love the v8’s and v10’s too but they are special in their own way
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