Noisier & cheaper engines from 2021
Discussion
swisstoni said:
Unfortunately I think we are all headed for a glorified Formula E.
Screaming Vees will be as relevant' by then as steam to the manufacturers.
Exactly.Screaming Vees will be as relevant' by then as steam to the manufacturers.
F1 will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology etc., and thus once tech goes ever more electric so will F1. No way when almost everyone is driving electric cars (or almost all cars are self driving electric) will there be F1 cars running noisy ICE's - that simply won't happen.
Will we're currently in a evolutionary transition period (which may well be several decades) those of you in your 20's/early 30's will be seeing a VERY different motorsport in your later years (if motorsport even exists then as we know it today)
aeropilot said:
Exactly.
F1 will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology etc., and thus once tech goes ever more electric so will F1. No way when almost everyone is driving electric cars (or almost all cars are self driving electric) will there be F1 cars running noisy ICE's - that simply won't happen.
Will we're currently in a evolutionary transition period (which may well be several decades) those of you in your 20's/early 30's will be seeing a VERY different motorsport in your later years (if motorsport even exists then as we know it today)
But they aren't and can't be the pinnacle of technology... we have evolved tech too fast. I can't remember who said it, but if all F1 tech was applied to a car, a driver wouldn't be able to take the cornering speeds.F1 will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology etc., and thus once tech goes ever more electric so will F1. No way when almost everyone is driving electric cars (or almost all cars are self driving electric) will there be F1 cars running noisy ICE's - that simply won't happen.
Will we're currently in a evolutionary transition period (which may well be several decades) those of you in your 20's/early 30's will be seeing a VERY different motorsport in your later years (if motorsport even exists then as we know it today)
Let's take the baseline cars that we have and add:
- Exotic engine materials
- Exotic fuels
- ABS/stability control/independent braking
- 4WD
- Traction control
- CVT
- Active suspension/dampers
- Ground effects
It has to be a partially contrived sport to survive. I have hope in Ross Brawn & co but they need 3 years.
Vaud said:
aeropilot said:
Exactly.
F1 will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology etc., and thus once tech goes ever more electric so will F1. No way when almost everyone is driving electric cars (or almost all cars are self driving electric) will there be F1 cars running noisy ICE's - that simply won't happen.
Will we're currently in a evolutionary transition period (which may well be several decades) those of you in your 20's/early 30's will be seeing a VERY different motorsport in your later years (if motorsport even exists then as we know it today)
But they aren't and can't be the pinnacle of technology... F1 will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology etc., and thus once tech goes ever more electric so will F1. No way when almost everyone is driving electric cars (or almost all cars are self driving electric) will there be F1 cars running noisy ICE's - that simply won't happen.
Will we're currently in a evolutionary transition period (which may well be several decades) those of you in your 20's/early 30's will be seeing a VERY different motorsport in your later years (if motorsport even exists then as we know it today)
That's why I said, it will still be pushed as the pinnacle of technology, as you see it posted by many on here time and again.
I've always had the view it should be the pinnacle of open-wheeled RACING.....but I'm clearly in the minority on that, which is why, I've spent the last 10 years gradually weaning myself off it.
Fortunately that's been made a lot easier for me with its gradual demise from free TV. Its highly likely this year will be the first year in over 30 I'll not actually see a single seasons race live on TV.
housen said:
fck todt
hes such a political French tw1t
mainly French tw1t
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-motor-f1-engines... before
and now after
FIA President Jean Todt said: "I was very pleased with the process, and the fact that so many different stakeholders were able to agree on a direction for the FIA F1 world championship in such an important technical area.
What's your problem with him? He's done the only thing he could do, and that's go for agreement from those funding the sport.hes such a political French tw1t
mainly French tw1t
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-motor-f1-engines... before
and now after
FIA President Jean Todt said: "I was very pleased with the process, and the fact that so many different stakeholders were able to agree on a direction for the FIA F1 world championship in such an important technical area.
Edited by housen on Monday 3rd April 07:43
He's got limited influence. The FIA was emasculated as far as F1 is concerned by the previous bloke. He's done alright so far. He's not attacked any particular team, I'm unaware of any suggestion he favours a particular team, he's tried to promote lower formulae, and politics have taken a back seat.
F1 is now controlled by LM. It needs the teams. It needs the manufacturers. It needs the circuits. It can, if it wishes, all but ignore the FIA. Todt is trying to get it to keep what little relevance it has.
If we look at the last two incumbents, Todt is a breath of freshish, although garlic laden no doubt, air.
I can't say I like the bloke, and in that I know I joined by some of those who own certain Ferrari classics, but if he continues the way he's going, i.e. by not being obstructive, then I'm willing to cut him some slack.
Why stick with just petrol and electric?
How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
Ragnor said:
Why stick with just petrol and electric?
How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
You could go with methanol but it is colourless when it burns which can be an issue. How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
Vaud said:
Ragnor said:
Why stick with just petrol and electric?
How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
You could go with methanol but it is colourless when it burns which can be an issue. How about opening the door up to other fuel sources? If we are going to cut out fossil fuels long term then there is a huge amount of R&D to be completed and formula one could provide a good test bed for it. As far as I know the TT zero race isn't limited to electric, although they have all gone down this route, but with the larger budgets of F1 then possibly we may see Hydrogen, Ammonia or other fuel sources. Some fuels could be used with an internal combustion engine too, although most likely not.
Even without noisy engines, I think it could make a really interesting spectacle if we had completely different engines on the go and it could also create a massive development leap for the whole motoring industry? Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved to have heard a BRM V16, or the Honda 6 going around the isle of man but things move on. Onwards and upwards
Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
Vaud said:
housen said:
ive just realised we now are going to have 3 years of total speculation of what engines they will bring in as per all other f1 threads driver moves etc hahah
I reckon 18 months, to give the manufacturers 18-24 months of dev cycle ahead of 2021 launch.Vaud said:
You could go with methanol but it is colourless when it burns which can be an issue.
Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
I agree with Hydrogen being tricky, as is electricity when using it in cars in terms of travelling anywhere over 100 miles in a short time and on a decent budget or biofuels due to the lack of land to grow fuel crops alongside the crops we use for food. Hence the need for R&D, and other than starting a war and banning the use of fossil fuels in said war, a bit of competition is the best way to generate productivity.
It's unlikely that one fuel source will prove to be dominant moving forwards (talking about in the real world to power cars, lorries, boats and planes) therefore this could prove to be the real world connection.
I think so much of the debate is predicated on two flawed assumptions- first , that F1 engines need to be relevant to road cars and second that the only way to control costs is to make rules on expenditure . Generally . it's agreed that F1 engines need to be 800-1000bhp - and that is hugely expensive from a turbo hybrid little V6 but far, far cheaper from a n/a engine of 4-5 litres . It would sound much better too,. of course and with a rev limit of below 15 k the engines should be far cheaper than the current nonsense and could be made by the usual suspects like Cosworth and so on .
Second , the only reason budgets are so huge is that manufacturers - or the very small number of them who don't see F1 as a blind alley - will spend whatever they can get hold of.
So , the objective for me would be to disincentivise manufacturers from F1 by making it technically unappealing and also incentivise more manufacturers into sports prototypes - which is still far cheaper than F1 , and which is just the right place for clever tech. Conveniently. endurance racing is already about makers not drivers(Hamilton wins in F1 , not Merc , but Porsche not Brendan Hartley or whoever wins Le Mans) .
Second , the only reason budgets are so huge is that manufacturers - or the very small number of them who don't see F1 as a blind alley - will spend whatever they can get hold of.
So , the objective for me would be to disincentivise manufacturers from F1 by making it technically unappealing and also incentivise more manufacturers into sports prototypes - which is still far cheaper than F1 , and which is just the right place for clever tech. Conveniently. endurance racing is already about makers not drivers(Hamilton wins in F1 , not Merc , but Porsche not Brendan Hartley or whoever wins Le Mans) .
coppice said:
Generally . it's agreed that F1 engines need to be 800-1000bhp - and that is hugely expensive from a turbo hybrid little V6 but far, far cheaper from a n/a engine of 4-5 litres .
Why not just have 1.5litre turbo blocks? Much lighter? With modern control systems 1000hp should be no issue.ash73 said:
From the Martin Brundle interview on Sky:
Sounds great. Design the engine regs in such a way that you don't need a billion pounds and three or more years to develop a competitive power unit.Ross Brawn said:
My nirvana is we have an affordable engine, which still appeals to manufacturers but is a business model which can be produced by an Ilmor, a Cosworth or an independent supplier. I think we then have to work out what it is about the cars we want to be distinct amongst the teams.
What does he mean? Doesn't sound very promising.ash73 said:
From the Martin Brundle interview on Sky:
What he means is there is no way that an independent supplier can afford to design and build an F1 engine, let alone a competitive one. Its just too expensive and/or requires access to resources that are beyond companies like Judd, Cosworth, Hart - all of which used to make F1 engines. What he wants is to have a set of engine regulations that manufacturers like (and thus, will participate) but doesn't prevent independents getting involved.Ross Brawn said:
My nirvana is we have an affordable engine, which still appeals to manufacturers but is a business model which can be produced by an Ilmor, a Cosworth or an independent supplier. I think we then have to work out what it is about the cars we want to be distinct amongst the teams.
What does he mean? Doesn't sound very promising.the bit about the cars being different he did expand on - there is much that goes in to an F1 car that adds to the build cost but doesn't affect performance. Brawn has suggested that these bits could be standardised or at least made to be "off the shelf" to help reduce costs.
Vaud said:
Why not just have 1.5litre turbo blocks? Much lighter? With modern control systems 1000hp should be no issue.
True - but although a turbo V6 can sound great (the 80s Honda and Renault did ) nothing beats a screaming na - preferably a 10 or 12. And that sheer spectacle is a major part of F1 appeal - I can recall so many examples of first timers to live F1 being borderline terrified by the volume. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff