Noisier & cheaper engines from 2021
Discussion
coppice said:
True - but although a turbo V6 can sound great (the 80s Honda and Renault did ) nothing beats a screaming na - preferably a 10 or 12. And that sheer spectacle is a major part of F1 appeal - I can recall so many examples of first timers to live F1 being borderline terrified by the volume.
A rumbling great V-8 comes close. Let the back markers run an all alloy Corvette engine. Now THAT would be a cost saving! McLaren would probably be quicker with one of those in the back of the car. 
CanAm said:
coppice said:
True - but although a turbo V6 can sound great (the 80s Honda and Renault did ) nothing beats a screaming na - preferably a 10 or 12. And that sheer spectacle is a major part of F1 appeal - I can recall so many examples of first timers to live F1 being borderline terrified by the volume.
A rumbling great V-8 comes close. Let the back markers run an all alloy Corvette engine. Now THAT would be a cost saving! McLaren would probably be quicker with one of those in the back of the car. All they need to do is have control front and rear wings, as the only aerodynamic devices, completely free engines choice with no stupid hybrid systems and mechanical grip and we can go racing again.....
Not going to happen in a million years though.....
ash73 said:
Unless by "an engine" he means singular, i.e. same design manufactured by each team, I can't see how a new set of engine regs will prevent the big boys spending big bucks to find an advantage. If he scraps all the hybrid crap and returns to NA/ICE that could work but I can't see the manufacturers going for it; and if he just caps the budget nobody will ever catch Merc.
I don't like the idea of standardised parts one bit, this is F1 not bumper cars. Just redistribute the money better and let them get on with it.
There was an idea that was floating around recently that FIA was to measure the power produced by the hybrid engines from Merc/Ferrari/Renault/Honda and find a way to make sure that the disparity is no more than 0.3s between the best PU and the worst.I don't like the idea of standardised parts one bit, this is F1 not bumper cars. Just redistribute the money better and let them get on with it.
There may be a way to create a playing field where manufacturers are interested but also have independents producing a cheaper engine for non-works teams. Added bonus could be more noise/more competition between teams.
FIA can access everything that the works teams do, so they should measure the power output of the hybrid engines of the works outfits and see what kind of power increases are in the pipeline through the year. Get an independent to make a simple ICE to match the power outputs of the best hybrid engine (both in qualifying and race trim). Spec this ICE to be noisy, so (very) high revving V10/V12/V6 whatever.
The catch is, teams using the independent engine can use one engine per weekend. Manufacturers are only allowed to use 6 per season (so only allowed to bring six iterations of a power unit). Manufacturers can spend what they like to be competitive and get to keep their marketing kudos of linking their racing tech to their road cars, however tenuous it may be ("our hybrid engines are so reliable"). Midfield/back marker teams get a cheap competitive engine and can work on their chassis/aero to compete with the big boys.
There may be enough pros and cons to both approaches that manufacturers shouldn't feel that the playing field is unfair for them to be involved. For ex, it might be impossible for an ICE to be as fuel efficient as a hybrid engine, so whilst in outright qualifying pace a midfield team may be on par and even better than a works team, they might have to carry extra fuel compared to a hybrid-engine'd works car to complete the race.
So, we could have more midfield teams qualifying ahead and trying to fight and keep works cars behind. Naturally, this would drive aero development to be efficient in dirty air to help in overtaking. And may be teams would start to recruit more talented drivers over those that bring money and are 'quick enough', as they will depend more on the drivers keeping faster cars behind to earn points.
Even the current hybrid-engines can be made noisy fairly easily. The current PUs can rev to 15k rpm, but max fuel flow is at something like 10.5k rpm, which forces engine manufacturers to cap the engine revs at that limit. Say if max fuel flow is spec'd at 14k rpm from when the regulations were drawn up originally, I doubt we'd have people complaining of the noise.
I reckon Ross Brawn has the understanding of the sport and political nous to make some of the above ideas happen.
aeropilot said:
CanAm said:
coppice said:
True - but although a turbo V6 can sound great (the 80s Honda and Renault did ) nothing beats a screaming na - preferably a 10 or 12. And that sheer spectacle is a major part of F1 appeal - I can recall so many examples of first timers to live F1 being borderline terrified by the volume.
A rumbling great V-8 comes close. Let the back markers run an all alloy Corvette engine. Now THAT would be a cost saving! McLaren would probably be quicker with one of those in the back of the car. All they need to do is have control front and rear wings, as the only aerodynamic devices, completely free engines choice with no stupid hybrid systems and mechanical grip and we can go racing again.....
Not going to happen in a million years though.....
Vaud said:
You could go with methanol but it is colourless when it burns which can be an issue.
Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
Methanol has a low calorific value, you need to burn almost twice as much by weight for the same power output, which is why you need refuelling or huge fuel tank capacity to use it in racing.Hydrogen is tricky (tank sizes, etc) and has a low energy density - until you get to very high pressures (700bar)
When will the realise the answer is Alot more power and Much worse brakes?
If the cars do 250mph but take 150mtrs+ to slow down for corners instead of 40mtrs the drivers will need bigger balls and skill to pass and there will be a lower margin or error means better drivers win over better cars... Simplifying aero would help but it doesn't open up the braking zone.
F1 should be borderline terrifying to watch.
If the cars do 250mph but take 150mtrs+ to slow down for corners instead of 40mtrs the drivers will need bigger balls and skill to pass and there will be a lower margin or error means better drivers win over better cars... Simplifying aero would help but it doesn't open up the braking zone.
F1 should be borderline terrifying to watch.
scubadude said:
When will the realise the answer is Alot more power and Much worse brakes?
If the cars do 250mph but take 150mtrs+ to slow down for corners instead of 40mtrs the drivers will need bigger balls and skill to pass and there will be a lower margin or error means better drivers win over better cars... Simplifying aero would help but it doesn't open up the braking zone.
F1 should be borderline terrifying to watch.
F1 cars will never be allowed to reach 250MPH on the circuits they use.If the cars do 250mph but take 150mtrs+ to slow down for corners instead of 40mtrs the drivers will need bigger balls and skill to pass and there will be a lower margin or error means better drivers win over better cars... Simplifying aero would help but it doesn't open up the braking zone.
F1 should be borderline terrifying to watch.
Even an early 1980's F1 car on steel brakes can brake at the 80 metre board from 180MPH. Just coming off the throttle at that speed gives you 1G deceleration because of the Aero drag.
I think it's a great shame that more hasn't been made of the current engines (simply incredible thermal efficiency, regen and clawback, specific output etc etc); they are incredible powerplants.
Just think, despite loving v12's, v10's and less so the v8's, that going back to a larger cylinder engine is a dramatic step backwards, from a PR point of view. It's not the way the rest of the world is going; far more political now. I think F1 can and will be the pinnacle of motorsport - I think they just need to enlighten people more about what these cars are about now.
Just think, despite loving v12's, v10's and less so the v8's, that going back to a larger cylinder engine is a dramatic step backwards, from a PR point of view. It's not the way the rest of the world is going; far more political now. I think F1 can and will be the pinnacle of motorsport - I think they just need to enlighten people more about what these cars are about now.
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
I think it's a great shame that more hasn't been made of the current engines (simply incredible thermal efficiency, regen and clawback, specific output etc etc); they are incredible powerplants.
Just think, despite loving v12's, v10's and less so the v8's, that going back to a larger cylinder engine is a dramatic step backwards, from a PR point of view. It's not the way the rest of the world is going; far more political now. I think F1 can and will be the pinnacle of motorsport - I think they just need to enlighten people more about what these cars are about now.
One of the greatest failings of the FIA and F1... a shift from 29%(?) to 47%+ engine efficiency in a few years. Just think, despite loving v12's, v10's and less so the v8's, that going back to a larger cylinder engine is a dramatic step backwards, from a PR point of view. It's not the way the rest of the world is going; far more political now. I think F1 can and will be the pinnacle of motorsport - I think they just need to enlighten people more about what these cars are about now.
Vaud said:
One of the greatest failings of the FIA and F1... a shift from 29%(?) to 47%+ engine efficiency in a few years.
.... but absolutely zip in practical terms for everyday road-going cars.By now, I had at least expected at least a dual exhaust / electrical powered turbo on a small engine. The trouble is that after VW, the regulators have now realised that engines on part-throttle tend to be a lot dirtier in towns, as they have to burn extra fuel to clean the Cat.
Most new hybrids tend to be plug-in rather using regenerative, so not much has really progressed from the Prius. Plug-ins are just a fancy way of getting high powered leviathans appear to have good emmissions in town when they suddenly become EVs.
There is so little in common between driving flat out on a circuit and ordinary motoring in-town that using hybrid technology in F1 offers very little in the way of positive marketing. Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren now tend to be turbo-only. Ferrari and Jaguar entering FE shows where the future really lies.
The AER 2.2 turbo is probably a cost-effective solution for F1 customers and allow the big spenders to blow money on their own version of similar specced engines.
Edited by rdjohn on Tuesday 4th April 17:48
Worried from a PR view? Yet another reason why F1 has gone to hell in a handcart; it constantly behaves as an apologist for itself and seems to think that whoever it's frightened of will welcome current hybrids . F1 has rarely , if ever , had much relevance to road cars and only pretends to now because it has got so bloated on manufacturer money it's addicted to it. Manufacturers can do the clever- and relevant and important stuff- in endurance racing for a fraction of F1 budgets.
F1 is about very fast and very noisy cars which very few can drive to the limit. It doesn't need hybrid V6s, insane aero and obscene costs to achieve its objective- so much cash has been spent only because it was there to spend. Honestly, the FIA et al haven't had a bloody clue - they create an overtaking working group and a couple of years later whack on more aero - so even less overtaking .
F1 is about very fast and very noisy cars which very few can drive to the limit. It doesn't need hybrid V6s, insane aero and obscene costs to achieve its objective- so much cash has been spent only because it was there to spend. Honestly, the FIA et al haven't had a bloody clue - they create an overtaking working group and a couple of years later whack on more aero - so even less overtaking .
Hopefully Brawn will be able to bring the cost cap option in - that will help the small teams hugely and also bring a lot more teams from lower formulas in, especially if it's tied in with a decent customer engine.
A bit more variety of motive power would be good too - Hybrids, turbos, V8s, V12s, rotaries, gas turbines, fuel cells, whatever.
A bit more variety of motive power would be good too - Hybrids, turbos, V8s, V12s, rotaries, gas turbines, fuel cells, whatever.
steve-5snwi said:
It would be more interesting if they based F1 on the wacky races and tried to stop a pigeon.
If one were to look at recent Formula One history, most of the cast of Wacky Races are already there;Max and Bernie as Dastardly and Muttley, for example.
Susie Wolff as Penelope Pitstop, anyone?
No Pigeons were stopped/harmed during the Wacky Races. Because there was no pigeon in it.
No pigeons were stopped/harmed in "Dastardly and Muttley", either. That DID feature a pigeon, though.
Forgive me, I digress...
Crafty_ said:
Cost caps aren't going to happen because they are unenforceable.
I think that in reality, it could be fairly simple. It's just that the big teams don't want it.If teams size were limited to about 100 design and 50 race personnel, then an audit trail would have to exist for everything that goes on the car. A couple of sceptical forensic accountants and engineers for each team could ask all the right questions and be rotated annually to resist indoctrination and ensure consistency.
Any team found guilty of cheating gets penalised and pillared.
coppice said:
True - but although a turbo V6 can sound great (the 80s Honda and Renault did ) nothing beats a screaming na - preferably a 10 or 12. And that sheer spectacle is a major part of F1 appeal - I can recall so many examples of first timers to live F1 being borderline terrified by the volume.
I had seen historic F1 cars race at Zolder, they were loud but nothing spectacular and it didn't prepare me for the impact of sitting at the exit of La Source when JB in his Mc Merc floored it to go down the hill. All well and good, have you ever stood next to a top fuel dragster when it is being started? F1 is like a lawn mower compared with one of those.
Yes- saw my first top fuller in '73 and have been addicted ever since- got my last fix at Santa Pod in September ! A lot of DFV engined cars sounded impressive enough, but not soul stirring . Personal highlights from trackside have included Matra MS 120,any Ferrari or Alfa V or flat 12 etc but the one best sounding engine for me was the Toyota V10 from about 2005 - amazing range of noises .
rdjohn said:
Most new hybrids tend to be plug-in rather using regenerative,
I think a lot of that is down to the favourable tax regime for plugins which AFAIK isn't extended to those that don't provid electrical energy in that form.FWIW I think the old 4 cylinder turbo engines from the '80s don't actually sound that special. The multi-cylinder cars, yes. But surely getting a decent sound out of the current cars can't be difficult can it?
rubystone said:
I think a lot of that is down to the favourable tax regime for plugins which AFAIK isn't extended to those that don't provid electrical energy in that form.
FWIW I think the old 4 cylinder turbo engines from the '80s don't actually sound that special. The multi-cylinder cars, yes. But surely getting a decent sound out of the current cars can't be difficult can it?
The BMW, especially in qually trim, sounded awesome accelerating along the top straight at Brands. I accept the V6 Hondas were louder and shriller, but I'm not sure you could say one sounded better than the other. I had to go to my doctor on the Thursday after the '85 European GP with ringing in my ears. After examining my ears she asked if I'd been punched in the head.FWIW I think the old 4 cylinder turbo engines from the '80s don't actually sound that special. The multi-cylinder cars, yes. But surely getting a decent sound out of the current cars can't be difficult can it?
I suppose I had, and for an hour and a half.
I now suffer from hearing loss. I wonder why.
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