Bernie Ecclestone sinks to new low....
Discussion
craigjm said:
Anyone who thinks that Liberty are not in it to make money as their first and over riding objective are fooling themselves. They may go about it in a different way to Ecclestone but the objective is the same.
Liberty so far seem to be keen to make more money by getting more people watching the sport, whether or not they'll see that vision through remains to be seen. Bernie wanted to make money by getting less people watching the sport but charging them more, and screwing every last penny out of the tracks and governments who wanted to host the races. If Liberty do what they say they want to do, they will make more money and increase their share price, while improving the health of the sport.Bernie was a bitter, greedy old relic who never seemed overly concerned about the sport as long as he was getting some dosh.
Mastodon2 said:
Liberty so far seem to be keen to make more money by getting more people watching the sport, whether or not they'll see that vision through remains to be seen. Bernie wanted to make money by getting less people watching the sport but charging them more, and screwing every last penny out of the tracks and governments who wanted to host the races. If Liberty do what they say they want to do, they will make more money and increase their share price, while improving the health of the sport.
Exactly so. That's what I was trying to say. 
Mastodon2 said:
Liberty so far seem to be keen to make more money by getting more people watching the sport, whether or not they'll see that vision through remains to be seen. Bernie wanted to make money by getting less people watching the sport but charging them more, and screwing every last penny out of the tracks and governments who wanted to host the races. If Liberty do what they say they want to do, they will make more money and increase their share price, while improving the health of the sport.
Bernie was a bitter, greedy old relic who never seemed overly concerned about the sport as long as he was getting some dosh.
And LM have already said they will continue with Pay TV. They've suggested pushing the teams to do more races. They've talked about doing more social media, but have yet to do anything. Bernie was a bitter, greedy old relic who never seemed overly concerned about the sport as long as he was getting some dosh.
So they are making a lot of noise but not actually doing anything to CVC & Bernie at the moment. Jury is still out.
Crafty_ said:
And LM have already said they will continue with Pay TV. They've suggested pushing the teams to do more races. They've talked about doing more social media, but have yet to do anything.
So they are making a lot of noise but not actually doing anything to CVC & Bernie at the moment. Jury is still out.
They have relaxed the rules for teams and drivers using social media haven't they? Or was that only for testing? Thought the teams were able to post video and pictures from the circuit now?So they are making a lot of noise but not actually doing anything to CVC & Bernie at the moment. Jury is still out.
Crafty_ said:
Right and now Bernie has gone that "desire for money, money, money" has gone has it ? Not. A. Chance. LM have already stated they are quite happy with pay TV to continue - ££££ 25 races a year has been mentioned - ££££
Over anything is the fact that the teams are not going to stop leveraging anything they can to get money from FOM.
If you think that all is well now Bernie has gone because of your obsessive hatred for the man you are sadly mistaken.
LM are in F1 to make money, they may take a different approach for some aspects but n the big scheme of things, little will change.
You appear to be criticising me for something I didn’t say.Over anything is the fact that the teams are not going to stop leveraging anything they can to get money from FOM.
If you think that all is well now Bernie has gone because of your obsessive hatred for the man you are sadly mistaken.
LM are in F1 to make money, they may take a different approach for some aspects but n the big scheme of things, little will change.
Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 16th April 11:21
I would suggest that the majority of people know that most companies try to produce the same product, but merely go about it in different ways. Liberty have bought into F1 because they believe they will be able to make a profit. I was under the, apparently mistaken, belief that this is so obvious that it does not need to be mentioned.
If Liberty are not in F1 to make money then it is probable that they will fail and maybe even take F1 with them, so let’s hope they do make a profit in one way or another.
So I’m bemused by your money, money, money comment. It has no relevance to anything I posted.
Back to the subject; there are many ways to measure the health of the sport: the number of cars on the grid, the viewing figures, the amount of investment from outside. Lots of ways. One way is the long term viability.
I don’t think the sport was in a healthy condition when Liberty took over.
If you read my posts -, I nearly typed carefully, but I think merely reading with an open mind is required - you will see that I criticise those who eulogise Ecclestone.
I hope that Liberty will change things for the better. They will come in with new ideas, and we have seen some of these already despite the company buying into a product with long term agreements, contracts and concords. I doubt that we will be able to tell until 2020 if we they will make a significant improvement.
It’s a sport. It’s a sport that I’ve followed for over 50 years, so it is obvious that I enjoy it. I’m all for chats about what’s going on. Others have ideas which contradict my point of view. It doesn’t make me or them wrong, we're probably approaching the situation from a different angle.
I look upon forums in the same way as a chat in a pub or club. So if you disagree with me, I’m happy to read what you say and carry on with the discussion. Personal criticism, on the other hand, is rude and is somewhat out of order.
I have some respect for Bernie’s honesty. Everyone knew what his job actually was to do – make as big a profit for the owners of F1 and do so for as long as could be sustained before risks became issues large enough to show a sustained drop in income. Then they’d get out fast. Which they’ve done.
That he came out and admitted that out loud, I have some respect for.
Do I like the facts that the vulture approach of CVC, the business goals Bernie worked to and governance of the sport under him has driven it into a ditch and sold it out to an elite audience who largely lack a real PASSION for the sport? No. And let’s be clear, saying the FIA are fully in charge of the governance is naive. Bernie engineered the ‘committee’ decision making from the teams that has led to an almost complete paralysis of decision making from all parties.
But do I have some respect for him finally saying all this? Saying that he made some dodgy decisions that have alienated audiences, priced passionate fans out of viewing the sport and that he sold his soul to make his employers rich at the complete expense of the sport? Yes. Doesn’t mean I like him, and the facts of what he has done, the negative impact of his goals and the dwindling audiences can’t be denied. All in the pursuit of money. He’s said it himself.
I haven’t loved the sport for as long as others in here but long enough that having watched it since I was six, now as an adult I have worked long enough to have the income to still be able to afford to attend a few races per year and pay per view on the TV. I just chose not to any longer because I see what tracks now have to resort to in order to make ends meet on the deals they had to cut with Bernie. Which I find heart breaking and I say without a shred of the ‘rose tinted’ either.
That’s my ‘two pints in me at the pub’ opinion.
That he came out and admitted that out loud, I have some respect for.
Do I like the facts that the vulture approach of CVC, the business goals Bernie worked to and governance of the sport under him has driven it into a ditch and sold it out to an elite audience who largely lack a real PASSION for the sport? No. And let’s be clear, saying the FIA are fully in charge of the governance is naive. Bernie engineered the ‘committee’ decision making from the teams that has led to an almost complete paralysis of decision making from all parties.
But do I have some respect for him finally saying all this? Saying that he made some dodgy decisions that have alienated audiences, priced passionate fans out of viewing the sport and that he sold his soul to make his employers rich at the complete expense of the sport? Yes. Doesn’t mean I like him, and the facts of what he has done, the negative impact of his goals and the dwindling audiences can’t be denied. All in the pursuit of money. He’s said it himself.
I haven’t loved the sport for as long as others in here but long enough that having watched it since I was six, now as an adult I have worked long enough to have the income to still be able to afford to attend a few races per year and pay per view on the TV. I just chose not to any longer because I see what tracks now have to resort to in order to make ends meet on the deals they had to cut with Bernie. Which I find heart breaking and I say without a shred of the ‘rose tinted’ either.
That’s my ‘two pints in me at the pub’ opinion.
Edited by spunkytherabbit on Monday 17th April 19:38
My original point was never about whether he did a good job or not, it was that he avoided responsibility for anything at all, whilst pulling strings / blackmailing / bribing the big teams in the background. All the time he was moaning in public about the sport HE ran and put it in the very state he moaned about.
...and before anyone gets too excited, what else would you call his "heritage team" payments (£100 million for Ferrari, for, well, being Ferrari), with the clear and present threat of removal, if his decisions / ideas not ratified by the teams?
Any 5 year old knows it's easy to admit you've done something wrong AFTER you've been caught; the HONEST thing to do is admit you were wrong before the problem emerges.
...and before anyone gets too excited, what else would you call his "heritage team" payments (£100 million for Ferrari, for, well, being Ferrari), with the clear and present threat of removal, if his decisions / ideas not ratified by the teams?
Any 5 year old knows it's easy to admit you've done something wrong AFTER you've been caught; the HONEST thing to do is admit you were wrong before the problem emerges.
JonChalk said:
My original point was never about whether he did a good job or not, it was that he avoided responsibility for anything at all, whilst pulling strings / blackmailing / bribing the big teams in the background. All the time he was moaning in public about the sport HE ran and put it in the very state he moaned about.
...and before anyone gets too excited, what else would you call his "heritage team" payments (£100 million for Ferrari, for, well, being Ferrari), with the clear and present threat of removal, if his decisions / ideas not ratified by the teams?
Any 5 year old knows it's easy to admit you've done something wrong AFTER you've been caught; the HONEST thing to do is admit you were wrong before the problem emerges.
I was getting embroiled in the posts since with my reply. Going with the flow.......and before anyone gets too excited, what else would you call his "heritage team" payments (£100 million for Ferrari, for, well, being Ferrari), with the clear and present threat of removal, if his decisions / ideas not ratified by the teams?
Any 5 year old knows it's easy to admit you've done something wrong AFTER you've been caught; the HONEST thing to do is admit you were wrong before the problem emerges.
Gotta agree with you. His approach was divide and conquer after all. FOTA was THE prime example. Foster collaboration, get Mclaren and Ferrari to bury the hatchet and think they were leading a common fight, then whisper in Ferrari's ear and get them to leave FOTA on the back of an individual deal... then FOTA collapses and power left for grabs after Mad Max exits then falls back to Bernie.
The respect was grudging, I should have said!
Derek Smith said:
You appear to be criticising me for something I didn’t say.
I would suggest that the majority of people know that most companies try to produce the same product, but merely go about it in different ways. Liberty have bought into F1 because they believe they will be able to make a profit. I was under the, apparently mistaken, belief that this is so obvious that it does not need to be mentioned.
If Liberty are not in F1 to make money then it is probable that they will fail and maybe even take F1 with them, so let’s hope they do make a profit in one way or another.
So I’m bemused by your money, money, money comment. It has no relevance to anything I posted.
Back to the subject; there are many ways to measure the health of the sport: the number of cars on the grid, the viewing figures, the amount of investment from outside. Lots of ways. One way is the long term viability.
I don’t think the sport was in a healthy condition when Liberty took over.
If you read my posts -, I nearly typed carefully, but I think merely reading with an open mind is required - you will see that I criticise those who eulogise Ecclestone.
I hope that Liberty will change things for the better. They will come in with new ideas, and we have seen some of these already despite the company buying into a product with long term agreements, contracts and concords. I doubt that we will be able to tell until 2020 if we they will make a significant improvement.
It’s a sport. It’s a sport that I’ve followed for over 50 years, so it is obvious that I enjoy it. I’m all for chats about what’s going on. Others have ideas which contradict my point of view. It doesn’t make me or them wrong, we're probably approaching the situation from a different angle.
I look upon forums in the same way as a chat in a pub or club. So if you disagree with me, I’m happy to read what you say and carry on with the discussion. Personal criticism, on the other hand, is rude and is somewhat out of order.
You've constantly moaned about Bernie, complaining he's after the money and to hell with all the rest of it. Your posts over the years have laid the blame solely at his door.I would suggest that the majority of people know that most companies try to produce the same product, but merely go about it in different ways. Liberty have bought into F1 because they believe they will be able to make a profit. I was under the, apparently mistaken, belief that this is so obvious that it does not need to be mentioned.
If Liberty are not in F1 to make money then it is probable that they will fail and maybe even take F1 with them, so let’s hope they do make a profit in one way or another.
So I’m bemused by your money, money, money comment. It has no relevance to anything I posted.
Back to the subject; there are many ways to measure the health of the sport: the number of cars on the grid, the viewing figures, the amount of investment from outside. Lots of ways. One way is the long term viability.
I don’t think the sport was in a healthy condition when Liberty took over.
If you read my posts -, I nearly typed carefully, but I think merely reading with an open mind is required - you will see that I criticise those who eulogise Ecclestone.
I hope that Liberty will change things for the better. They will come in with new ideas, and we have seen some of these already despite the company buying into a product with long term agreements, contracts and concords. I doubt that we will be able to tell until 2020 if we they will make a significant improvement.
It’s a sport. It’s a sport that I’ve followed for over 50 years, so it is obvious that I enjoy it. I’m all for chats about what’s going on. Others have ideas which contradict my point of view. It doesn’t make me or them wrong, we're probably approaching the situation from a different angle.
I look upon forums in the same way as a chat in a pub or club. So if you disagree with me, I’m happy to read what you say and carry on with the discussion. Personal criticism, on the other hand, is rude and is somewhat out of order.
You now appear to think that everything will be wonderful again because LM have taken over.
Neither are true.
spunkytherabbit said:
I have some respect for Bernie’s honesty. Everyone knew what his job actually was to do – make as big a profit for the owners of F1 and do so for as long as could be sustained before risks became issues large enough to show a sustained drop in income. Then they’d get out fast. Which they’ve done.
That he came out and admitted that out loud, I have some respect for.
Do I like the facts that the vulture approach of CVC, the business goals Bernie worked to and governance of the sport under him has driven it into a ditch and sold it out to an elite audience who largely lack a real PASSION for the sport? No. And let’s be clear, saying the FIA are fully in charge of the governance is naive. Bernie engineered the ‘committee’ decision making from the teams that has led to an almost complete paralysis of decision making from all parties.
But do I have some respect for him finally saying all this? Saying that he made some dodgy decisions that have alienated audiences, priced passionate fans out of viewing the sport and that he sold his soul to make his employers rich at the complete expense of the sport? Yes. Doesn’t mean I like him, and the facts of what he has done, the negative impact of his goals and the dwindling audiences can’t be denied. All in the pursuit of money. He’s said it himself.
I haven’t loved the sport for as long as others in here but long enough that having watched it since I was six, now as an adult I have worked long enough to have the income to still be able to afford to attend a few races per year and pay per view on the TV. I just chose not to any longer because I see what tracks now have to resort to in order to make ends meet on the deals they had to cut with Bernie. Which I find heart breaking and I say without a shred of the ‘rose tinted’ either.
That’s my ‘two pints in me at the pub’ opinion.
If libertys only model is to keep expanding the calendar, not very scientific is it, very lazy approach, nwtf that the small teams would burn out. Not heard Brawn say anything yet, who floated the 25 race a year calendar? That he came out and admitted that out loud, I have some respect for.
Do I like the facts that the vulture approach of CVC, the business goals Bernie worked to and governance of the sport under him has driven it into a ditch and sold it out to an elite audience who largely lack a real PASSION for the sport? No. And let’s be clear, saying the FIA are fully in charge of the governance is naive. Bernie engineered the ‘committee’ decision making from the teams that has led to an almost complete paralysis of decision making from all parties.
But do I have some respect for him finally saying all this? Saying that he made some dodgy decisions that have alienated audiences, priced passionate fans out of viewing the sport and that he sold his soul to make his employers rich at the complete expense of the sport? Yes. Doesn’t mean I like him, and the facts of what he has done, the negative impact of his goals and the dwindling audiences can’t be denied. All in the pursuit of money. He’s said it himself.
I haven’t loved the sport for as long as others in here but long enough that having watched it since I was six, now as an adult I have worked long enough to have the income to still be able to afford to attend a few races per year and pay per view on the TV. I just chose not to any longer because I see what tracks now have to resort to in order to make ends meet on the deals they had to cut with Bernie. Which I find heart breaking and I say without a shred of the ‘rose tinted’ either.
That’s my ‘two pints in me at the pub’ opinion.
Edited by spunkytherabbit on Monday 17th April 19:38
Crafty_ said:
You've constantly moaned about Bernie, complaining he's after the money and to hell with all the rest of it. Your posts over the years have laid the blame solely at his door.
You now appear to think that everything will be wonderful again because LM have taken over.
Neither are true.
Is there any doubt that Ecclestone was after the money and not concerned with the future of F1 nor the fans? You now appear to think that everything will be wonderful again because LM have taken over.
Neither are true.
I have criticised Ecclestone over the years and for good reason. Given the state of F1 when he left, I think I'm vindicated.
I have not, by any means, suggested that he's solely to blame. That's a farcical suggestion and way, way wide of the mark. In fact even wider than way, way.
I have not suggested that everything will be milk and honey when he leaves. To say that means that you haven't considered my main point despite me belabouring it. I said, a number of times, that he'd most likely leave the sport in a parlous state. I've been proved right.
However, I post to challenge those who think he has been good for the sport. Such a point of view needs challenging. I am bemused by those who think that he's concerned about the sport beyond what it brings to him. The evidence of what the bloke has done is available online for those who wish to research it. I do and have done.
By all means disagree with me. I'm also happy to be challenged. However please keep it to things I have said. I mean, 'wonderful again'? It's just silly to suggest that.
I think, from a fan's perspective, Liberty will probably produce a better product. We have already seen some movement, and this despite the restrictive contracts and agreements they now suffer under. But then, I don't know of course. Given the problems with the sport, they've got an uphill struggle.
Courtesy of Ecclestone.
Derek Smith said:
I have criticised Ecclestone over the years and for good reason. Given the state of F1 when he left, I think I'm vindicated.
Worth Billions of dollars, made Ron, Frank et al incredibly rich and given their companies the chances to employ thousands of Brits. Its on TV in the vast majority of countries in the world. Yeah what a terrible influence he's been 
Derek Smith said:
However, I post to challenge those who think he has been good for the sport. Such a point of view needs challenging. I am bemused by those who think that he's concerned about the sport beyond what it brings to him. The evidence of what the bloke has done is available online for those who wish to research it. I do and have done.
And yet you working for your former employer was you being concerned for anything other than your career? IT was ALL about you gaining from your career. Fundamentally legal power over others. That's why 99% of people in that profession do it. But that's somehow a more noble pursuit that just doing it for the money.
I am with Derek - BCE was undoubtedly a benign influence in the 70s and 80s but since then ? Grands Prix held in dodgy countries to boost the ego of dodgy politicians . constant threats to the host countries of GPs whose governments won't pay(and rightly ) like Britain, Germany , France , (ie the same countries who made the sport) , can't resist sharing his crass , sexist and 50 years out of date personal politics etc etc .
He has become grotesquely, obscenely rich out of a sport which but for his former mate Max , should never have been for sale in the first place. I am not remotely interested in how much money he made for Ronzo and Frank - why on earth should I be ? I am interested in motor racing not the Sunday Times Rich List . My first GP cost me the equivalent of £30 to get in and nobody minded me wandering through the paddock - now ? Not a bloody chance - what is it - £200 and you can only get near an F1 car if you are Naomi Campbell....
He has become grotesquely, obscenely rich out of a sport which but for his former mate Max , should never have been for sale in the first place. I am not remotely interested in how much money he made for Ronzo and Frank - why on earth should I be ? I am interested in motor racing not the Sunday Times Rich List . My first GP cost me the equivalent of £30 to get in and nobody minded me wandering through the paddock - now ? Not a bloody chance - what is it - £200 and you can only get near an F1 car if you are Naomi Campbell....
coppice said:
I am with Derek - BCE was undoubtedly a benign influence in the 70s and 80s but since then ? Grands Prix held in dodgy countries to boost the ego of dodgy politicians . constant threats to the host countries of GPs whose governments won't pay(and rightly ) like Britain, Germany , France , (ie the same countries who made the sport) , can't resist sharing his crass , sexist and 50 years out of date personal politics etc etc .
He has become grotesquely, obscenely rich out of a sport which but for his former mate Max , should never have been for sale in the first place. I am not remotely interested in how much money he made for Ronzo and Frank - why on earth should I be ? I am interested in motor racing not the Sunday Times Rich List . My first GP cost me the equivalent of £30 to get in and nobody minded me wandering through the paddock - now ? Not a bloody chance - what is it - £200 and you can only get near an F1 car if you are Naomi Campbell....
I agree with this.He has become grotesquely, obscenely rich out of a sport which but for his former mate Max , should never have been for sale in the first place. I am not remotely interested in how much money he made for Ronzo and Frank - why on earth should I be ? I am interested in motor racing not the Sunday Times Rich List . My first GP cost me the equivalent of £30 to get in and nobody minded me wandering through the paddock - now ? Not a bloody chance - what is it - £200 and you can only get near an F1 car if you are Naomi Campbell....
Crafty_ said:
And LM have already said they will continue with Pay TV. They've suggested pushing the teams to do more races. They've talked about doing more social media, but have yet to do anything.
So they are making a lot of noise but not actually doing anything to CVC & Bernie at the moment. Jury is still out.
Do you not follow the official F1 twitter account ? They're often tweeting video clips, exclusive on board footage, etc. Very different to last year. They're also much more active on Facebook.So they are making a lot of noise but not actually doing anything to CVC & Bernie at the moment. Jury is still out.
Am I the only one who found his deal making fascinating?
He successfully negotiated with World leaders and businessmen from all corners of the globe, nearly always to his/F1's benefit.
Personally I think it highly unlikely that the man with the improbable moustache will be able to fill his boots, but will see. To me it's all part of the show.
He successfully negotiated with World leaders and businessmen from all corners of the globe, nearly always to his/F1's benefit.
Personally I think it highly unlikely that the man with the improbable moustache will be able to fill his boots, but will see. To me it's all part of the show.
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