Kubica back in an F1 car
Discussion
HighwayStar said:
I doubt Williams think it's great/idea having TWO paid drivers in the car... My thinking is it's what they need for right now and hopefully as things improve they move forward with better drivers.
Jim, who would you put in the car. Not who you'd like to see in it. Who would you put in the car who is available, we know can do a good job, who isn't a pay driver? I'm not saying there isn't anyone, you're a total PITA but you know a bit too. So lets go the other way. Who?
Clearly Kubica was not fit/fast enough during the test. So he was not going to be in the picture as far as Williams were concerned.Jim, who would you put in the car. Not who you'd like to see in it. Who would you put in the car who is available, we know can do a good job, who isn't a pay driver? I'm not saying there isn't anyone, you're a total PITA but you know a bit too. So lets go the other way. Who?
Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
HustleRussell said:
So Jim you believe that Stroll cannot / will not improve? Why?
Also if you now acknowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica, given the fact that Stroll is contracted for two more seasons, how can you say for sure that Kubica was the only choice for Williams if they are serious about racing?
Stroll is purely there due to his backers. This just does not sit well with me when talent should be above someone with cash. Why do you think he was not progressing quickly at the Ferrari academy. Also if you now acknowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica, given the fact that Stroll is contracted for two more seasons, how can you say for sure that Kubica was the only choice for Williams if they are serious about racing?
No I do knowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica during the test. The information released by Williams proves this fact.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out during 2018 but I can only see things getting worse.
Good to see you are maintaining your previous level of selective ignorance when it comes to the Abu Dhabi test comparison and the speculative analysis made available by a plethora of journos.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
It will be interesting to see how this pans out during 2018 but I can only see things getting worse.
Of course two rookies are going to be worse than one rookie and Felipe Massa. Massa has left the table and Williams are left to feast on the scraps.ELUSIVEJIM said:
Clearly Kubica was not fit/fast enough during the test. So he was not going to be in the picture as far as Williams were concerned.
Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
Stroll is there, it doesn't appear that Williams are inclined or able to get rid of him. They have only one seat available.Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
I agree entirely that Kvyat and Wehrlein probably would've been as good or better than Sirotkin, we'll probably never know for sure- but unfortunately Williams are in a situation where their mind can be made up by Rubles. It doesn't make that decision a bad decision, it's just a different compromise. To say that you want an historic team to fail just so that you can say "I told you so" reveals a lot about your attitude towards the sport and this forum.
Money talks. Strategically Williams need to be financially sound until the current Concorde Agreement expires in 2020, I expect that Stroll and Sirotkin are factors in this plan. The headache for Williams is that in addition to Force India they now have to contend with and plan for the resurgence of mid-field teams like Renault and McLaren in the Constructors championship's prize fund. Unless Paddy Lowe has found a technological trump card (which is remote given the stability of the regulations), then realistically they will be fighting to stay ahead of the Torro Rosso, Hass and Sauber cars, so a good day will be getting out of Q2 with a chance of a top-10 finish. It's going to be a long season for them.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Clearly Kubica was not fit/fast enough during the test. So he was not going to be in the picture as far as Williams were concerned.
Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
Wehrlein is fast, but not enough experience to lead a team. Ideal number 2 for another season.Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
Is Kvyat mentally robust enough given all that happened?
HustleRussell said:
Stroll is there, it doesn't appear that Williams are inclined or able to get rid of him. They have only one seat available.
I agree entirely that Kvyat and Wehrlein probably would've been as good or better than Sirotkin, we'll probably never know for sure- but unfortunately Williams are in a situation where their mind can be made up by Rubles. It doesn't make that decision a bad decision, it's just a different compromise. To say that you want an historic team to fail just so that you can say "I told you so" reveals a lot about your attitude towards the sport and this forum.
Well hopefully for Williams Sirotkin turns out to be a wonder kid and gets the teams the points which are so valuable.I agree entirely that Kvyat and Wehrlein probably would've been as good or better than Sirotkin, we'll probably never know for sure- but unfortunately Williams are in a situation where their mind can be made up by Rubles. It doesn't make that decision a bad decision, it's just a different compromise. To say that you want an historic team to fail just so that you can say "I told you so" reveals a lot about your attitude towards the sport and this forum.
Yes stating "I hope Williams score no points" was in the heat of the moment.
Vaud said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Clearly Kubica was not fit/fast enough during the test. So he was not going to be in the picture as far as Williams were concerned.
Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
Wehrlein is fast, but not enough experience to lead a team. Ideal number 2 for another season.Personally I would have had Pascal Wehrlein and Daniil Kvyat but at the same test as Kubica, Stroll and Sirotkins.
Wehrlein was able to score points in a terrible Sauber and Kyvat away from the Red Bull cloud would have been given a new lease of life IMO.
Ferrari obviously think more of him by giving him a development role.
Is Kvyat mentally robust enough given all that happened?
HighwayStar said:
Kyvat always struck me as a driver who'd watched too many Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton races... Trying to overtake the way they did, without the skill or race craft. Attempting reckless moves, tangling with other drivers, losing bodywork and offs. Poor execution, no elegance at all.
When you look back to 2015 he did out score Ricciardo during that season which is no mean feat.He just seemed to implode during the 2016 season but again what pressures were being put on him behind the scenes.
Yes a driver not handling pressure is not good which is perhaps why he was left on the shelf.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
HighwayStar said:
Kyvat always struck me as a driver who'd watched too many Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton races... Trying to overtake the way they did, without the skill or race craft. Attempting reckless moves, tangling with other drivers, losing bodywork and offs. Poor execution, no elegance at all.
When you look back to 2015 he did out score Ricciardo during that season which is no mean feat.He just seemed to implode during the 2016 season but again what pressures were being put on him behind the scenes.
Yes a driver not handling pressure is not good which is perhaps why he was left on the shelf.
Pedro de la Rosa was happy to storm round Fiorano, endless test laps. No pressure. Kvyat, mainly simulator work these days I'd imagine.
[quote=HighwayStar]
As you were saying Ferrari see enough potential to have him as a development driver but... I can't remember anytime Ferrari has promoted one of their own development drivers to the race team...? Yes they have Charles Leclerc and Antonio Giovinazzi at Sauber as driver and racer respectively but they've always had another teams WC or ex WC lured by the romance of the prancing horse.
Pedro de la Rosa was happy to storm round Fiorano, endless test laps. No pressure. Kvyat, mainly simulator work these days I'd imagine.
Yes he is still in F1 but it must be a hard pill to swallow.
I very much doubt we will see him again on a F1 grid.
As you were saying Ferrari see enough potential to have him as a development driver but... I can't remember anytime Ferrari has promoted one of their own development drivers to the race team...? Yes they have Charles Leclerc and Antonio Giovinazzi at Sauber as driver and racer respectively but they've always had another teams WC or ex WC lured by the romance of the prancing horse.
Pedro de la Rosa was happy to storm round Fiorano, endless test laps. No pressure. Kvyat, mainly simulator work these days I'd imagine.
Yes he is still in F1 but it must be a hard pill to swallow.
I very much doubt we will see him again on a F1 grid.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Car-Matt said:
So EXACTLY as I said, the issue isn’t the money but your perceived view of the drivers capability.
A) Good to know you’re such an expert and have all the data to look at to make those statements
B) if Williams produced a good car AND race engineer it well then the drivers WILL produce the results. Williams issues as stated are producing cars that are not up to scratch, nothing to do with drivers. The drivers may add the last couple of % but Williams are a long way off needing that even if their assumed 2018 lineup are deficient, which given the testing times Sirotkin was faster than Kubica and Stroll was within a tenth. I REALLY don’t understand why the apparent decision to not take Kubica has blurred your vision of reality so badly. The guy wasn’t that fast in testing as is a huge risk in terms of health AND knows nothing of the Pirelli tyres. Not ideal when trying to build a decent car. If they had a strong team leader then he may be worth a punt as a number 2 but Stroll isn’t a leader and that’s not his fault or responsibility after 1 season. There is nothing wrong with the Williams (alleged) decision about Kubica.
If Williams produced a good car and were the fastest on the grid of course the drivers are going to perform well. But do you really think the two paying drivers Williams have signed will be stars of the future? Stroll clearly isn't but obviously we have to wait and see regarding Sirokin.A) Good to know you’re such an expert and have all the data to look at to make those statements
B) if Williams produced a good car AND race engineer it well then the drivers WILL produce the results. Williams issues as stated are producing cars that are not up to scratch, nothing to do with drivers. The drivers may add the last couple of % but Williams are a long way off needing that even if their assumed 2018 lineup are deficient, which given the testing times Sirotkin was faster than Kubica and Stroll was within a tenth. I REALLY don’t understand why the apparent decision to not take Kubica has blurred your vision of reality so badly. The guy wasn’t that fast in testing as is a huge risk in terms of health AND knows nothing of the Pirelli tyres. Not ideal when trying to build a decent car. If they had a strong team leader then he may be worth a punt as a number 2 but Stroll isn’t a leader and that’s not his fault or responsibility after 1 season. There is nothing wrong with the Williams (alleged) decision about Kubica.
It is all very well stating Kubica was not fit and knows nothing about the Pirelli tyres but this again shows how poor Stroll is when he has the experience. Stroll was the full time Williams driver in 2017 and yet someone with a clear disadvantage and little knowledge of the new cars beats his time. Then for Sirokin to be over a second faster is pretty shocking.
Obviously with more seat time Kubica would have been much closer to Sirokin come the start of the 2018 season but where is Stroll going to find anymore speed?
Again it is clear taking on TWO paid drivers might be great in the short term but it will cost Williams more in results having at least one driver who should not be in a F1 car.
Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 15th January 11:30
Why would Kubica be able to find more time? Plenty of drivers get/have got up to speed in one off tests over the years, lots of very well documented examples.
It is not clear that two 'Pay' drivers are a problem in the long run. Sirotkin is clearly talented and Stroll is not the liability you make him out to be.
Its clear that if they produce a rubbish car they are in trouble and spending the development budget on a driver that may find them a tenth or two is not the best investment of resources.
Basically you're just annoyed that Williams did'nt choose Kubica and you've had a rant about them and the criticism is emotional rather than objective.
Car-Matt said:
It is not clear that two 'Pay' drivers are a problem in the long run. Sirotkin is clearly talented and Stroll is not the liability you make him out to be.
I agree, Stroll is no Pastor Maldanado (and even he had his strengths)I do worry that neither Sirotkin or Stroll have the depth of development experience that I think Williams need - do they really need a Jenson/Alonso/etc depth of experience? (though I know no-one is available)
Mark-C said:
HighwayStar said:
I can't remember anytime Ferrari has promoted one of their own development drivers to the race team...?
Luca Badoer 
I now you were jesting....He doesn't count, his butt would never have been in the car for the races if it wasn't for Massa being injured.
Poor Badoer wasn't even first choice to step in.
Vaud said:
I agree, Stroll is no Pastor Maldanado (and even he had his strengths)
Pastor got a race win remember. In my eyes they are equal(ly average). Neither are ever going to feature in anyone's top 10 on any grid. Kyvat might have been a better bet than sirotkin but (if it couldn't have been kubica) I'd like to have seen JEV back - always thought it was a bit harsh how he left F1 As for Paddy Lowe bringing the team back - what's his track record? (Genuine question - not trying to say he can't)
Edited by skinny on Monday 15th January 19:36
skinny said:
Vaud said:
I agree, Stroll is no Pastor Maldanado (and even he had his strengths)
Pastor got a race win remember. In my eyes they are equal(ly average). Neither are ever going to feature in anyone's top 10 on any grid. Kyvat might have been a better bet than sirotkin but (if it couldn't have been kubica) I'd like to have seen JEV back - always thought it was a bit harsh how he left F1 As for Paddy Lowe bringing the team back - what's his track record? (Genuine question - not trying to say he can't)
Edited by skinny on Monday 15th January 19:36
Mclaren
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22596068
Mercedes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38571408
HighwayStar said:
skinny said:
Vaud said:
I agree, Stroll is no Pastor Maldanado (and even he had his strengths)
Pastor got a race win remember. In my eyes they are equal(ly average). Neither are ever going to feature in anyone's top 10 on any grid. Kyvat might have been a better bet than sirotkin but (if it couldn't have been kubica) I'd like to have seen JEV back - always thought it was a bit harsh how he left F1 As for Paddy Lowe bringing the team back - what's his track record? (Genuine question - not trying to say he can't)
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 15th January 19:36
Mclaren
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/22596068
Mercedes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38571408
"Success in Formula 1 is not about single individuals but about the strength in depth and technical capability of an organisation. We have the talent in place to continue our success of recent years."
The team and technical capability was well settled before Lowe arrived and their early success, from 2014, was in no little way down to having the best engine.
Lowe was quite popular at Mercedes, but I don’t think his reputation has been proved by his time there.
If he turns Williams around that will do the trick!!
skinny said:
Pastor got a race win remember. In my eyes they are equal(ly average). Neither are ever going to feature in anyone's top 10 on any grid. Kyvat might have been a better bet than sirotkin but (if it couldn't have been kubica) I'd like to have seen JEV back - always thought it was a bit harsh how he left F1
As for Paddy Lowe bringing the team back - what's his track record? (Genuine question - not trying to say he can't)
Oh I know. I though Pastor was one of those odd drivers - on his day, brilliant; very very quick. Even Alonso respected his Barcelona drive, just a bit too peaky and inconsistent. Shame really, he had raw speed.As for Paddy Lowe bringing the team back - what's his track record? (Genuine question - not trying to say he can't)
Paddy is very well regarded. It got a bit crowded at Mercedes and he swapped his talent for equity at Williams (IIR Frank gave up some of his shares, or they diluted the family shares, I can't remember)
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff